what is a just war?

[Redtail1949]

ironglow:

you pretty much summed it up.


redtail1949

[Cabin4]

He pretty much summed up just what the heck is all wrong with the way too many people think in my opinion.

[ironglow]

  We can agree or disagree the wisdom of going into Iraq, and that is fair enough. The simple fact is however, we along with several other powers representing the UN, had held Saddam's feet to the fire and toasted his toes. An internationally binding agreement was signed and it was expected the thing was done, but the utter ignoring of solemly signed agreements was unexpected..even of an evil Hussein.
      In hindsight, Bush 41 should have ignored the UN's insistance to stop short of Baghdad, but then he would have been guilty of breaking an agreed contract.
   As in any conflict we (or anyone else) have ever fought, mistakes were made in the final invasion of Iraq. It appears clear though, that the operation would have gone more smoothly and quickly, had not so many opf the president's political rivals done everything to prolong the war and raise the casualties.
 
      Now, if you were to ask me if we should get out of the UN and send the UN packing from our shores..I would heartily agree!!!
       
  We should have left the UN shortly after the Korean adventure, when we found that not only are we supporting the lion's share of UN costs but also doing the lion's share of the fighting for them. The UN has led us into every major conflict since WW2.
  Ironically, it is often the same politicians who squeal the loudest when we commit forces to uphold UN decrees, ....who insist we stay wihin the confines of the UN organization!.
 
  Let's get rid of the politicians who want to stick with the UN..that we can do...if we vote with our heads, instead of a "party"..

  We should have left the UN years ago, the cost of the UN is more than we can afford today...especially for an organization that fights against us at every opportunity.

[Dee]

Who cares what Hussein did. It had nothing to do with us. Where is it written that every time some screw ball dictator invades his neighbor it means the US has to send its son's in to die? We have fallen prey to the UN and the Super Rich that run the globe & the UN. The UN forum creates these conflicts and the world uses our sons and daughters as pawns. We get to do all their dirty work. 

Who gives a crape about UN sanctions! UN sanctions mean nothing in this land and it should mean nothing to other nations as well. We need to get the hell out of the UN before it destroys us and this entire planet in the process.

My point exactly Cabin4. This whole damn mess started over Kuwait, just as ironglow illustrated, and it was taken to the next level, and some here don't even remember what started it.
All kinds of charges were piled on Hussain when this liberal ideology got rollin, and here we are today in a mess, and Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia are makin a killin on our work and dying.

[JASmith]

As one who spent three years in the Vietnam arena, I have become very tired of uninformed mouthing off by folks who have no clue but think that somehow we should fight only when our fence is being rattled.  Some apologists go so far to imply that we should do nothing even then because our government has somehow offended the fence rattlers.

Read Ironglow and Oldshooter's word very carefully, they speak truth.

Our fences were being actively torn down in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Irfaq (plus many other places).  Things that happen in these far off places seriously affect our domestic life today mostly through loss of resources resulting in inability to do things (like drive to work or build better things).

Our failings in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq is that we have neglected to treat them as wars and tried to manage them.  For example, there's a rather famous quote of a conversation between a senior North Vietnamese official and a US Envoy (I apologize for not remembering names) that went something like this:  The US Envoy tried to intimidate the Vietnamese official by pointing to a chart indicating how tiny a fraction of the US National Economy was beign spent on Vietnam and that we could raise the level much, much higher any time we chose while the Vietnamese were already putting 25% of their economy into the conflict.  The North Vietnamese responded with words to the effect that the North Vietnamese were motivated while we Americans were, at best, treating the war as a sandbox to play in and could not prevail.

Today is no different.

[magooch]

It seems to me that we tried a bit of isolationism in the past and it got us WWI and WWII.  That's not to say that I think we should be into every little skirmish that goes on, but it's a pipedream to believe that we can sit on the sideline and enjoy the game.  The US is the world's super power and I like it that way.  We just need to remind the world what the definition of "super" is.

[powderman]

JASMITH. Good post, all true. POWDERMAN. 

[Cabin4]

Read Ironglow and Oldshooter's word very carefully, they speak truth.

I'm not saying they don't speak the truth on all the technical merits. However, it is these truths & resulting actions that get us into these conflicts. We do not have to participate in these issues. Every fight is not our fight. UN sanctions mean absolutely nothing to me and as well it should mean nothing to us and other nations. Yes, Saddam violated the southern no fly zone! Let’s remember the southern no-fly zone line ran across and inside of the Iraq border. How many of you would like the UN to draw a "no fly" zone inside the boarders of the US? And then, if one of our military planes crosses it, a foreign power gets to shoot down our plane and kill the crew? How does that sound? Or maybe what if the UN passes sanctions against the US because they hate our 2nd amendment? (and they do) Or how about sanctions against the US for having troops in S. Korea or how about sanctions for having Nukes and we are subjected to forced foreign inspectors inside our nation?

