Author Topic: What would you do ... (Read 2708 times)

williamlayton · « **Reply #30 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:31:03 AM »

This is a good discussion.
Is this not what many corporations did and asked their employees to do during the Depression.
It was a way to prevent layoffs.
That was then and now is now.
I see two distinct differences. 1) Greed and 2) Greed. One from both end of the broomstick.
I have maintained, for more than a number of years now that America was due for a good fiscal cleaning. In the long run it will be a good thing, but this generation is going to have need to bite a pretty hard bullet.
A 25% across the board, top/bottom, would be a good thing, for a beginning plan. Some others might involve OT, pay hike concessions.
As an incintive--future pay increases could be in the form of a loan back to the company with interest accrued at bank rates for a given number of years.
Lots of option can be presented and studied. What works for one company might not be so good for another.
I appose withholding pay for overtime but might consider withholding the OT bonus of time and a half--each of these being negotiable.
We do need to do some things but both sides of the table need too ante up.
Blessings

magooch · « **Reply #31 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:42:10 AM »

Folks, this ain't the first recession/depression this country has ever had and it sure ain't going to be the last. One way for sure for us not to come out of it is to keep spending money we don't have, on things we don't need. The government and the people have been doing this for too long and it had to catch up to us eventually.

I'm not saying that the government shouldn't be looking for ways to prime the pump--it should. Government needs to work with private enterprise to develope things this country needs that will stimulate growth. Energy is one of the obvious things we need. Right now, the federal government is the problem standing right in the way of Nuclear power. It is also standing right in the way of exploration and utilization of our enourmous gas and oil reserves.

Government at all levels has got to cut back on services that we can do without and concentrate on things we absolutely have to have. The number of people working for my state has doubled in the last ten years and I'm sure other states have similar experience. The federal government is probably even worse. Heck, if Obama would get rid of his czars, and cut his travel in half, the federal budget might correct itself--not. But it would be a good start.

If and when we do recover, people have got to start saving for hard times and quit having childrean they can't afford. And finally, the number one thing that has got to happen is that we have to get rid of all the illegals and secure our borders.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2009, 04:09:51 AM »

I see the government as impeding buisiness with regulations.

Dee · « **Reply #33 on:** November 19, 2009, 04:14:11 AM »

Quote from: magooch on November 19, 2009, 03:42:10 AM

Folks, this ain't the first recession/depression this country has ever had and it sure ain't going to be the last. One way for sure for us not to come out of it is to keep spending money we don't have, on things we don't need. The government and the people have been doing this for too long and it had to catch up to us eventually.

I'm not saying that the government shouldn't be looking for ways to prime the pump--it should. Government needs to work with private enterprise to develope things this country needs that will stimulate growth. Energy is one of the obvious things we need. Right now, the federal government is the problem standing right in the way of Nuclear power. It is also standing right in the way of exploration and utilization of our enourmous gas and oil reserves.

Government at all levels has got to cut back on services that we can do without and concentrate on things we absolutely have to have. The number of people working for my state has doubled in the last ten years and I'm sure other states have similar experience. The federal government is probably even worse. Heck, if Obama would get rid of his czars, and cut his travel in half, the federal budget might correct itself--not. But it would be a good start.

If and when we do recover, people have got to start saving for hard times and quit having childrean they can't afford. And finally, the number one thing that has got to happen is that we have to get rid of all the illegals and secure our borders.

I agree 100%.

rex6666 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 19, 2009, 05:25:26 AM »

What is manufactured in the U.S. any more.
Bring the jobs home, yes it cost more to manufacture here, but it stays here,
make the offshore product cost as much, if they want to sell it here they can pay
some of our taxes. I know "all those poor starving people in those countries need jobs" well guess what so do some here.

I'm mad too Eddie

teamnelson · « **Reply #35 on:** November 19, 2009, 05:48:54 AM »

NGH, yeah, i'm worried about a legacy for all our children.
WL, yeah, greed on both ends.

Most folks I talk to believe it is somebody else's responsibility to fix what is broke. Somebody else needs to make the sacrifices. That line of thinking is what got us here and will take us off into 3rd world status. It's pretty sad that we mostly think were facing a major collapse so were clinging tightly to what we have left when a little sacrifice now might prevent saddling our kids with a bleak world. I've never really been talking about $.

jimster · « **Reply #36 on:** November 19, 2009, 07:38:52 AM »

Fact is the RIGHT thing for this country will require sacrifice on everyones part. But we won't do it because we fear.

