what is a just war?

[nw_hunter]

 Should we be in Iraq or Afghanistan? What do you consider a JUST WAR?

 

[Questor]

Wars have nothing to do with justice. They have everything to do with defense and conquest.

[briarpatch]

The American Revolution was a just war to my thinking. It povided for the betterment of a people. To throw off tyranny and foster freedom. There was no conquest or financial gain for either side because of the war. The gains came later to America because of the freedoms given.
I would use this as a standard in our history as a just war. MHO.

[SHOOTALL]

If you win you call it just. If you lose you don't get to write history .

[Oldshooter]

Every war this country has been involved in was "just"!  Some were just not prosecuted  correctly!

Declare war and win it or dont go there!

[torpedoman]

 All wars are just wars depending on who you ask.  The thing you should always bear in mind is that the history books are always written by the winners.

[Dee]

Boy this is a loaded question. A just war should be determined by the reasons it is fought. Vietnam,  and Iraq were fought because the United States Government took it upon itself to judge the governments IN OTHER COUNTRIES, when it's really none of our business. It is now obvious to any paying attention, that it took someone like Hussain to keep the numerous factions from wiping each other completely out.
Afghanistan I have mixed feelings on. I think after 911 we should have unleashed out Air Force on the known terrorist camps, and bombed them into powder. This would be far more economically effective, and there would be no need to occupy or rebuild that 15th century country, whom has not the slightest interest in democracy.

[williamlayton]

Well you could have a just war if you were French and JUST don't fight.
That said if you want a system different than the one you got then you can justify going to war---that is what we did.
We got mad because GB would not let us manufacture our own goods and started a fight--we won and said it was just.
Blessings

[slim rem 7]

 wars is bad.. just ask anyone who has ever been involved in one in a hands on shoot an duck way..
  now some bad things warrant doing ... if you gonna do it .. getter done an getter done right..
 
 yall don t worry.. they havn t ask me to run things lately.. ;)slim

[ironglow]

  AS Oldshooter says;  declare war and do it with all your might ..or don't do it!
  
   A "just " war ..or just a war?
  Some perhaps do not recall..our country signed a treaty back in the cold war years of the 1950s, which included South Vietnam. It was called S.E.A.T.O. (South East Asia Treaty Organization). That solemn treaty said that if any of the member signatories were attacked by Communist forces, the other signers would come to their aid. Should we have saved the pain ..and reneged..you decide. Frankly, we could have won that conflict if we had fought it as a war..but the politicians tried to "play generals". We should have fought it with all our might. I figured that when the USS New Jersey was sent there, many North Vietnamese cities could say "bye,bye", but Johnson & co. wouldn't let the "Big J" really fight, any more than he let the military do whatever it took to win.
  On the other hand, if backing out on a promise doesn't bother you, to break the treaty.. may well seem the proper way go!

  It would seem that defensive wars are more justified than offensive ones.
   Many believe that the conflict in Iraq & Afghanistan are defensive..get the terrorists before they "9/11" us again. To prove it as offensive, it would seem that some prize (other than peace) were being sought for..which is not the case. We are not seizing and keeping land or gold. Even though some facetiously claim we are after oil. that idea doesn't hold water..since the Iraqi oil is sold on the open market to the highest bidder and anyone can buy it!

[BBF]

See what sort of a mess you can get into with those treaties. Because one Serb Nationalist shot and killed Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, WWI started which set the stage for WWII to come about which allowed Communism to greatly increase their influence all over this globe....... and the beat goes on

[rio grande]

Read the following and make up your own mind if the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are unjust. I think they are not only unjust, but criminally stupid, a foolish waste of people and resources ($).  

Also note what the Church forbids, and considers "crimes against humanity".
I support the RC Church position, myself.



"The most authoritative and up-to-date expression of just war doctrine is found in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.  

Also, see
  http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm
 which contains...

The Church greatly respects those who have dedicated their lives to the defense of their nation. "If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace. [Cf. Gaudium et spes 79, 5]" However, she cautions combatants that not everything is licit in war. Actions which are forbidden, and which constitute morally unlawful orders that may not be followed, include:

- attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;

- genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities;

- indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants.

