what is a just war?

[Cabin4]

OLDSHOOTER. Good posts, all true. The war we are fighting is against the cancer islam, not a coubtry. Kinda like fighting mad dogs, go to their lair. Islam is a cancer, a boil on the butt of the ENTIRE world. POWDERMAN. 

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

This cycle will never end until people in this country finally realize that we are planting the seeds of hate all over this freakin planet. And when those seeds grow up and learn our to fight, we always blame it on the one who fired the most recent shot.

Even when we engage these wars, we fight them half-hearted. Look at what going on now in Afghanistan.... It’s been months since our General on the ground has asked for more troops to so he can win. He is not likely to get anything and this war will be drawn out for years to come. Obama said last week, his goal is not pass on this war to the next president. Well, I hope you are all in for another 7 years of this crape because that’s what he means.

Our troops have no business in these other countries. Bring them home to secure the invasion that’s happening on our southern border. Have them support our efforts to ensure our ports are safe and the rest of our vast boarder. We need to turn inward and focus on what we must do to turn our country around. We need a national energy policy that promotes private capitol to develop alternative energy and exploit the natural energy sources WE have. We need to demand free & fair trade with all nations and quite trying to force our living standards down the throats of other nations as a prerequisite. We need to get the hell out of the UN and finally put in force real campaign funding & legislation lobbing reforms. We need to stop spending more than our governments can take in from tax revenues so we stop borrowing from China and other nations. We need to stop supporting and forming these hard alliances with other nations. All it does is make us the enemy of their enemies and drag into their conflicts either directly or indirectly.

Our country is totally and completely broken because of the malfeasance of our state and federal governments. We are in no position to reach out and force our stupidity on anyone. Our nation was founded on the principals of self reliance and isolation from the rest of the world. And all though I will even admit that total isolation is not possible in today’s world, it is and certainly can be from the a political & policy perspective totally doable.

[Oldshooter]

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

TOOK THAT RIGHT OUTA THE OBAMA PLAY BOOK DID YA? Maybe you should start your own apology tour of the middle east!

If they were Christian there would not be a problem Pard!

HELLO! THE WARS ARE ON GOING !!!!!!!!   I dont know how things are out there in the left side of the country but Most of us dont cut and run and come home with our football cause we dont like the way the ballgame is being played! Quit whining and convince the rest of your state to get their heads outa their behinds and you will have more luck convincing me to cut and run and stay home and not upset people that are not gonna be happy until we die! and they thave mosques right here where Christian  Churches of worship used to be!

[powderman]

Cabin 4. Like it or not we are in a war, islam is the enemy. That cancer  must be fought before it totally controls the world. Better to fight the Godless ones over there than here. They now have one of their own as president. The Godless ones intend to control the world for satan himself. Islam is a false religion, and mohamed was a false prophet. The goal of islam was, is, will always be, the total anhilation of everything Jesus Christ taught and built. POWDERMAN. 

[teamnelson]

PMan has a point ... when war has been declared on you, opting to ignore it does not mean you are not at war. If those who declare war on you lack the means to wage it, then you can afford to ignore it. Those who have in fact declared war on us both have the means and the motive.

One more time ... anyone recognize why CYBERCOMMAND is significant?

[gypsyman]

Just a few facts.
No. 1-Saddam Hussein didn't comply with the United Nations inspectors, not the U.S. inspectors. If he had, he would probably be alive today. In this point, could he have weapons to attack the U.S. No, but Isreal is well with reach.
No. 2-If the actions of this country are what are causing the Muslims to hate us, what did we do in 1801 when Thomas Jefferson had to send the Marines to Libya(Tripoli) to stop the Barbary Coast pirate's from attacking ships.(somethings havn't changed in 200 years!!) Or the Moros's in the Phiippines at the turn of the last century. Or when they took the Olympic athlete's hostage in the early 70's. Or when they held American's hostage when that swash buckling of a president Carter was in office. Were any of those instance's our fault? Oh, I'm sure somebody on this board will find something to tie them into something we did. Just ask Barock. According to him, it's all our fault.  gypsyman

[Cabin4]

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

TOOK THAT RIGHT OUTA THE OBAMA PLAY BOOK DID YA? Maybe you should start your own apology tour of the middle east!

If they were Christian there would not be a problem Pard!