TeamNelson, the hard fact is most all conservatives have been sacrificing for many years already. The Taxes we pay are enough... an average of 2.6 TRILLION every 12 months flow into Washington D.C.
That's Trillion with a T.

Yet...every piece of legislation they write has billions of dollars being funneled away to questionable places, and unconsitutional places. I do not need to sacrifice anything else until the government is under control, because with them out of control....none of us will ever sacrifice enough.

You have to fix the leak at some point so water does not have to be poured back in.

Your intentions are great....your end result will never change no matter what we do.

2.6 trillion....every 12 months....and they not only need more...they demand more. Think about it.
OK...2.1 Trillion these days, jobs are lost, but I'm sure taxes will keep going up.

I am confident I could run this country on less than 2.6 Trillion dollars, much less...if they let me be dictator for a year.

We already sacrificed more than enough for those who steal our money and wealth, and they sacrifice nothing.

Dee · « **Reply #37 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:04:38 AM »

Quote from: jimster on November 19, 2009, 07:38:52 AM

Fact is the RIGHT thing for this country will require sacrifice on everyones part. But we won't do it because we fear.

TeamNelson, the hard fact is most all conservatives have been sacrificing for many years already. The Taxes we pay are enough... an average of 2.6 TRILLION every 12 months flow into Washington D.C.
That's Trillion with a T.

Yet...every piece of legislation they write has billions of dollars being funneled away to questionable places, and unconsitutional places. I do not need to sacrifice anything else until the government is under control, because with them out of control....none of us will ever sacrifice enough.

You have to fix the leak at some point so water does not have to be poured back in.

Your intentions are great....your end result will never change no matter what we do.

2.6 trillion....every 12 months....and they not only need more...they demand more. Think about it.
OK...2.1 Trillion these days, jobs are lost, but I'm sure taxes will keep going up.

I am confident I could run this country on less than 2.6 Trillion dollars, much less...if they let me be dictator for a year.

We already sacrificed more than enough for those who steal our money and wealth, and they sacrifice nothing.

I don't think that could have been put any better. 100% agreement AGAIN! Excellent!

jjas · « **Reply #38 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:13:31 AM »

jimster

Quote

You have to fix the leak at some point so water does not have to be poured back in.

That's exactly right. When you have a leaky pipe or roof, you find the source of the leak, stop it, then repair the damage.

So how do we stop the leak in Washington? Stop voting for incumbents. Support a new face, with new ideas and a clean slate. Quit sending the same tired a$$ed people back to Washington and expecting a different result.

Will it fix it? I don't know, but it would sure be nice to see some of these people who never accomplish anything be sent home.

teamnelson · « **Reply #39 on:** November 19, 2009, 12:07:15 PM »

Sure, we pay taxes, we participate in elections, we post on Graybeard ... there is no question in my mind that SACRIFICE has NOT been unilaterally shared to date. But I think some of y'all are missing the forest for the trees. There is no single item fix for the system, and everytime I aggregate all the "broken" parts together, I see that fixing one will just break more stuff. If you're still hoping for equality or parity - the other side gets their due - then you truly have lost the big picture.

I keep bringing up the issue of immigration as an example and no one bites. Ok, let's kick all the illegals out of the country and seal the borders. Are YOU going to quit your job and go pick lettuce, or swing a hammer? Cause NO ONE is going to eat unless SOME ONE picks up the slack of probably 2 million laborers leaving.

For every single thing that makes you angry about the way things are, what are YOU doing about it, besides telling all of us how angry you are? Contacting your representatives in Congress ... but wait, I thought they couldn't be trusted? Voting in the elections ... but wait, this is the same government suspected of covering up 911, why would you trust elections? Going to Tea Parties? Lot different from a Tea Party in 2009 and a Tea Party in 1775. Join a pro-gun movement, sure ... we'll all have unlimited gun rights when the nation collapses.

What do you call doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results?