My point is simple. All the UN trash is just that, trash. It’s meaningless and we should get out and force that forum body of criminals off our land. We better start respecting the sovereign rights of other nations just as much as we want ours respected and stop acting like we must be the world’s police. We don't need to engage in the internal issues of every freakin country. Our federal government and congress have no constitutional authority to act in these areas. Our constitution provides a military to defend us against direct actions, not to invade other nations and try to rebuild them as constitutional democracies.

Blow back is hell and we are paying the price and will continue to as long as we let our continued failed & unconstitutional foreign policy and the UN run us a muck.

[BBF]

Double Yes to post# 38

[Dee]

The fact that we NEED Arab oil to drive back and forth to work is in itself, an UNTRUTH. We do not. We have countless oil reserves, that our present ROUGE GOVERNMENT has locked down, and prohibited production. The oil company lobbyist have been able to persuade the government to give them leases which they have no intention of exercising, but instead they have in effect GAINED CONTROL, so that no one outside the lobbyist loop can develop them either.
I will agree, and have always agreed that politicians are unwilling to fight a war to win, and have not been willing to do so since WWII. With that fact in mind, I find it amazing that someone would be willing and agreeable to enter into such a conflict as Iraq and Afghanistan KNOWING that they will not be allowed to win, but in the end will merely run up an American body count. The fact that this is the REAL TRUTH, eludes me in that one would want to approve of such a conflict, much less support it.
I have always supported our troops, and many here know that my youngest had three tours in both conflicts. He feels the same as I, and he was actually there.
If you are not going to play to win, it is foolish to play.
If these oil rich Arab countries are so supportive of our efforts, and sacrifices, why are we paying the bill? We do not need their oil, we have our own. We are ham-stringed by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT in this regard.

JASmith, as far as you being tired of "uninformed folks" "mouthing off" about what "you think" you know more about than they, this is a forum of opinions. That's what it's about! Everyone has their "own opinions" and everyone has their own solutions. Most of us have personal experiences which lead us in the direction we walk. You are no different. You are no more of an expert than any of us. An example of this is your opinions of Iraq, and Afghanistan. You believe that your experience in Vietnam, better qualifies you than any on the subject, when I know several that have ACTUALLY BEEN to these two countries, and you are in conflict with them, on their synopsis of the two wars. You may also find other soldiers that have ACTUALLY BEEN to these two conflicts (Iraq & Afghanistan) that disagree with them.
As I said, this is A FORUM OF OPINIONS, where we all have opinions, and each thinks he is right and the other is wrong, for one reason or the other. You are no different.

[JASmith]

We chose to more or less opt out of world affairs at the close of WWII -- even to the point of not participating in the League of Nations.

Our thinking was that the Atlantic and Pacific ponds would act as moats to protect us.  Pearl Harbor ruined that illusion!

We are the world's leading power -- we appear to be throwing that power, and the ability to do good with it, away.  Yes, most of what we do around the world is with good intentions and frequently result in good things happening in the viewpoint of all involved.  Problem is we focus on the messups.  We absolutely need to correct the mistakes, but you don't do that by running away from problems like we did in 'Nam and appear to be trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Oldshooter]

All i can tell you isolationists is that it has been tried before! Like gun control, its too late, the Jeannie is out of the bottle, you cant isolate this country from what is going on in the world,(As much as i would like to) What happens in the middle east affects us here! You ignore moronic dictators in small camel dung countries and you get a dictator with more power and ability to kill more of your sons and allies later on. I Don't think the war in Iraq could have been avoided after the Desert Storm fiasco made it a powder keg and we left an enemy alive to make trouble!  Does History not tell you anything?

I dont think that ANY WAR IS JUST, I do think that some are necessary! War is an abomination right next to just whining and complaining and sitting on your hands.


So stay in your living rooms and complain and put down any attempt by anyone to protect you and your families. Soon all you will get to run this country are  no nothing, paper hanging, neighborhood organizers, that will lie and tell you anything you wanna hear to get elected. Then they will sell you down the road...........OH I forgot, we're there already!

[Cabin4]

We chose to more or less opt out of world affairs at the close of WWII -- even to the point of not participating in the League of Nations.