HELLO! THE WARS ARE ON GOING !!!!!!!!   I dont know how things are out there in the left side of the country but Most of us dont cut and run and come home with our football cause we dont like the way the ballgame is being played! Quit whining and convince the rest of your state to get their heads outa their behinds and you will have more luck convincing me to cut and run and stay home and not upset people that are not gonna be happy until we die! and they thave mosques right here where Christian  Churches of worship used to be!

My playbook is the constitution OldShooter and our founding principles. Obama has nothing to do with this nor does the Left Coast way of thinking. I don't subscribe to any political party ideology. For me there is only right and wrong policy. My basis for that which is right and wrong is our constitution and founding principles. How anyone can align these M.E. conflicts or our failed foreign in general with these two main guiding processes in mind is far beyond me.

There is nothing conservative or constitutional about sending our troops all over the globe to man, threaten and or fight on foreign soil. Just wars these are not. The only thing "just" about the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts is they are "just" freakin wrong, stupid, anti-founding principles and non-constitutionally based.

Until people in this country wake up and stop subscribing blindly to a political party ideology, we will have just more of the same trash to deal with. Higher deficits, more social programs, more big corp. & super rich influence over policy decision, more dependency on foreign energy , more wars, more of our national treasure (tax dollars) send abroad for nation building and a non-military invasion across our southern border.

I hope you like what we have today because you are going to have more of if we can even survive.

[JASmith]

This has been an interesting discussion, but the arguments, even though worded differently, are becoming truly repetitive.  So, while I plan to continue reading this thread, this will be my last post unless some truly new points are made.

Remember "Those who neglect the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them!"

I will be very much encouraged if the discussions move in the direction of documented historical lessons connected with today's situation.  We are where we are because of our history and current decisions by our policymakers.

[teamnelson]

So if a foreign NATION or ORGANIZATION uses non-violent means to directly disrupt your power grid for example, specifically comprising the computer networks that manage and regulate the systems operating power generation plants and substations,

What if they penetrate secure financial regulatory systems to disrupt the flow of critical economic data while we're in the midst of a crisis?

What if they disrupt emergency management communications systems during a national emergency such as a hurricane or viral outbreak?

using this Just War discussion, what is your response as the Commander and Chief?

[Oldshooter]

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

TOOK THAT RIGHT OUTA THE OBAMA PLAY BOOK DID YA? Maybe you should start your own apology tour of the middle east!

If they were Christian there would not be a problem Pard!

HELLO! THE WARS ARE ON GOING !!!!!!!!   I dont know how things are out there in the left side of the country but Most of us dont cut and run and come home with our football cause we dont like the way the ballgame is being played! Quit whining and convince the rest of your state to get their heads outa their behinds and you will have more luck convincing me to cut and run and stay home and not upset people that are not gonna be happy until we die! and they thave mosques right here where Christian  Churches of worship used to be!

My playbook is the constitution OldShooter and our founding principles. Obama has nothing to do with this nor does the Left Coast way of thinking. I don't subscribe to any political party ideology. For me there is only right and wrong policy. My basis for that which is right and wrong is our constitution and founding principles. How anyone can align these M.E. conflicts or our failed foreign in general with these two main guiding processes in mind is far beyond me.

There is nothing conservative or constitutional about sending our troops all over the globe to man, threaten and or fight on foreign soil. Just wars these are not. The only thing "just" about the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts is they are "just" freakin wrong, stupid, anti-founding principles and non-constitutionally based.

Until people in this country wake up and stop subscribing blindly to a political party ideology, we will have just more of the same trash to deal with. Higher deficits, more social programs, more big corp. & super rich influence over policy decision, more dependency on foreign energy , more wars, more of our national treasure (tax dollars) send abroad for nation building and a non-military invasion across our southern border.

I hope you like what we have today because you are going to have more of if we can even survive.

SO WE SHOULD BAIL OUT? And really screw our service people! kinda like VN. Oh sorry guys we made a mistake that scrapnel in your chest and arms was a big error we're sorry, yall come on back now we have made a new plan!

Sorry charlie, its a little late for Isolationism, Peacenik rhetoric, NOW only confirms my assertion that you are suffeing from hindsight shudda wudda I'll bet you werent whining when  Desert Storm started !
Like I said tell it to someone that dont know better!

 

[Oldshooter]

PMan has a point ... when war has been declared on you, opting to ignore it does not mean you are not at war. If those who declare war on you lack the means to wage it, then you can afford to ignore it. Those who have in fact declared war on us both have the means and the motive.

One more time ... anyone recognize why CYBERCOMMAND is significant?