351 power · « **Reply #40 on:** November 19, 2009, 12:47:06 PM »

i've seen tv commercials lately where people get behind on their taxes. then they go to a company of lawyers that gets them off from paying. they end up paying 10% roughly. they are very proud of their govt fraud. so if you send all the lawyers to antartica they can't cause grief and those guys got to pay up. could help alot

Mohawk · « **Reply #41 on:** November 19, 2009, 12:56:57 PM »

I would take the pay cut, scrape by the best I could, because I swore to. That's what public servants do. Many, upon many public servants don't do their jobs for the money or benefits. They do their jobs, because that is what they are called to do. Sometimes, to some people, the need to serve is worth much more than a dollar amount.

beerbelly · « **Reply #42 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:26:20 PM »

Maybe some of those nasty old unions should unionize Wal-Mart, then maybe their ful-time employees could get 40 hours a week and make a decent living! Better yet maybe they could bankrupt the SOB's.
Beerbelly

mirage1988 · « **Reply #43 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:29:06 PM »

Every job I have ever had, I was held accountable for the work that I accomplished that day. Where is the accountability for the fools running our country? Why should we make more sacrifices so our "leaders" can spend more? I agree with william, it is a good discussion, although not very realistic on a national level. Most people do take pay cuts and reductions in hours to help their employers survive, but it needs to be across the board!

Matt · « **Reply #44 on:** November 19, 2009, 02:12:42 PM »

Quote from: 351 power on November 19, 2009, 12:47:06 PM

i've seen tv commercials lately where people get behind on their taxes. then they go to a company of lawyers that gets them off from paying. they end up paying 10% roughly. they are very proud of their govt fraud. so if you send all the lawyers to antartica they can't cause grief and those guys got to pay up. could help alot

Ok I have to jump in on this one... First of all those of you who think that your Individual Federal Income Taxes goes to help this economy in any way you are off base and misinformed. So where does it go? It goes to pay the “interest” on the money that the government borrows from the Federal Reserve and that’s it.

Now I hear people all the time crying cause some guy don’t pay his taxes or got off by only paying a fraction of what they said was owed and so on… Well if you would do just a little research you would find that the reason these “Companies” can get away with it is because most of them are former IRS agents who found out that what they were doing was unconstitutional and decided to change sides. I am not saying don’t pay your taxes but I do suggest that folks do a little research on the subject before getting all gung ho to give the IRS all their money. Oh and many may not be aware of this but if you read the IRS Tax Code you will find that the rules set in it ONLY APPLY TO THOSE WHO WORK FOR THE IRS and not the rest of us. But because of misinformation many think otherwise.

As to the original question. No The reason is I see no way that it would help the country and only help the big biz big government running it now. If say powderman took a 25% cut in pay then that money would simply go back to wal-mart and not the economy. It would mean that the people would have less money to spend and with the current economic system we have that would cause a huge drop in the value of the dollar.

I see where you are coming from TN but that method will not help and would do more harm. The framers of this country did not intend on the citizens to foot the bill for government. It should be borne by the companies and corporations that operate within our borders. Now at a local and even state level yes the public pays taxes to grow the communities but not on a federal level. One of the major problems is everyone is looking to come up with a way to make more money rather than cut spending. Why do we need so much government? It is because everybody has a hand out wanting their cut… If you want a cut get off your ass and do something to earn it is how I feel about it.

Matt

rio grande · « **Reply #45 on:** November 19, 2009, 02:22:52 PM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on November 18, 2009, 12:46:19 PM

If you knew that it would help the country get back to strong economic, political footing, how many out there would willingly continue in their present job at 75% the prevailing wage (25% pay cut), and the expectation that work will most often exceed 40 hours, with no overtime or holiday pay, capped annual raise at 2%, and right to work terms only - no union. Or even possibly leave their current position to work in mining, farming or public service (military, law enforcement, etc.) at the same reduced rate.

TN, you are a 'public servant', right? Have you taken a paycut lately? I sure have. Lost 10% of my base pay and all overtime, so my take-home compared to last year at this time is down about 30%.
About 40% of my co-workers were laid off. Men with families to care for, mostly.
I work in manufacturing - union?, forget that, it's 'right to work'.
I pay $170 a week for crappy health insurance for me and wife. I pay another $100-plus a week or so to pay the salaries of our 'public servants' who (cops and politicians and bureaucrats anyway) act as if they are our bosses, NOT our 'servants'.
But you know what? I'd sacrifice more - lots more - if we could get our United States house in order, with a government that really was BY the people and FOR the people.
Under this current government? NO WAY.

teamnelson · « **Reply #46 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:07:14 PM »

Matt, et al, it's never been about the $ - I think I said that already. I don't want citizens to foot the bill for anything; I'm a minarchist, remember?

Our forefathers risked all for a dream. America today has no dream; we will not risk. We are reduced to trying to reform. I don't think reformation of the existing system is possible. I think all adjustments applied are doomed to fail because the American people as a whole will not SACRIFICE their quality of life for the general good. I used an economic question to start the dialogue, and look at how quick we are to protect our $. Not one person yet has volunteered to replace an immigrant in the lettuce field if kicking them out is the best option, but that's the type of sacrifice your reform will require. That and more.