Our thinking was that the Atlantic and Pacific ponds would act as moats to protect us.  Pearl Harbor ruined that illusion!

We are the world's leading power -- we appear to be throwing that power, and the ability to do good with it, away.  Yes, most of what we do around the world is with good intentions and frequently result in good things happening in the viewpoint of all involved.  Problem is we focus on the messups.  We absolutely need to correct the mistakes, but you don't do that by running away from problems like we did in 'Nam and appear to be trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As long as we are willing to pick a side in foriegn based conflicts, we will be suject to the American body count, costs in tax dollars and the later resulting blow back. I fail to see how any of this serves the purpose of our nation or our constitution. No one is suggesting that the oceans that sperate us from the world provide a 100% barrier. Even the revolutionary war proved that not to be true. But our actions in Iraq & Afganistan have nothing to do with any of this. Iraq nor Afganistan sent troops accross the oceans to our shores. Pearl Horbor provides us no parallel in comparison. Japan actually sent organized armed forces accross the ocean to attack our forces. How is this any comparison to Iraq & Afganistan? If the answers to this are they violated UN sanctions, then this has just become a circular argument.

[Cabin4]

All i can tell you isolationists is that it has been tried before! Like gun control, its too late, the Jeannie is out of the bottle, you cant isolate this country from what is going on in the world,(As much as i would like to) What happens in the middle east affects us here! You ignore moronic dictators in small camel dung countries and you get a dictator with more power and ability to kill more of your sons and allies later on. I Don't think the war in Iraq could have been avoided after the Desert Storm fiasco made it a powder keg and we left an enemy alive to make trouble!  Does History not tell you anything?

I dont think that ANY WAR IS JUST, I do think that some are necessary! War is an abomination right next to just whining and complaining and sitting on your hands.


So stay in your living rooms and complain and put down any attempt by anyone to protect you and your families. Soon all you will get to run this country are  no nothing, paper hanging, neighborhood organizers, that will lie and tell you anything you wanna hear to get elected. Then they will sell you down the road...........OH I forgot, we're there already!

Sending troops to fight these wars in Iraq & Afghanistan is just simply the wrong approach. It will never end and we will find ourselves in more and more of these conflicts as the global pawns for the UN & the ultra rich. We are pissing off the world at us and planting the seeds for more hatred of America. We employ a complete double standard and the world sees it and its making them more and more aggravated. Why anyone thinks these type of actions and the resulting hatred it fosters are in the long term best interest of our country I will never understand. All I ever see as justification is the same ol rubbish. No one can give me an answer why WE need to do this. All the justification for war is always because of failure to follow UN sanctions and other false premise issues. Let’s face it, our actions in the middle east are all about OIL just like Dee and others have said! If this region had no oil, we would not be there. This region has been fighting each other for centuries yet it was not until the oil crash that we decided to take such a deep interest. The best defense from terror is not engaging these countries at any level. Drill for our own oil and lets develop the alternatives we have. But we can't because of the ECO Nazi's in this country. There are groups that are opposed to every alternative energy source so we can never fully engage Wind, Solar, Water /hydro, corn or Nuclear. As long as special interest run our political system, we will never solve our energy issue and employ the needed polices that enable private solutions. So basically we are screwed into importing oil, fighting terror and fighting wars forever.

[Oldshooter]

We are pissing off the world at us and planting the seeds for more hatred of America.

We've been doing that since we organized the country, but now you have just the president you want he is apologizing for all these evil deeds we have commited! And he's turning this country into a third world cesspool  that wont be able to make anyone angry!


I dont care if we are hated by muslims! I'm all in favor of them being anihilated! and their camels too!


My only problem with the wars in the middle east is the fact that we are not using all of the power that we can bring to bear on these mutants! WAR= make death, not friends. If they come against you make em wish they had not!  and I'll argue with you all you want, the taliban did send people against us! Even if you dont understand it!

[Cabin4]

We are pissing off the world at us and planting the seeds for more hatred of America.

but now you have just the president you want he is apologizing for all these evil deeds we have commited! And he's turning this country into a third world cesspool  that wont be able to make anyone angry!

I don't have any president I want. The president I want is not likly to be elected anytime soon. Too many people have been convinced we need to constantly have our troops deployed all over the globe in foriegn conflicts. The president I want would put an end to this mess and enforce our constitution in all policy endevors.

[Dee]

We chose to more or less opt out of world affairs at the close of WWII -- even to the point of not participating in the League of Nations.

Our thinking was that the Atlantic and Pacific ponds would act as moats to protect us.  Pearl Harbor ruined that illusion!

