what is a just war?

[ironglow]

TN;
  It is quite obvious, few really understand counter-insurgency warfare or the surge strategy..or perhaps they don't want to understand it.
  Sure we're still in Iraq, but we have less and less presence there every week..that is what the surge strategy is all about.
     Did anyone ever consider that the combat troops would resent being cheated out before the mission is completed ? I know many of them and I am sure TN does also, and I know this may be hard for some to grasp..but most troops don't want to be yanked out when they are kicking terrrorist butts.
    If I heard it once here, I've heard it 20 times..we have a volunteer military. Many enlisted after 9/11 with the aim of taking the fight to the bad guys  for the C in c oranyone else to pull them out now, would be a betrayal. Politicians may want to "cut & run" but thje combat troops I know do not want to do so.

  How do you think a fighter feels, when he's kicking butt..and his trainer throws in the towel ? Our combat troops have proven themselves real fighters !

[teamnelson]

IG, a close friend recently brought our Bn home from OEF. The actions of our Marines at the tactical and operational level was superb; my friend is truly a gifted inspirational leader who can recognize a bad situation, and motivate his men to fight through it. But at the strategic level ... it sounds like State Dep/NATO-ISAF are playing games with $, and they do not realize how that affects life at the tactical level. Anyone who has served understands the concept of keeping higher happy while doing what you must to stay alive with honor intact.

TM7, surge worked in Iraq from a military standpoint. We're leaving a whole heck of a lot faster that we would've without it. Could care less from a political standpoint.

Cyber war is the war of 1000 cuts, not a big hack or fire sale. Plenty published on it; suggest you catch up. What youre talking about with pulse weapons is EW, not CW or IW (C4I). Used to be an EW guy in the 80s ... I'll sum it up with this: we consume as many batteries per person as liters of water per day now. That'll bite us in the butt one day.

[ironglow]

  As I said earlier, most liberals blame our foreign policy for the strained relations between the US and some Muslim countries..implying that it is conservative style foreign policy which irritates them.
  Well, here's another thing that drives them to hate us even more..and it is not the conservatives who are pushing this garbage...

  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=116899

[scootrd]

We can and round and round over Iraq, it's about spreading democracy and all that in ME or It about weapons of mass destruction BS and all that ....I will never buy it. Iraq was about maintaining our oil interests . And in case those with short term memory forget .. yeah Saddam was a bad guy ..but he was our bad guy. we gave them weapons to fight Iran , then told Iran that Iraq had weapons , then told Iraq that Iran knows about the weapons. Then sat back and watched them fight each other.Heres a great pic ....Remember this ....

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

And here's a good read.. Rumsfelds December 19-20, 1983 visit to Baghdad made him the highest-ranking US official to visit Iraq in 6 years. He met Saddam and the two discussed topics of mutual interest, according to the Iraqi Foreign Ministry. [Saddam] made it clear that Iraq was not interested in making mischief in the world, Rumsfeld later told The New York Times. It struck us as useful to have a relationship, given that we were interested in solving the Mideast problems.

Just 12 days after the meeting, on January 1, 1984, The Washington Post reported that the United States in a shift in policy, has informed friendly Persian Gulf nations that the defeat of Iraq in the 3-year-old war with Iran would be contrary to U.S. interests and has made several moves to prevent that result.

And here's another quote just prior to the Iraq war we entered under the Guise of WMD

"The fundamental issue is, the day after Saddam is removed, the Iraqi oil industry is open for grabs, and it will depend upon the government of Iraq to decide how it will dispense that resource," says oil consultant Rob Sobhani, "Certainly, American companies would be in a very, very strong position to compete for the right."

I think the above quotes says it all

Our foreign policy sucks and is inconsistent. And not one ...I repeat ... not one of the 9/11 ilk were Iraqi nationality  .. They were a mix of Jordan Syrian and Saudi Arabians. We meddle where we dont belong and no-one will ever convince me Iraq had anything to do with anything other than a chance at an oil grab. We fight that war for EXXON, Shell, BP ChevronTexaco and the Like.
 
Additionally , if you look at the military occupied areas where there was the heavist concentration of fighting Mosel , Kirkuk, Bayji, Haditham Baghdad, Basra -  it was all along the central Iraq strategic pipeline.  keeping that good ol' crude safe and flowing to Turkey in the north and to the Gulf in the south.