RG, this public servant's take home went up the last 3 years because I had combat zone tax exclusion for serving multiple tours in Iraq, while our gross adjusted 2% annually - still 10-15% below the national average prevailing wage. 25% of my guys were wounded, many permanently disabled, and 36 killed. We work alot of overtime, weekends, holidays ... gone a lot from family. Sacrifice comes in many forms, and yours is no more or less significant; its in each man's hands to do what he can where he is.

I'm with you, bro. Give me a government by the people and for the people and I'll keep on doing what I'm doing for a paycut if that's what it takes.

BBF · « **Reply #47 on:** November 19, 2009, 04:44:10 PM »

This just occured to me.

Is there less gold in Ft Knox now then trhere was 20 years ago?

If not then the gold is worth waay more paper money now then 20 years ago.
Which means the country really isn't broke just made to look like it.

teamnelson · « **Reply #48 on:** November 19, 2009, 05:48:16 PM »

That would only work if the value of gold has exceeded inflation.

Matt · « **Reply #49 on:** November 19, 2009, 06:12:25 PM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on November 19, 2009, 03:07:14 PM

Our forefathers risked all for a dream. America today has no dream; we will not risk. We are reduced to trying to reform. I don't think reformation of the existing system is possible. I think all adjustments applied are doomed to fail because the American people as a whole will not SACRIFICE their quality of life for the general good. I used an economic question to start the dialogue, and look at how quick we are to protect our $. Not one person yet has volunteered to replace an immigrant in the lettuce field if kicking them out is the best option, but that's the type of sacrifice your reform will require. That and more.

I agree 100% with you on that.... I would love to see an all out revolution and kick all the politians out of DC.

Matt

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #50 on:** November 19, 2009, 07:49:14 PM »

just a couple more bills like health care or cap and trade that will just about take up the value of all the gold in ft. knox

rio grande · « **Reply #51 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:47:42 PM »

TN, I didn't respond to the question about picking lettuce because it just seemed rhetorical. There are plenty of US citizens who would do that, and many other rough jobs such as meatpackers etc. as seen by the long lines of applicants after every big ICE raid.
My Dad worked in the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) during the Depression, when he was a kid, in East Texas cutting trees and brush and building roads. I'd do the same. I'd do more. I'd work in hospitals and old folks homes, I've raised kids, I've picked up s**t plenty of times.
BUT, I'm not doing it if some fat-cat affirmative action Sheila Jackson Lee types are living it up on my tax dollars. Or some paid-for politician is wasting our nations treasure, by sending our troops to fight in trillion$ senseless wars. Or if Ted Kennedy reruns are turning a blind eye to greedy companies sending all their manufacturing out of the country. Or George Bushites are looking the other way and whistling while millions of Mexicans are crossing the border for decades.
Sure, let's sacrifice, I'll do it. After some changes 'round here.
Maybe the discussion should be - how do we make these changes? Lot's of room for sacrifice there.

rio grande · « **Reply #52 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:52:28 PM »

Quote from: Redtail1949 on November 19, 2009, 07:49:14 PM

just a couple more bills like health care or cap and trade that will just about take up the value of all the gold in ft. knox

Gold in Fort Knox? Oh yeah, and there is a bank where all the social security dollars you've paid is kept in an account under your name. And it's Santa Claus that brings you presents at Christmas time.

teamnelson · « **Reply #53 on:** November 19, 2009, 10:05:01 PM »

RG, that's where I was hoping to go with this ... how do we make the changes? And do we make them now? Or wait until when? What is the flashpoint for change? What does it look like? An election? A tea party? Or rolling up the sleeves and hoisting the jolly Roger?

I'm getting tired of hashing out how many ways it's broke. And I don't like committees.

jimster · « **Reply #54 on:** November 20, 2009, 06:29:50 AM »

How do we make the changes? We probably are beyond being able to make changes the right way, since many people that live in this country think the government owes them something, and they vote for "stuff" instead of the bigger picture.

This leaves us without much of a way to change anything short of what our forefathers told us would happen eventually...it would boil down to powder and bullets. That don't sound good, but it seems our founders already knew that would have to happen, we just have trouble accepting that hard fact.