Given the modern means of warfare, especially nuclear, biological and chemical, these crimes against humanity must be especially guarded against.

[Redtail1949]

wars are fought for mant different reasons..treaties are made among nations too increase their streath with the idea that others will leave them alone..sorta like jump on me and you will answer to my big brother and he and i will stomp your rump.

whatever the reason you go to war you go all out and make it soooo baaad that the other side quits.

and like they say you win then its your version of why that counts.

[DalesCarpentry]

This kind of applies. I learned 20 years ago you don't stop fighting until the other can't get back up. I got in a bar fight with a guy in Key Largo Fl 20 years ago. I had him down and was beating on him pretty good, when he said OK I HAD ENOUGH. STOP STOP!!! I GIVE. I said are you sure? He said yea I am done. I got up off him and turned my back to walk away. Big mistake!!! He got up grabed a beer bottle and hit me in the head with it. I beat that man until he could not get back up. I was affraid if I let him up again he would kill me. Do you see how that applies here? Dale

[Cabin4]

Defending America from invasion by a foriegn enemy would be a "just" war. Defending our constitution from any enemy, foriegn or domestic would be a "just" war. There is nothing "just" about the Iraq & Afganistan conflicts.

[nw_hunter]

Defending America from invasion by a foriegn enemy would be a "just" war. Defending our constitution from any enemy, foriegn or domestic would be a "just" war. There is nothing "just" about the Iraq & Afganistan conflicts.

My line of thinking goes along with Dee's and Cabin4's.I've looked at the invasion of Iraq, long and hard, and I cannot see just cause for doing it. If a group of terrorists in Afghanistan, were responsible for the attack on 911,then go bomb their camps into glass, and get the hell out! Since most were Saudi's why didn't they feel the fury of our forces? "I keep forgetting" they are our friends.

We haven't been invaded by a foreign enemy nation since WW2, and GW'S last reason for  invading Iraq for the most part, was to rid the world of an evil dictator, why didn't we start with China or N Korea? The list of evil dictators is a huge one.I think we have seen a few lately in the good old USA!

War is a racket! Always was and always will be. I think it was  Marine General Smedley Butler  that said that.

[teamnelson]

Just war is the discussion of reasons for war. One reason is when another party has declared war on you.

Justice in war is the discussion of the method of war, and includes the concepts of neutralizing the enemy and proportionality. Dales example is of justice in war; not just war. How it started was not his point.

The first discussion is for the government; the second for the military. If congress declares a just war, the soldier will wage it justly.

One thing I've noticed in OIF and OEF is that while there is a just war in there to be fought but congress won't declare it. Instead we have an unfunded strategy of failure which makes it harder for the soldier to wage justly. The preferable alternative is to withdraw and allow those who are at war with solving their own logistical problems.

[williamlayton]

Walk softly and carry a big stick. The presence of the big stick is a show of force.
I agree that defending is a just cause.
I do like a strong presence.
Blessings

[magooch]

As I remember it, Iraq had 17, or 18 U.N. resolutions against them and would not comply with the ceasefire agreement from the first desert war.  Saddam had better than eight months to straighten up and fly right.  He was also subsidizing the families of al Qaeda.  That made Iraq an accomplice in the acts of terror that we suffered.  And possibly the best reason for choosing Iraq as the primary place to make war on al Qaeda was that it was easier to fight them there than in Afghanistan.  Maybe that wasn't part of the original strategy, but that was how it worked out. 

Whether, or not we always used the best tactics in Iraq is not the question.  The war was just.

[Dee]

To the bitter end, Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda HATED EACH OTHER. Saddam in no way subsidized them. The UN sanctions involved, THE DISPUTE BETWEEN KUWAIT AND IRAQ, and had ZERO TO DO WITH 911. Let us keep our facts straight.
He (Saddam) had done NOTHING to the United States other than to tell us to kiss his butt, and mind our own business. Kuwait was guilty as sin for angle drilling into Iraqi oil reserves. This is all documented HISTORY now.
The United States government under the Bush administration INVADED IRAQ, on what they THOUGHT HE HAD, while IGNORING IRAN, on WHAT THEY (the U.S.) KNEW THEY (Iran) HAD AND STILL HAVE.  