Afghanistan is another issue. if 9/11 attackers set up camp anywhere else in the world , I would still expect us to be where they are and wipe them out, then leave. We are not there to nation build, we are there to bring those who attacked ultimate Justice. And quite frankly I could care less if we leave it in rubble when we leave. Don't harbor criminals and we would not be there. And if Pakistan continues to do so we should enter if need be seek out Ossama  deal swift justice then leave, and the hell with sensitive foreign policy with Pakistan.  Don't harbor him and we wont be there.

Israel and Palestine are a whole separate issue, and we should not meddle on one side or the other unless we are asked by both  parties to help broker peace. Otherwise it's not our business.

[teamnelson]

Only point of clarification ... Iran had US weapons; Iraq had all Soviet weapons, training, etc. But it comes out the same.

[ironglow]

   see next post

[ironglow]

    Back then, the US govt was playing the middle east nations against each other..

  ..Same as the Muslim apologists are playing we Americans against each other..even on this forum..

[Squib]

Team Nelson, quick question

were the officers from 3/7 all medal chasers while occupying Ramadi in 2006-07?  I seem to remember seeing "the only muslim chaplain" before and wonder what you thought of them (maybe I am thinking of someone else, maybe it was the only arab guy, arab speaking guy, only chaplain specializing in islam, ACTUAL muslim, only one at a different time than you, something like that.... are you the same guy?

doesn't matter if you are though, here's my observation/complaint:  it seemed to me that if a guy got shot standing post over there that no one really cared, if mortars got dropped on base and two guys got maimed or killed then so what but if an officer got nailed all hell broke loose and choppers were doing nasty things, cougars would be rolling down.. what's the main drag called again.. because a non-expendable person got killed.  anyways marines in town were supposed to walk around and look really big and intimidating but other than that what was actually being accomplished there?  kicking in people's doors and rattling them up.  I know you see it from a multi-faceted viewpoint but can you give a thumbs up to that if it actually brings stability?  From a moral stand-point I can't condone it, and I used to think it was alright from a victory standpoint but where is the victory.  I have to side with cabin4 on all of this... I don't care about losing either, I got blind and crippled for six months just for doing all that crap to people/home invasion, and I felt like I deserved it.  God works in mysterious ways, god-allah-yahweh-whatever, and I don't think us vs them is gonna help anyone.  All I see is multinational authority growing and not much else, even the oil money can be debated but not the tendrils of BIG government.  

so called patriotism doesn't excuse an occupation.  I believe in murder, it's honest and effecient, but occupation is sloppy, slow and ineffecient.  Also warriors deserve to die clean with honor and that goes for US Marines and Mujhadeen both.  as long as we're over there then EPWs will continue to get one on one counseling sessions with HET and us contractors, soldiers and western sympathizers will get their heads cut off in gruesome fashion...   and ieds will be in the streets.  MORALLY SPEAKING FOR STARTERS, CAN YOU CONDONE IT AS A PASTOR, QUESTION TWO IS FOR PEACE WE NEED TO BRING WAR BUT CAN WE BRING ENOUGH TO FINISH THE JOB CLEAN. last time I commented on the middle east situation on another thread people got nasty so this is it for me on this one, I would like to read your answer though chaplain.  ps thanks for taking religion out of a comfortable environment to the people that needed it most (I wasn't religious then but I respect it enough now to know we needed it over there)

[Spanky]

Squib,

When, where and with what unit were you with when you were in Iraq?



Spanky

[Squib]

no more posting, I'm catching enough heat on the thread called barbie or something like that, I'll pm you

[Squib]

yes, introspection is a good thing that usually comes at a terrible price (in my case a mortar made into an ied that took some face and blood with it and left lasting damage all over my left side)

I don't believe what doesn't kills you makes you stronger (but maybe I'm a sissy) but I did get wiser and work on that character developement

what's this more you speak of, you're the first one to not criticize my views on the Middle East so I'm intrigued (tryptophan got you relaxed)

what happened to the pastor, I'm about to go to bed and want that discussion quick before I go to sleep and derail my thought-train (do the rest of you have stations because mine just goes till it jumps tracks)

[teamnelson]

Squib, thanks for your sacrifice! I'm a Christian Chaplain, was with 2/3 for two tours, and learned Arabic in a previous life as a Marine linguist. I'm with Cybercommand now ... wounded in Haqlaniyah so they got me on a shore tour.

