Author Topic: Hunting with 38 Super  (Read 3390 times)

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Offline rawhidekid

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Hunting with 38 Super
« on: November 20, 2009, 04:37:40 AM »
Has anyone used the 38 Super to hunt small game?  I have been seeing loading data on some heavier bullets, Lyman 47th edition lists a 158 grn cast at 1133 fps. A 147 Hp at 1150 fps in the new Hornady manual 7th edition.  These should be good at 75 yards or less on game up to whitetail I would think.  Anyone had any first hand knowledge would be greatly appreciated. 8)   Rawhidekid
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2009, 06:40:36 AM »
All I am going to say is, I would not do it!
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline moxgrove

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2009, 07:58:16 AM »
I have hunted rabbits with an old .38 super Llama . It blows em up real good . Head shots only. Cast bullets might be the ticket.

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 08:38:41 AM »
  Sounds about equal to a 38 special.  I'd shoot something small with it, given a good bullet shape.  Anything up to a coyote.

  Sorry I'm not contributing first hand information.  I too am interested to read what comes out.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2009, 09:17:27 AM »
When S&W first brought out the 38 Super, they stated it would bring down any game animal in North America.  The 125 gr bullet can be driven at near 357 velocity and people think it is good.  The Corbon loading is around 1400fps in 125.  Speer #12 lists the 124 gr Hp at 1312 fps with blue dot powder, again that is .357 velocity.  I just don't see why one would be good and not the other. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline moxgrove

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2009, 09:50:42 AM »
It works just fine. The hollow points just wreck meat if you don't take head shots. cast or fmj's would be just fine too. I just used what I had. At 19 my budget was limited.
  I would think you could take ccoyotes out to 75 yards or so if you are up to it. The 38 super shoots plenty flat.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 12:56:57 PM »
moxgrove;  thanks for your input.  I just finihed rereading the test on the Kimber MKII in 38 Super.  They stated small game up to and including small whitetails.  I was drawn this year and hunted with my 45 Colt, but didn't evan see one.  The whitetails out here in Az run about the size of a Great Dane.  The area I had drawn is mainly a Mule deer location. 8)  Again thanks, rawhidekid
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline moxgrove

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 01:24:05 PM »
Sorry you didn't get your deer. I think you were wise to go heavier for Mule deer. I wouldn't hesitate to take a smallish whitetail with the super though. I had a neighbor who swore by the 130 gr fmj for putting down slaughter cattle. I think the Super is one of those "sleeper" cartridges like the 41 mag and 10mm that people spend time obsessing on what thay're not instead of appreciating what they are. Powerful accurate cartridges that don't break a guy's wrists and still can do the vast majority of what needs to be done.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 06:27:25 PM »
I know what you mean, I carried a 41 mag as duty gun with the Arizona Rangers after I retired from the Air Force.  Then got the bug for the 10mm and shot it for a while.  Got into the Cowboy Shooting and used 357 mags in it.  Trying to find something that gets the job done without going through a can of powder for practice.  Compared to my 45 Colt the 38 Super just sips powder. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 02:46:29 AM »
  You guys aren't helping me exercise self controll!  I've been trying to talk myself out of getting into a new caliber (this caliber) for a while.  Like I need to stock up on another round. ;)

  Anyway.  The 38 super is a neat round with an interesting history.  As I understand it, it was designed between the wars to take the one advantage that the Luger had over the 1911.  Compared objectively side by side, the 1911 is better feature for feature than the luger, except that the Luger held another round (of a weker cartridge, but still one more).  So, a 1911 in 38 would stack another round.  Given the 1911's larger grip, that 38 could be longer than the 9mm Luger.  The old 38 auto was revived and loaded up to pressures more befitting the 1911's strenght.  Voila, the 38 'super' automatic.  If the Army had gone for it, the whole world would likely still be shooting nine mill pistols and subguns, they would just be longer nine mills....38 super.  As an aside, imagine the effectiveness of a 38 super in a subgun, but I digress.  Fact is, the US Army didn't bite in any great numbers.  So the round was relegated to civilians and civil policing.  Not only that, but during the same period the super was developed, the .357 magnum came out.  There isn't much the super can do that the magnum can't do except feed in a semi auto, and the magnum can be loaded even heavier.  The super almost went dead until the competitive shooters found out they could make the "major caliber" class with lower recoil than a 45, and the round gets new legs.