[Oldshooter]

I know for a fact that hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, I know that because he used every last drop to kill as many of the kurds as he could! 

[nw_hunter]

To the bitter end, Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda HATED EACH OTHER. Saddam in no way subsidized them. The UN sanctions involved, THE DISPUTE BETWEEN KUWAIT AND IRAQ, and had ZERO TO DO WITH 911. Let us keep our facts straight.
He (Saddam) had done NOTHING to the United States other than to tell us to kiss his butt, and mind our own business. Kuwait was guilty as sin for angle drilling into Iraqi oil reserves. This is all documented HISTORY now.
The United States government under the Bush administration INVADED IRAQ, on what they THOUGHT HE HAD, while IGNORING IRAN, on WHAT THEY (the U.S.) KNEW THEY (Iran) HAD AND STILL HAVE.  

I thought it was quite plain! Bush & Mr Halliburton were going to have that war period.I think they still had a few more excuses tucked up their sleeves to use! Plus they had Faux news stirring up the Neocons for battle.

Along comes the Messiah! (AKA)  Berry Obama, and says it was an unjust war, and if the folks that hated Bush would vote for him, he would end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are still waiting for that promise to unfold, and will be waiting till Miami becomes a winter ski resort.

[Redtail1949]

why did we not jump on China? simply explained by a beer joint anaolgy.

a man had just sucker punched a loud mouth, that was about 3 inches shorter and 50 lbs. lighter than him. when asked why he did not take on the other guy that was with the loudmouth he stated "....are you crazy? Did you see how big that ol' boy was?

easy to fight if you are sure you will not take a beating..not so easy if the outcome is in doubt.

[Dee]

I know for a fact that hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, I know that because he used every last drop to kill as many of the kurds as he could!  

Do your reallly? And where did you get your facts. From THE FACT BOOK, or the news media? All "factions" in Iraq have been killing each other since the days of Babylon (Iraq). Kurds included. That too is a fact, and that came from "THE" FACT BOOK.

Now Oldshooter which is more important to you? Kurds or FIFTY MILLION PLUS AMERICAN BABIES, killed with YOUR TAX DOLLAR, thru Planned Parenthood, funded by YOUR GOVERNMENT? Which means more to you? ANOTHER WARRING FACTION IN IRAQ, or innocent AMERICAN BABIES? We need to clean our own toilet before we start cleaning someone elses, Cause ours stinks to high HEAVEN. Did Hitler in his heyday kill more than our runnaway government has funded the killing of, IN JUST THIS ONE PROGRAM (abortion)? God is calling His court to order as we speak. That too, is a fact. 

[Oldshooter]

Good grief Dee, you are predictable, do you just cut and paste that "killing babies line" every time the war in Iraq is mentioned?

And which fact book you talking about! all you know about what you read on the internet is that the author has access to a keyboard and a CPU!

If this country only went to war after  our "own toilet was cleaned" we would have never gone to war!
anywhere at all,  Seems I could find a good Moral high ground  argument to never ever fire an aggressive bullet in this countries past. "We" have  been on the wrong side of morality before I think! This country is not a country of God its a country of laws and right now the law says that they can kill babies. I dont like it but thats the law. Change the law

Put Iraq in the context of 9-11 and the fact that Hussein was sponsoring Terror and was sanctioned for it. He was warned and he was obstinate, he could have made nice and "WE" would have rebuilt his camel yard with taxpayers dollars. I say the only problem I have is the fact that the war was not prosecuted with enough vigor and total annihilation. In short turn it into a parking lot and raise the flag there! Make a point when you fight not friends! My problem with wars these days is that they are not fought to win, they are fought to make political hay!

 I should stop now cause I'm angry and  it is showing!

I'm ready for Gods court!