Out of the dozens of battlefield memorials I conducted, Petraeus came to one, when my boss LtCol Galeai was killed conducting a sheikhs council meeting. I understand your point.

Sun Tzu said that once the king has declared war it is the business of generals to wage war, not the king, to include strategy. The US has 500+ civilians many who have never served questioning nonstop each decision, plus the state dept, plus the media ... if I ever meet the imbed that posted pictures of my friends body on a news blog before his wife was notified ... How do you have a just war with no or changing definitions of victory? How do you conduct war justly with the joke we call ROE? I hear you bro.

Honor is how each Marine, soldier, sailor, airman conducts themself in execution of their role, the sum total of which we pray results in a war fought justly. But whether or not the war was just to begin with cannot be fixed once it starts. As you can imagine, this is the subject I spend most of my time in discussion with warfighters.   

[powderman]

no more posting, I'm catching enough heat on the thread called barbie or something like that, I'll pm you

Good idea. POWDERMAN. 

[rio grande]

Squib, thanks for your sacrifice! I'm a Christian Chaplain, was with 2/3 for two tours, and learned Arabic in a previous life as a Marine linguist. I'm with Cybercommand now ... wounded in Haqlaniyah so they got me on a shore tour.

Out of the dozens of battlefield memorials I conducted, Petraeus came to one, when my boss LtCol Galeai was killed conducting a sheikhs council meeting. I understand your point.

Sun Tzu said that once the king has declared war it is the business of generals to wage war, not the king, to include strategy. The US has 500+ civilians many who have never served questioning nonstop each decision, plus the state dept, plus the media ... if I ever meet the imbed that posted pictures of my friends body on a news blog before his wife was notified ... How do you have a just war with no or changing definitions of victory? How do you conduct war justly with the joke we call ROE? I hear you bro.

Honor is how each Marine, soldier, sailor, airman conducts themself in execution of their role, the sum total of which we pray results in a war fought justly. But whether or not the war was just to begin with cannot be fixed once it starts. As you can imagine, this is the subject I spend most of my time in discussion with warfighters.  

Sun Tzu also said,
"There is no instance of a country having benefited
    from prolonged warfare."
Our 'leaders' seem determined to wage war without end.
Do you ever ask yourself 'why'?

You say, " But whether or not the war was just to begin with cannot be fixed once it starts."  So, we just carry on with an unjust (and/or unwise) war?
Do two wrongs make a right?

"Kings" and "Generals"... in this country neither kings nor generals should rule. I Thank God I do not have to salute any 'General'.

Worship, adoration, and glorification of war, warriors, death and destruction is sacrilege and idolatry.

[rio grande]

A defensive war could be a Just War, and although I am a Protestant I generally agree w/ the Roman Catholic guidelines on what makes for a Just War.
I deplore the Muslim presence (invasion) in Europe, and were I living in Europe I would join those who work to stop and reverse Muslim immigration.  In the '90's I supported  Serbian friends in Kosovo who fought the illegal and cruel Albanian Muslim invasion (although there were excesses and atrocities committed by both sides there, war crimes I could never condone).
If Muslims seriously posed a threat to the United States, in North America, I would join TeamNelson (and maybe some of you other guys) on the front lines.  I have no problem with that. I admire bravery and self-sacrifice of soldiers who fight for peace and justice.
But I consider the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to be unnecessary and therefore, unjust. The Taliban certainly are a bad crowd but do not present a serious threat to our country.  Disgust at Muslim attitudes, revenge, or 'nation-building' (a  touchy-feely worded excuse for Imperialism) are not sufficient justification for these wars.

[Squib]

you said imperialism... I'm back in this one now...

it used to be about empires though, now it's NWO

I don't know if that is a difference of ambition or technology and I don't much care since they've got their hooks in the US now, and the US has done plenty of powerplays- since the roosevelt corollary stating that we own north and south america.

back to team nelson, you're right blame the rules of engagement more than anything.... I never could understand the reasoning behind them though.  it's always the system, never the commander of the battalion.  there is a real thick smokescreen that isn't penetrated by the lance corporal underground or even the news media in most cases.  for all the talk of a clean victory the politicians obviously don't want that... I'm all for not terrorizing foreigners and being a brute but keeping eyes on until shot or ambushed is how the patrols are conducted overthere.