"Our increasing dependency on cyberspace, alongside a growing array of cyber threats and vulnerabilities, adds a new element of risk to our national security," Gates wrote in the memo. "To address this risk effectively and to secure freedom of action in cyberspace, the Department of Defense requires a command that possesses the required technical capability and remains focused on the integration of cyberspace operations."

The U.S. announced it would create a cyber command earlier this year, after putting the Air Force's plans for such a group on hold last August. In May, top military officials argued for a single joint command and told the media that a cyber attack could merit a more conventional, kinetic, response. Last month, the Obama administration released a cybersecurity review that called for the creation of a White House office that would help create the nation's cyber policy.

The U.S. Cyber Command will be established by this October and be fully operational by October 2010. It will be likely headquartered with the NSA in Fort Meade, Maryland.

Prolly be the next front TN, at least the next target!

[Cabin4]

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

TOOK THAT RIGHT OUTA THE OBAMA PLAY BOOK DID YA? Maybe you should start your own apology tour of the middle east!

If they were Christian there would not be a problem Pard!

HELLO! THE WARS ARE ON GOING !!!!!!!!   I dont know how things are out there in the left side of the country but Most of us dont cut and run and come home with our football cause we dont like the way the ballgame is being played! Quit whining and convince the rest of your state to get their heads outa their behinds and you will have more luck convincing me to cut and run and stay home and not upset people that are not gonna be happy until we die! and they thave mosques right here where Christian  Churches of worship used to be!

My playbook is the constitution OldShooter and our founding principles. Obama has nothing to do with this nor does the Left Coast way of thinking. I don't subscribe to any political party ideology. For me there is only right and wrong policy. My basis for that which is right and wrong is our constitution and founding principles. How anyone can align these M.E. conflicts or our failed foreign in general with these two main guiding processes in mind is far beyond me.

There is nothing conservative or constitutional about sending our troops all over the globe to man, threaten and or fight on foreign soil. Just wars these are not. The only thing "just" about the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts is they are "just" freakin wrong, stupid, anti-founding principles and non-constitutionally based.

Until people in this country wake up and stop subscribing blindly to a political party ideology, we will have just more of the same trash to deal with. Higher deficits, more social programs, more big corp. & super rich influence over policy decision, more dependency on foreign energy , more wars, more of our national treasure (tax dollars) send abroad for nation building and a non-military invasion across our southern border.

I hope you like what we have today because you are going to have more of if we can even survive.

SO WE SHOULD BAIL OUT?

C4 Answer: YES we should get out and save our troops from any more death and save our tax dollars for something worth while.

Sorry charlie, its a little late for Isolationism, Peacenik rhetoric,

C4 Answer: I did not know that our founding Principals, our Constitution or historical figures such as Thomas Jefferson were Peacnik concepts.

 

[Oldshooter]

OS, TN....so what would be 'winning' this current war, or define winning...?

i KNOW YOU DIDN'T ASK ME THAT        It would be redundant to reply to that question! or are you gonna ask until I get it "Right" errrr "left"  or the one you wanna hear!   

[Oldshooter]

We are fighting against the blow back from our own stupid foreign policy actions and miss-guided wars. It just so happens that our stupid foreign policy and miss-guided wars are focused on a region of the world that whelming follow islam. If this were a Christian region, we would be fighting them right now.

TOOK THAT RIGHT OUTA THE OBAMA PLAY BOOK DID YA? Maybe you should start your own apology tour of the middle east!

If they were Christian there would not be a problem Pard!

HELLO! THE WARS ARE ON GOING !!!!!!!!   I dont know how things are out there in the left side of the country but Most of us dont cut and run and come home with our football cause we dont like the way the ballgame is being played! Quit whining and convince the rest of your state to get their heads outa their behinds and you will have more luck convincing me to cut and run and stay home and not upset people that are not gonna be happy until we die! and they thave mosques right here where Christian  Churches of worship used to be!

My playbook is the constitution OldShooter and our founding principles. Obama has nothing to do with this nor does the Left Coast way of thinking. I don't subscribe to any political party ideology. For me there is only right and wrong policy. My basis for that which is right and wrong is our constitution and founding principles. How anyone can align these M.E. conflicts or our failed foreign in general with these two main guiding processes in mind is far beyond me.

There is nothing conservative or constitutional about sending our troops all over the globe to man, threaten and or fight on foreign soil. Just wars these are not. The only thing "just" about the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts is they are "just" freakin wrong, stupid, anti-founding principles and non-constitutionally based.