We are the world's leading power -- we appear to be throwing that power, and the ability to do good with it, away.  Yes, most of what we do around the world is with good intentions and frequently result in good things happening in the viewpoint of all involved.  Problem is we focus on the messups.  We absolutely need to correct the mistakes, but you don't do that by running away from problems like we did in 'Nam and appear to be trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.

JASmith, every thing you say here I am in total agreement with. Everything! However, we cannot ignore the MESSUPS, that our government has orchestrated since Korea. They have no intentions of fighting a war to win it. They have adopted a policy since WWII of "nation building" and "police actions". The truth of the matter is, we have no real right to do either. If one really wanted to "straighten out the world" the first place to start would be "human rights in China". Think that would fly? Nope! Instead we call them a friend when they are not, and our government has sold us into almost indentured servitude to China. They quite literally OWN US. We the "big kid on the block" instead, pick on "the little kids on the block" in conflict after conflict that NEVER ends well. We cannot continue to "nation build" nations that don't want the help, and we cannot continue to "police the unpoliceable". They simply do not want our help. As I have said before, the Middle Eastern countries have fought among themselves for about 7,000 years now. It will not change when the last American boot gets on the last American helicopter and flies out of there. The only thing we will leave is American blood.

Oldshooter, I am no more speaking of isolationism than you are. That I am dogmatic in my beliefs, and continually stick with them, is to say that it is what I truly believe. And if you take the time to read your own, you will find that with that one finger you point at me, you have three more pointing back at your self. You are equally as dogmatic about YOUR OPINIONS, as I am mine. Acceptance of each others convictions is all we have, and most likely everyone would be a little more polite, if the discussion were face to face. But not always.

And by the way Cabin4, in your last post #46, I am in full agreement there. We at the present have so many problems here at home, it is time to pull in our tentacles and take care of OUR OWN DOMESTIC PROBLEMS. We have an economy that is near collapse, a government that is hell bent on taking over the domestic product production, is socializing our economy, and is attempting to set up a Fascist style economy. The last thing we need to be doing is telling someone else how to live.

[Oldshooter]

Because if that is the summation of your view on winning THE WAR that would make you a genocidist.

and your point is? What part of annihilation(correct spelling) confused you 7?

MY definition of war is somewhat different than yours I suppose, If things get to the point of declaring war, I'm from the "turn it into a parking lot school of thought"(learned that from Gen. Sherman).  One thing is for sure if those 300,000 are hiding in amongst the innocent, it wont take long for them to give em up. If that seems disingenuous, you understand how I feel about "wiping out millions and millions of civilians, children and all...."


Edited to add, Dee when did I point a finger, all I can say is if the shoe fits........ C4 was declaring isolationism and you agree with his post so wear it!

[powderman]

OLDSHOOTER. Good posts, all true. The war we are fighting is against the cancer islam, not a coubtry. Kinda like fighting mad dogs, go to their lair. Islam is a cancer, a boil on the butt of the ENTIRE world. POWDERMAN. 

[JASmith]

As I have said before, the Middle Eastern countries have fought among themselves for about 7,000 years now. It will not change when the last American boot gets on the last American helicopter and flies out of there. The only thing we will leave is American blood.

The conversations are getting interesting!

First real comment -- I know that there really is a formal definition to the term "just war" but I don't remember it and am too distracted by other things to track it down just now.  If one of our readers or poster finds it, please post!  I think it would be a good addition to our discussions even though I strongly suspect it won't change any opinions!

Back to Dee's comment above:  In about the 1880's, the American Navy was smaller than one or two South American countries!  The president at the time commissioned an admiral by the name of Mahan to review the potential consequences of letting the navy continue to be small.  The conclusions weren't pretty.  He then compared the effort (men, ships, and dollars) of defending the USA at our borders versus more offensive approach of disrupting adversaries in THEIR harbors.  Guess which cost the least by a huge margin.

We could not build or man enough ships and cutters to defend every bay and inlet of our coast.

Another way of putting it -- where do you want the american blood spilled?  We really do have a choice.  If we don't defend ourselves in the other guy's backyard, it will certainly be in ours.  Combat in the US will not only have soldier's blood on the street, but our families too.  We will also see damage that make some of the hurricanes look tame (look at the European and Asian theaters of WWII).

Yes, war is costly. Much of my frustration is that too many of our leaders appear to deliberately hide from the lessons of history when they make decisions.