[JASmith]

Do you understand the surge strategy? It's an EXIT strategy folks. Get a grip. McChrystal needs to stomp Helmand province hard enough to create a lull in the tempo. Politicos declare a decisive victory, we turn it over to ISAF, bring 'em home, then it falls to crap when the bad guys have caught their breath. It's a paper win; Obama claims a win, and our guys come home sooner. What we coulda done in Nam. Not a just ending or a just war; just an acceptable exit strategy that reduces losses and gives the appearance of control.

I apologize ahead of time for a lengthy note focusing on a sub theme of the thread:

You've made very many excellent points!

One clarification, however:  Spending two eighteen month tours in SEA as an AF forward air controller both before and after the signing the peace accords gave me a different perspective.  I had the distinct impression that Nixon did exactly what you describe as the current exit strategy.  He used the B-52's over the North to get their attention.  Went to the negotiating table to gain short term concessions that allowed us to claim an honorable withdrawal.  The South Vietnamese and the other two nations could possibly have held out, but congress effectively turned off the spigot and the inevitable happened.

In my view, we left Vietnam because our folks at home couldn't stomach what it takes to prevail.

Most of us don't realize that the kind of wars we fight today are no longer the same as the the Napoleonic Wars, the Civil War, WWI, and WWII, where the outcome is largely determined by the industrial capacity of the belligerents.  We Americans have largely perfected this sport.  The wars of today have largely gone from "industrial war" to "war among the people," however.

A way of describing this change is to use a phrase from 'Nam: "Winning the hearts and minds" as part of the means to winning the war.   War among the people makes this the objective, not a means.  Having this objective puts unusual constraints on soldiers who have been trained and equipped to prevail in high intensity combat.  It also partly (if only by a small amount) explains the screwy ROE that makes life so difficult.

There are lots of examples from Rome, the Czars, America (cowboys v. indians), Ireland, etc. that suggest that these are multi-decade parties.  They don't always go the way the occupying power would like either.  It took 30 years for the North Vietnamese to prevail against the French, the US, and the South Vietnamese.  It took the Czars about the same amount of time to prevail over the Cossacks as well for the communists to prevail over the Polish resistance following World War II.

[Squib]

and the arabian peninsula has been at war ever since mohammed got rid of the other religions there

we aren't going to change those people in heart or mind, we're going to stir up more stuff.  they will NOT stand and fight a conventional military unit, they'll use guerrila tactics.  sure a few guys might co-ordinate an ambush and take a few opportunistic shots at most but generally they just plant an ied and camp out a few houses down waiting for some foreigner to walk by and there it is- they made a dent in the operation and got away clean.

iraq had a bunch of trained and motivated guys to fight us, they were the republican guard- they're dead
the baath party had plenty of loyalists (probably still does) after saddam went down, and they would occassionally get together to use guerrila warfare on a specific target (small town like qusaybah) for awhile and move on once the town got cordoned and torn up looking for them.  lots of those guys are either dead or captured.  so now who is doing it?  it gets harder and harder to tell because every time they lose a leader that post might get filled again or the local insurgents might just get autonomy.  the government over there isn't particularly transparent either, and the factions aren't just arguing like we are, they're killing each other.  factor the geography too, iraq isn't a large nation so getting from the borders to any place in that nation isn't a big trip, and it's bordered by a lot of places that aren't friendly to our presence.  THEY WILL KEEP COMING.  we're losing good quality young men from the gene pool by getting them killed over there, for a cause that's not worth fighting anymore.  what objective are we going to achieve now?

[Squib]

maybe ten posts ago, ironglow has a link that will also explain why they think we're decadent and corrupt (along with a big nuisance- invading their homes)

it makes me sick and I've grown up seeing crap like it, take a look at it- have a trash can handy

[Oldshooter]

If Muslims seriously posed a threat to the United States, in North America, I would join TeamNelson (and maybe some of you other guys) on the front lines.  I have no problem with that. I admire bravery and self-sacrifice of soldiers who fight for peace and justice.

Despite all that has been said and done, you honestly are not sure that Muslims pose a threat to the United States, in North America. Although I may not have the capacity for recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others as some here. I would like to see things from your point of view but I cannot get my head that far up my behind! 