 

Offline moxgrove

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2009, 02:49:56 AM »
The super has also always been popular in countries where civilians can't carry military calibers. I have seen some pretty fancy 1911supers from Mexico.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 02:38:07 AM »
When S&W first brought out the 38 Super, they stated it would bring down any game animal in North America.  The 125 gr bullet can be driven at near 357 velocity and people think it is good.  The Corbon loading is around 1400fps in 125.  Speer #12 lists the 124 gr Hp at 1312 fps with blue dot powder, again that is .357 velocity.  I just don't see why one would be good and not the other. 8)

Didn't Colt first introduce it in their Government model in 1929?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/38super.htm

Steve
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 02:47:12 PM »
They did, but Colt made the mistake of headspacing on the rim insted of mouth of case. :(  Early Colts suffered from bad accurasy that has been corrected by headspacing on the case mouth.  The cartridge makers have not loaded the round to its max potential because of fear the round will get in 38 auto handguns.  Handloaders can easily get performance that outperforms all factory rounds sands Corbon. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline S.B.

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 05:08:31 PM »
I've never read about the headspacing problem before you posted it here?
Steve
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Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 06:49:43 PM »
All you have to do is google 38 Super and click on the history.  It is there for the reading. 8)  It is also mentioned in most reviews like Kimber MKII.
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Mikey

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 12:51:48 AM »
Rawhidekid:  the 38 Super is perfectly adequate for lots of critters.  I have used the 38 Super, with some of Charles Askins loads, to take small Texas Whitetails, lots and lots of Javelina and a couple of Puma (South American).  Askins used H110 and SR4756 powders in the 38 Super and came away with high velocities (357 velocities) and acceptable pressures.  

Some folk consider the 38 Super to be a semi-auto version of the 38 Spl but from the closed chamber of the semi-auto you can easily and safely get into 357 level performance with the Super, for example - when comparing a Government Model size 38 Super (with 4" of rifled barrel) and a typical police length 4" 357, you can get about the same velocities from the same weight bullet up to about 158-160 gns.  The 125 gn bullet from both can be driven to 1425'/sec without problem using H110, SR-4756, and Unique in the Super - no difference from the 357 there.  The 158 gn slug is driven to about 1250'/sec or better from a 4" revolver and almost 1200'/sec from the 38 Super - probably not enough difference to matter, and these loads are from reloading manuals - when you take the 38 Super into the 'Major' category you are going up the ladder a notch or two but the cartridge is capable of performance.

As to chambering - when first developed, some considered the Super a semi-auto version of the 38 Special and the Super (actually its predecesor the 38 Auto) was developed with a slight rim - semi-rimmed is the term I recall.  I don't know if this was a hold-over design from earlier revolver cartridges or if Colt, which first chambered the cartridge, decided to retain the semi-rim configuration to avoid having to deal with the similar European versions of the 9mm (9mm Largo, Bergman, Bergman-Bayard, 9mm Mauser Export, 9mm Steyr).  Anyhow, as headspaced on the small semi-rim the cartridge lacked serious accuracy until handloaders got to play with it and then it straightened out a bit but never really improved into a match or target consideration until barrels were headspaced on the case mouth as were the 45 acp and 9mm - then you saw accuracy that matched the 45 acp and outshot the European 9s.  

My Bar-Sto barrel for the 38 Super headspaces on the case mouth and is in the .355 diameter - I could have gone to a .357/.358 diameter if I had wanted but decvided to stick with the 9mm diameter bore - and this barrel is so accurate.  I have a lot of fun shooting the Super and absolutely never worry about being 'undergunned' with it in the woods.  

Look at it this way - when I can take a 200 lb jungle cat with a 125gn 38 Super slug at better than 1400'/sec, I am not worried about the capability of the Super and I doubt Colonel Askins would be worried either...........jmtcw.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2009, 02:32:57 AM »
Actually Mikey, didn't S&W bring out their .357 in 1935 to rival Colt's .38 Super and try to steal some of Colt's thunder?
Steve
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 03:41:13 AM »
Actually Mikey, didn't S&W bring out their .357 in 1935 to rival Colt's .38 Super and try to steal some of Colt's thunder?
Steve

  If so, it seems to have worked.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2009, 09:56:49 AM »
Thanks Mikey for the good info.  I will be working up loads and experamenting with diferent bullet weight to see what this gun likes best.  So far it realy likes the 147 grn over Alliant 2400. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Mikey

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 11:21:09 AM »
Hey Steve:  you might be right.