[Dee]

The Iraqi sanctions were because of the invasion of Iraq into Kuwait. It had nothing to do with 911 or terrorism. That has been proven over and over. You Oldshooter are also predictable on this topic. You like the war, because you swallowed the hogwash the Bush's put out about it.
Now I am NOT angry, just persistent to the truth, and HISTORY. We make a big deal out of invading another country in the name of humanity, and then blow off such things as abortion here in this country, with "it's the law". Well, IT'S THE LAW OVER THERE, and always has been. The kill each other.
Now MY FACT BOOK considering the FACTION WARS over the last several thousand years is the Bible. Kurds kill Shiites, Sunnis kill Kurds, and they all kill each other. NOTHING NEW.

[Oldshooter]

The Iraqi sanctions were because of the invasion of Iraq into Kuwait.

You are persistant but wrong, the sanctions were due to the fact that hussein was not allowing inspectors to see what he was making in those non existant weapons factories. He ran em out and then before we invaded he hid em! He had plenty of time by the way! You read too much of the leftist propaganda!

Iraqi sanctions were because of the invasion of Iraq into Kuwait

that was before the inspectors were ran out of Iraq you have gotten your bushes confused in your zealous hate of the bushes.


 

[ironglow]

Sometimes memories are conveniently short;
   Saddam (the other Hussein) sent his army into Kuwait..he was told to leave..he did not. The Security council urged him to leave..he did not../after several warnings, resolutions and much hand-wringing..it was decided he should be pushed back where he belonged. the US and several other countries started marshalling their forces..warning that other Hussein almost daily..Hussein STILL didn't comply...so "shock and awe" took place.
    After Saddam had his head handed to him, he was obliged to sign a "peace treaty". Among others, the peace treaty agreed to these certain points:
 
  1) No fly zones ....zones of about the northern 1/3 of Iraq and southern 1/3 of Iraq, where Saddam's agreed to  not allow his aircraft to fly.

  2) Hussein (that other Hussein) should not endeavor to buy, obtain or create any type of WMD.

  3) In order for the monitoring agencies to ascertain that no WMD were being bought, built or shipped in..Saddam agreed to "free and unfettered" inspections by the monitoring authorities, wherever those inspectors desired to go.

  When a formerly aggressive, expanding power signs a pledge to live up to certain restrictions..they must do so or suffer the consequences....which obviously is a change in the government; the government that refused to live up to it's commitments.

  ...But instead...;

 1) Saddam started firing upon allied planes which were patrolling the "no-fly" zone..an intentional violation iof the agreement he signed.

 2) He may or may not have been obtaining WMD; we don't know, because he closed his facilities to the inspectors, a very suspicious move.

  3) He refused inspections continually, not allowing "free and unfettered" inspections..a gross violation of what he swore to allow..he trashed the agreement...

     The war was back on....this time for a regime change..just as Saddam was warned would happen.

[Cabin4]

Who cares what Hussein did. It had nothing to do with us. Where is it written that every time some screw ball dictator invades his neighbor it means the US has to send its son's in to die? We have fallen prey to the UN and the Super Rich that run the globe & the UN. The UN forum creates these conflicts and the world uses our sons and daughters as pawns. We get to do all their dirty work. 

Who gives a crape about UN sanctions! UN sanctions mean nothing in this land and it should mean nothing to other nations as well. We need to get the hell out of the UN before it destroys us and this entire planet in the process.

[rio grande]

Who cares what Hussein did. It had nothing to do with us. Where is it written that every time some screw ball dictator invades his neighbor it means the US has to send its son's in to die? We have fallen prey to the UN and the Super Rich that run the globe & the UN. The UN forum creates these conflicts and the world uses our sons and daughters as pawns. We get to do all their dirty work.  

Who gives a crape about UN sanctions! UN sanctions mean nothing in this land and it should mean nothing to other nations as well. We need to get the hell out of the UN before it destroys us and this entire planet in the process.

Yes. Let's take care of our own beloved country, guard our own borders, become self-sufficient again.  

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world…." ~ George Washington

Maybe if we had followed their advice we would not be having this discussion about whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were just.