What am I doing now to change things? I'm doing my best to break the state and the feds by paying as few taxes as possible, and waiting until the very last day to pay anything at all. Also will make some cash on the side and not ever turn that in. Cutting back so much it actually will starve the State, and it's working well, Michigan is about to go under right now as a bunch of us that still have jobs have pulled back and live like we are in a depression. We refuse to spend anything we don't have to. I am cutting them off the same as I would cut off a kids money who didn't handle it well. The best way right now to fight this mess, is for every person to hold back the taxes, stop spending, find ways to slow down the flow of money to the governments...check the proper boxes on your W4 forms...save it all year long, maybe make a few bucks on it, then pull it out and pay on the last day. Starve em out. I do call my representatives, both my wife and I about once a week...they could care less. Leave the message and hang up.
Far as I'm concerned....the faster they all fall, the faster we can get to the powder and bullets thing, or a peaceful revolution at the voting booths...which I would prefer...but one or the other has to happen at some point.

For those that think I'm bordering on the illegal side trying to hold back taxes and not pay so much...your probably technically right...but it's also not legal to funel 8.5 billion bucks to Acorn, send my money to other countries for abortions, or support the funding for the study of pig oder...and thousands of things like that hidden in their legislation over many years.

Squib · « **Reply #55 on:** November 28, 2009, 04:54:12 PM »

jimster, they're researching pig odor to get away with the next round of pork bills

Squib · « **Reply #56 on:** November 29, 2009, 03:36:04 AM »

foreign lobbyists shouldn't be deported but burnt alive, possibly "steel horse" or something like that (a person sits on a sharp wedge, on a saddle, on a horse, with heavy weights chained to the wrists, and the horse walks around town until the person splits in half from the crotch up)

what's that called? I think the spaniards pioneered it? spanish horse maybe?

Squib · « **Reply #57 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:14:28 AM »

remember how the media brought up ted kennedy's death as a rallying point for obamacare.... what a joke! a rich guy with government priviledge can't survive despite all the strings he can pull... so the rest of us have a fighting chance with socialist medicine? because if doctors work as hard on me as they did on ted (they won't- I'm not high profile) I'm not gonna die of brain cancer as I reach the end of my life expectancy- obama ackbar

nw_hunter · « **Reply #58 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:38:38 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on November 19, 2009, 12:07:15 PM

I keep bringing up the issue of immigration as an example and no one bites. Ok, let's kick all the illegals out of the country and seal the borders. Are YOU going to quit your job and go pick lettuce, or swing a hammer? Cause NO ONE is going to eat unless SOME ONE picks up the slack of probably 2 million laborers leaving.

For every single thing that makes you angry about the way things are, what are YOU doing about it, besides telling all of us how angry you are? Contacting your representatives in Congress ... but wait, I thought they couldn't be trusted? Voting in the elections ... but wait, this is the same government suspected of covering up 911, why would you trust elections? Going to Tea Parties? Lot different from a Tea Party in 2009 and a Tea Party in 1775. Join a pro-gun movement, sure ... we'll all have unlimited gun rights when the nation collapses.
***************************************************************

You bring up the issue of immigration, and in the next sentence say "Illegal's" Which one is it? Immigration done legally or illegally?

Originally, temporary workers were allowed to come into this country to work during the harvest.
This was back in the day when most was done manually and we didn't have enough citizens to do the job.

Don't give me this ........doing jobs Americans won't do CRAP!
I worked in the home construction industry for many years.My son and I, had a small concrete business here in the NW.Greedy people, allowed to hire Illegals drove us out of business. We paid our cement finishers a good wage, and made a good living ourselves. These....willing to do jobs Americans won't do criminals from south of our border, were paid wages our employees couldn't live on.

Our greedy politicians allowed these criminals to invade our country, and steal jobs from hard working AMERICANS.

As far as your question................. Are you willing to go pick lettuce, and swing a hammer? Your fellow Americans were willing, and have picked crops and swung a hammer.

Have you Parson? And by the way........Have you been to a tea party lately? I doubt it, but perhaps you should try!

Squib · « **Reply #59 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:49:31 AM »

you're right about the immigration NW. american's won't do back-breaking labor for pay that won't sustain a family. that's not because white people are lazy but because mexicans tore out the foundation and let the wages hit rock bottom... so now they're the only ones willing to work like slaves and live like refugees. the thing is if those same people were around for awhile then they would also want more money but as soon as they gripe, they're replaced by more mexicans...

I know that if I was hungry/thirsty/sick/poor, a walk through a desert and a jump over a fence wouldn't stop me from getting to some food/clean water/US hospital coverage for free/ a wage to actually get food-water-clothing. I don't like the mexicans but I can't blame them.. we need to shut the border down with a minefield.