Until people in this country wake up and stop subscribing blindly to a political party ideology, we will have just more of the same trash to deal with. Higher deficits, more social programs, more big corp. & super rich influence over policy decision, more dependency on foreign energy , more wars, more of our national treasure (tax dollars) send abroad for nation building and a non-military invasion across our southern border.

I hope you like what we have today because you are going to have more of if we can even survive.

SO WE SHOULD BAIL OUT?

C4 Answer: YES we should get out and save our troops from any more death and save our tax dollars for something worth while.

Sorry charlie, its a little late for Isolationism, Peacenik rhetoric,

C4 Answer: I did not know that our founding Principals, our Constitution or historical figures such as Thomas Jefferson were Peacnik concepts.

 

I cannot accept that! over done! So you surrender to the ragheads and accept defeat. THEY DECLARED WAR ON US !

SAy you dont like bush say you dont like obama, but there is a war even if you dont accept it c4. ever heard of an ostrich!   

[teamnelson]

TM7,

The presupposition of is that cyberspace is just a new battlespace; like land, sea, air and space before it, the potential of that environment could wreak serious disaster to the nation and its people. Hostile intent and hostile act is the same in any battlespace, and when a nation declares war on you in any space, you are at war whether you like it or not in every space.

The Cyber threat is not targeting military objectives - like navigation on military platforms - but instead prefers targets where the damage is primarily civilian, like infrastructure. While flying two planes into the twin towers was symbolic and had some effect on our economy, shutting down wall street at the height of trading on a particularly loaded day would have had greater effect. I can think of several thousand scenarios where a cyber intrusion can result directly in human deaths (i.e. H1N1 storage temperature control, power grid in winter, traffic control grid at rush hour, pharmacy data). The world already knows that in land, sea, air and space we're the heavyweight champ, and few have the resources. So Cyber is the best option, and China has free internet for citizens with free hardware, software, and training to encourage hacking and piracy. That's way cheaper than a new carrier, with far greater and quicker results.

Winning ... the textbook answer is neutralization of the enemy's ability to wage war. Answer two questions: who is the enemy, and how do they wage war (motivation and means). Break their motivation and remove their means; or accelerate the tempo beyond their ability to keep up.

[ironglow]

  Part of the problem is 20th century thinking. Heretofore, we fought other nations..nice, neat borders where we just plant our boot..occupy, and the war is over. We did that with both Germany and Japan. The Korean conflict was rather clear cut; confined to one peninsula, and raging around the 38th parallel
   Now we face an evil ideaology, one bent on our destruction. On 9/11/01 they attacked us in a most cowardly, vicious and evil way. This evil ideology is a transnational movement, not confined to any national borders. While the bulk of the murderers of 9/11 were Saudi nationals, they were not alone. Some were from Yemen and other "old time" geographical areas. Suicide bombers the world over have come from Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Somalia, Kenya, Sri Lanka, Chechniya, Indonesia, the Philipines, Red China and even Canada!
  Then too, let's not overlook the sizeable number who, like the Ft Hood mass murderer....came from right here in the US!

  So those whose thinking is confined to the old, 20th century, "geographical territory" example, might think that we must fight all these countries..including Canada and ourselves. ..And that simply because of where the terrorists come from!

  That territorial conquest line of thought is obviously faulty in the 21st century...

  So who is our enemy? Who indeed? The mad terrorist murderers come from many countries and are fat, thin, short, tall, male, female fair, dark, blond or brunette...
   ..But there is one common denominator, one characteristic, which THEY ALL SHARE..an EVIL ideaology
  Yes; we could have ignored the terrorists, and like Muhammad Ali, have gone along playing "rope-a-dope with every punch they threw at us...or we could fight back.  ..But, seeing Ali now makes one wonder if rope-a-dope was a good idea.
  Besides, Clinton tried virtually ignoring the first bombing attempt against the WTC..treating it as a simple , legal question concerning a mad sheikh. Then we soon paid the price with a couple embassies , the USS Cole and the complete destruction of the WTC

  Keep in mind, the old "chess board"  territorial war is not at all what is going on here, so to ask .."what are we doing in XX country?" is a non-starter..we are going after the terrorists wherever we can find them in sufficient numbers to liquidate.
   
    Of course, the ideal we are working toward is eventually having the local populace in a position to be able to control the radical, evil elements within their own cultures. For thjose who ask; this is a mark of success in the field..when as in Iraq, we can turn over security to a duly elected government that doesn't harbor such wildly radical and evil ideals.