[BBF]

Reading some of the posts here I have to agree with Iran wanting nukes just to make sure that nobody feels entitled to make a parking place out of them

[Redtail1949]

JASmith:

you and I have a lot in common we must read the same stuff...

I understand a lot of people desires to isolate aourselves deal in our own affairs leave the rest of the world out...it simply will not work and what happens across the globe has an effect on us. we can not escape it. we must be aware and prepared. we must take actions in way off places for our national interest no doubt. keeping our heads down and eyes closed to what happened in some cave led to 911.

the asians have always had a long long term view and the raghead radicals do as well. we in america have a hard time looking two years out much less 20-40 years. we sure have a hard time with battle losses that amount into the 10-20 range  per month much less the backbone for thousands. the asians the radical ragheads do not bat an eye over lossses. i know its because we value life and they do not that is what we must understand and we must be willing to pay the price and end their BS once and for all. problem is many do not have the will.

[teamnelson]

I've studied Just War theory in Seminary and in War College; the classical requirements for a Just War (jus ad b-e-l-l-u-m) are:

• Just Cause
• Proper Authority
• Right Intention
• Reasonable Hope for Success
• Proportionality

BUT (and a big but) all of those are subjective.

[BBF]

We could not build or man enough ships and cutters to defend every bay and inlet of our coast.

Another way of putting it -- where do you want the american blood spilled?  We really do have a choice.  If we don't defend ourselves in the other guy's backyard, it will certainly be in ours.  Combat in the US will not only have soldier's blood...............
[/quote]


Just what ME country has the capacity in manpower, naval and air force to bring a war to North America??   NONE !!

There are only two countries that might have that ability particularly if they work together and they are considered "friends"

However using atomics this time will open up another possibility alltogether.

[teamnelson]

Were y'all sleeping through the stand-up of CyberCommand?

[JASmith]

REDTAIL1949:  I'll bet that part of the reason you accept the reading is that you've lived through one or more events that folks would view as having some historical significance!

TEAMNELSON:  Thanks for the definition, it's very close to what I was thinking but was hoping for something a little more objective.  For example, few would argue that engaging in combat to eject an invader who used violence to make the entry.

How would we respond to non-violent invasions?  These happen all the time and, frequently when the immigrants are "treated poorly," the mother country uses the pretext to engage in a "just war" to protect them!

It gets confusing!

[teamnelson]

The US is subject to thousands of hostile invasions daily conducted by foreign governments, there's just no gunpowder involved.

[JASmith]

Just what ME country has the capacity in manpower, naval and air force to bring a war to North America??   NONE !!

There are only two countries that might have that ability particularly if they work together and they are considered "friends"

However using atomics this time will open up another possibility alltogether.

They are that way because we have engaged in the ME.

[Dee]

JASmith, I get your point, but Iraq posed no threat to the U.S. It seems that preemptive strikes against 3rd world countries such as Iraq for what they might do, is a little "out there" for a country the stature of the United States. It was like the high school football team, playing the preschooler's team. I mean come on.
These countries are no real threat. Afghanistan's terrorist training camps could have been delt with, with smart bombs and carpet bombing. It isn't realistic to think that you will dig them out of the mountains, but they do understand when hajji is there one minute, and atomized the next.
An offensive to prevent having to go defensive against someone like Russia, or China is one thing, but Iraq? I ain't buyin that one. That was nothing more than a GW Bush temper tantrum because Hussein didn't show him any respect. That was a mid life testosterone rush, that in the end will accomplish nothing, and a pseudo Saddam will soon appear when we pull out of there. That type of ruler is what it takes to keep all the factions from killing each other. The country is in far worse chaos, and has been destablized, than it was when Saddam was in charge. Brutal he was, but that's what those factions understand. Democracy is a joke to them. Their world is theocracy.

[magooch]

One of the things that this country is afflicted with is lack of memory.  I remember how the Clintons and a whole lot of prominent Democrats said that it was absolutely imperative that Ole Saddam had to be taken down.  That was until GWB actually with the blessing of Congress decided to take it on. 

I remember how Saddam set all them oil wells on fire when he was leaving Kuwait.  For that one act alone, that sonofabitch deserved to be ripped to pieces.

I remember how Saddam lobbed missles onto Israel--just for the hell of it.  I'm sure he had some kind of rationale for it, but in my book, that was enough reason to take him out.

People forget how Hitler was allowed to do this and that until he became a very big problem for the whole world.  Saddam kept asking for it and he finally got what he deserved.

We cannot afford to allow the Muslim terrorists to use Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other stan as a sactuary.  It's either pay now, or pay dearly later.