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 12:57:01 PM »
I know the 38 Super is to be loaded with .355 jacketed bullets, but in Hornady they used one jacketed bullet that is .357.  Other than backing off the powder charge a bit, is there much problem using the larger dia. bullet such as to large for the chamber?  I picked up a Taurus 38 Super and am just starting to reload.  Want to use heavier bullets and LilGun powder, I have started using LilGun in place of H-110 in 357, 44 mag, 45 Colt, and 454 Casull.  Been reloading for 25 + years but never for the 38 Super.  What about feeding CP WFN bullets?  Or SWC's?  DP
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 01:09:03 PM »
Lyman 47 lists some swc's.  I shot some 129 copper coated swc in my Taurus PT1911 38 Super today.  I seated the bullet to the crimp groove without crimping, no problem.  Fed fine and grouped well, only shot at 10 yards as I was testing a new load for function and pressurre signs. 8)  So far my Taurus seems to prefer 147grn fmj over 2400. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Mikey

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2009, 01:51:15 PM »
dpe.ahoy:  if your pistol will feed the wfn bullets then you can have a lot of fun with them and they should serve you well for many purposes as would the swc, if they will feed reliably; if you develop feeding problems you may have to use a different slug, one that has some ogive to it to get them to feed. 

I use the CP 160 gn rn slug they make for the 38 Super, sized to .356, over Unique and go skippin' cans; even at max loading for that slug, which takes it right into 357 territory, is easy to shoot and manage.  The lower end of the Unique powder loading range for that weight bullet is nuts on with the 38 Special for the same slug and at that level it is a lot of fun to shoot. 

Offline Pinkerton

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2009, 08:14:04 AM »
jlwilliams wrote:

"imagine how effective the 38 super would be chambered in a submachine gun"

I saw mention in some history of the round that it was chambered in the Thompson at one time.

I'm new to the super myself with a Kimber Team Match and it has quickly become my favorite 1911. The state I live in has a requirement of 500ft/lbs of energy at the muzzel for deer and it looks like the Cor-bon DPX 125gr load just makes that requirement (Cor-bon is out of the town I live in) so I'm considering it as well for deer with a 40-50 yrd limit.

Offline smacky

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2009, 03:16:58 PM »
This is my 38 super platform ;D A five shot single six ,so far just punching paper with 115jhp. I want to work up a load using cast and a heavier bullet. This will be my anytime in the woods gun especially during trapping since the deer season will also be open.

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2009, 05:29:23 PM »
Thanks Mikey.  I'll have to get some of each and try them out.  Now that hunting season is over, I need to get this reloading room cleaned up and start filling some brass.  DP
RIP Oct 27, 2017

Handi's:22Shot, 22LR, 2-22Mag, 22Hornet, 5-223, 2-357Max, 44 mag, 2-45LC, 7-30 Waters, 7mm-08, 280, 25-06, 30-30, 30-30AI, 444Marlin, 45-70, AND 2-38-55s, 158 Topper 22 Hornet/20ga. combo;  Levers-Marlins:Two 357's, 44 mag, 4-30-30s, RC-Glenfields 36G-30A & XLR, 3-35 Rem, M-375, 2-444P's, 444SS, 308 MX, 338Marlin MXLR, 38-55 CB, 45-70 GS, XS7 22-250 and 7mm08;  BLR's:7mm08, 358Win;  Rossi: 3-357mag, 44mag, 2-454 Casull; Winchesters: 7-30 Waters, 45Colt Trapper; Bolt actions, too many;  22's, way too many.  Who says it's an addiction?

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2009, 07:34:26 AM »
Smackey;  Did that bisley start life as a 357? 8)  Sure is good looking hogleg. ;D
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline smacky

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2009, 01:00:54 PM »
Rawhidekid it started as a Ruger Single six in 32 H&R mag. New barrel and five shot cylinder , Bisley gripframe ,hammer and trigger. Small compact carry piece that as said can be loaded up to 357mag power.

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2009, 02:42:30 PM »
Smacky;  If you do not mind, what was the cost above the gun, and who did the work.  Reason I am asking is with that rig you do not have to worry about supported feed ramps and max loads are deffinetly OK. ;D
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline smacky

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Re: Hunting with 38 Super
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2009, 04:37:49 AM »
Here you go kid. Reeder is running a "shooters pkg" sale so you can get a great deal on the conversion, it just does not have the fancy cosmetic features. http://www.reedercustomguns.com/revolvers/38backpacker.htm