[teamnelson]

we are going after the terrorists wherever we can find them in sufficient numbers to liquidate..

Its the only option we have; isolation won't stop the war.

[powderman]

we are going after the terrorists wherever we can find them in sufficient numbers to liquidate..

Its the only option we have; isolation won't stop the war.

YEP. POWDERMAN. 

[Cabin4]

we are going after the terrorists wherever we can find them in sufficient numbers to liquidate..

Its the only option we have; isolation won't stop the war.

YEP. POWDERMAN. 

Its estimated that there are about 1 billion muslins in the world today. If we are going to "liquidate" them all we have our work cut out for us. In the past 8 years its estimated that about 500 thousand have been killed in the conflicts. That means we have about 900,500,000 to kill. However, don't forget the reproductive rate at about 700,000 growth every 5 years. So at our current killing rate we are net impact negative a few hundred thousand.

We are loosing at our stated objective of liquidation. There are more muslins today then when the war started. Enjoy the process. Its going to last forever.


Country Number of Muslims
Indonesia 203 million
Pakistan 174 million
India 161 million
Bangladesh 145 million
Egypt 79 million
Nigeria 78 million
Iran 74 million
Turkey 74 million
Algeria 34 million
Morocco 32 million
Iraq 30 million
Sudan 30 million
Afghanistan 28 million
Ethiopia 28 million
Uzbekistan 26 million
Saudi Arabia 25 million
Yemen 23 million
China 22 million
Syria 20 million
Russia 16 million

[Oldshooter]

our stated objective of liquidation

So far C4 its only me and one or two others that feel that way, and they ain't turning us loose last I checked! Give "US" the command and control, Pardner and "WE" could improve that efficiency, I'll bet!

C4 I sympathize with your dilemma and appreciate your position but you were born way to late!

This country moved away from the constitution years ago! I ain't saying that is a good thing, but I'm  not fantasizing anymore. I will not be on this earth all that much longer and I am growing impatient with our progress.

It is my honest opinion that to get back to where you want this country to be there will have to be millions of people annihilated. and I dont mean their people, if you know what I mean!

[ironglow]

C4;
  So what's your solution...surrender?    ..or perhaps, conversion?

[mirage1988]

C4 should invite them all to california- maybe that would be enough weight to break it off into the sea- get rid of dollywood, the ragheads, and pelosi at one time.   

[Cabin4]

C4;
  So what's your solution...surrender?    ..or perhaps, conversion?

Surrender would mean our troops are taken as POWs, so no I do not advocate surrender. I do advocate that we get our troops out of these countries. The Arabs and the rest of the world can call it whatever they want. They can even claim victory for all I care. It’s not worth one more of our sons lives.

We need to focus all our attention on securing our borders and preventing these terrorists from getting inside to begin with. The root cause of all these issues is oil. Solve our energy independence issues and the terror issue will eventually go away.

To put it very simply, I don't give a $-hit about these M.E countries or any foreign nation for that matter. Our existence as a nation, despite what the politicians tell us is NOT measured by what we achieve around the globe. Our nation was not formed to force spread democracy all over and nation build. Why anyone here could care what form of government they have in Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Vietnam, etc is beyond me. There simply is no mandate for trying to force every nation onto our political type of system. I could care less who their leaders are and how many of their own citizens they kill. Not my problem or the problem of our government!

I don't what to see one penny of our money transferred to an Arab nation for oil. Our dependency on foreign oil represents the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind. We must be completely out of our minds to continue to let this happen. I rather live in a cabin with no electricity, running water and drive a horse to work if that’s what it takes to stop bringing oil from these Arab countries. And while we continue to buy oil from people that hate us, we have oil here and energy sources un-tapped!

Makes absolutely no freakin sense.

[Cabin4]

C4 should invite them all to california- maybe that would be enough weight to break it off into the sea- get rid of dollywood, the ragheads, and pelosi at one time.   

Dollywood is in Tennessee. I know for sure. I was there this past summer. Great place. Agree, pelosi and the rag heads can go into the ocean.

[mirage1988]

Oops- i meant hollyweird.

[scootrd]

Same should have held true for Iraq in my opinion an unjust war

"Determined as we are to avoid, if possible, wasting the energies of our people in war and destruction, we shall avoid implicating ourselves with the powers of Europe, even in support of principles which we mean to pursue.

"For us to attempt by war to reform all Europe, and bring them back to principles of morality and a respect for the equal rights of nations, would show us to be only maniacs of another character." --Thomas Jefferson


In my opinion Afghanistan and Pakistan border is a Just war as it is harboring those who attacked us on 9/11

"I am ever unwilling that [peace] should be disturbed as long as the rights and interests of the nations can be preserved. But whensoever hostile aggressions on these require a resort to war, we must meet our duty and convince the world that we are just friends and brave enemies." --Thomas Jefferson

"It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it." --Thomas Jefferson

"The protection of our citizens, the spirit and honor of our country, require that force should be interposed to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson

"[It is] my disposition to maintain peace until its condition shall be made less tolerable than that of war itself." --Thomas Jefferson

"Any free nation has a right to punish those who have done them an injury... While I advise [another nation] like an affectionate friend to avoid unnecessary war, I do not assume the right of restraining [them] from punishing [their] enemies." --Thomas Jefferson

We should also remove ourselves from the Israeli Palestinian  conflict helping neither. Unless they ask us as a neutral party to help them broker peace , In my opinion We are unjustly interjecting ourselves  

"A war between [two despots] is like the battle of the kite and snake. Whichever destroys the other leaves a destroyer the less for the world." --Thomas Jefferson

"We ask for peace and justice from all nations; and we will remain uprightly neutral in fact." --Thomas Jefferson

"War between two nations cannot diminish the rights of the rest of the world remaining at peace. The doctrine that the rights of nations remaining quietly in the exercise of moral and social duties, are to give way to the convenience of those who prefer plundering and murdering one another, is a monstrous doctrine, and ought to yield to the more rational law, that "the wrong which two nations endeavor to inflict on each other must not infringe on the rights or conveniences of those remaining at peace." --Thomas Jefferson


No truer words were ever spoken.

"The most successful war seldom pays for its losses." --Thomas Jefferson

[Cabin4]

Scootrd

The only problem with the Afgan/Pakistan issue is, we are nation building. Agree 100% on the rest and appreciate the TJ quotes. More people need to start listening to TJ. The guy knew how to keep us focused on our long term best interests.

[Oldshooter]

No truer words were ever spoken.

"The most successful war seldom pays for its losses." --Thomas Jefferson

Well scooter that is profound sure enough, but no one ever said war was a good thing!

My favorite quote is "War is hell"  William Tecumseh Sherman.  And I aint no yankee!

Its just, sometimes you gotta do ugly things to defend yourself!

All I 've been saying in this thread is that if your gonna prosecute a war then do it with all your ability or stay home!

Make no mistake here Gentlemen, These people want us dead or converted! And they have shown that they are serious! We need to make "them" understand just  what that really  means!  Like our Fathers did before us! If you want peace you gotta be prepared to fight. Freedom aint free! No they dont have a country, they do have a religion and they mean us harm! Leave no stone unturned and no hole unchecked.

This paper hanging muslim Socialist we have for president wont be here forever! He would like nothing better than to hear people say"lets get out".

[scootrd]

Scootrd

The only problem with the Afgan/Pakistan issue is, we are nation building. Agree 100% on the rest and appreciate the TJ quotes. More people need to start listening to TJ. The guy knew how to keep us focused on our long term best interests.

Hi Cabin
I agree with your assessment. I do not believe we should be there to nation build. I believe we should be there to get the ones responsible for 9/11 (weather in Afghanistan or Pakistan)  then we should make an exit and bring our young men home and remain vigil in securing our borders and ports and terminals.

[rio grande]

we are going after the terrorists wherever we can find them in sufficient numbers to liquidate..

Its the only option we have; isolation won't stop the war.

TN, of all people, you should know better.
You might as well put a skull and crossbones bumper sticker on your car, or a cute little demon.
It's a false spirituality that believes violence saves us, war brings peace, might makes right, nuclear weapons are our security, God blesses wars, so that we don't seek forgiveness and reconciliation but victory and domination, and turns the good news of love your enemies into "liquidation" and torture.
IT'S HERESY, BLASPHEMY, and IDOLATRY.
It's a false religion of death and the glorification of destruction and suffering.

[teamnelson]

Don't misunderstand me RG, no way do I advocate might making right. I'm a noninterventionist as opposed to an isolationist. But ... we are as of this moment in a war perhaps not of our choosing. So we fight it justly (adverb) and pray never to have to again. I do also believe that when God gifts a nation with resources and abilities He expects them to be used for His glory. Sometimes that's famine relief, sometimes it's protecting the weak no different than if I'm the only or strongest man present when a womans car breaks down, or she's being attacked.