Now I hope you dont find that offensive, but it is on a little sign that I pull out of my desk, usually when  I am having a discussion with one of my children about some silly tact that they have taken in dealing with lifes complexities. And it sure seems to best fit my feelings about that remark.

[powderman]

OS. Well said and true. Islam is a fast growing cancer, a boil on the butt of the ENTIRE world, and should be treated as such. POWDERMAN. 

[P.A. Myers]

 Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
 support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.  JFK

[ironglow]

Squib;
  First off, thank you for your service. I do realize that each escalation of combat does alienate a certain section of the locals, but as I said in post# , I would opine that each example of decadence as shown in that link and pursued by much of our "pop culture" probably does more to enrage our enemies than 30 firefights. As cruel as they can be, the enemy at least has some respect for enemy troops...but nothing but contempt for such perverts.
  I should expect that either the administration provide the troop strength the commander in the field needs..or simply cut and run.
      The dithering he is doing now, reminds me of the following incident.  Three firefighters are trapped in a large warehouse, the fire chief calls dispatch;

   

    Chief: We have men trapped, I need two more hook & ladder units.

    Dispatcher; That may cut us short; I'll send you just one unit.

   Chief: One won't do, I need two, and I need them NOW!

   Dispatcher: Sorry; you only get one..

   Chief: Look, I've been a firefighter 37 years and a chief 12 of those years;
    I need 2 Hook & ladder units and I need them NOW!

   Dispatcher: Nope!  You will get just one unit...and by the way, you'll get it tomorrow..

   I see no way in which a "community organizer" (read rabble rouser) from Chicago can have more ability to assess the tactical & strategic problems faced in a war situation, than can the general in charge.
  Seems like we've been down that road before, with the Johnson administration & Vietnam.

[Cabin4]

I can't even begin to understand that some folks actually beleive that the US is hated so much around the world becasue of our "pop culture". I think when you invade a nation and start killing their people, that will pretty much determine just what those people think of an invading army and the country they came from. I know if we were invaded just what I would be thinking and it aint gonna have anything to do with TV shows and movie stars.

[powderman]

Cabin 4. Muslims don't hate us for pop culture, they hate us because we are not them. They are taught from birth to hate us and want us dead. Why is that so hard to understand??? Islam is a cancer, and should be treated as such. POWDERMAN. 

[Oldshooter]

OS...about this idealogical-religious war you're thinking alot about....do you really think you can fight and win an idealogical-religious war with weaponry, troops, and movements in the end...?

Hell, I dont know to tell you the truth Tm7, and yes it really sounds idealistic, don't it. But Frankly I really believe we are in a life and death struggle with folk that want to see us wiped from the face of the earth.
My Religious beliefs make me know that God would not be proud of me for these feelings and desires. But there is something in me that believes that a total annihilation of that "bunch" is necessary for our survival and for the future of this Country, although they are not our only enemy for sure!

These words, spoken  at the Dawn of D Day  give me reason to believe that we were in a Crusade then against evil forces set on our destruction as I believe we are now:

"Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force:  You are about to embark on the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months.  The eyes of the world are upon you.  Good Luck!  Let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God on this great and noble undertaking."

Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander.

It may be idealistic to think that we can prevail in a fight against Muslim aggression, but it may be naive to think that we need not worry and that they will appreciate a "live and let live" approach.

My concern is that I wont be the recipient of the results of a nonviolent mistake , but my children and theirs will.

I do not relish "war" and I do not "missunderestimate" the horror that it is. I do think that we are in one whether we like it or approve of it or not!

[Cabin4]

Cabin 4. Muslims don't hate us for pop culture, they hate us because we are not them. They are taught from birth to hate us and want us dead. Why is that so hard to understand??? Islam is a cancer, and should be treated as such. POWDERMAN.  

It's not hard for me to understand that at all. I completely agree 100%.I was only disputing IG's claims that its because of our sick pop culture.

So why are they taught to hate us from birth? Answer: Its because we interfere in their countries internal affairs, it’s because of our unyielding and double standard support for Israel, it's because we invade their countries and kill their people. It’s because of our involvement in the UN and the double standard so called “resolutions”. It's because we land our troops in a ME country and use it as a base operation to invade our ME countries. Do you understand this Powderman?

[Squib]

from what I've read about the formation of israel it was the culmination of zionist culture, in which the superpowers who both liked and disliked the jews decided to pit them against the muslims- in the heart of the muslim world.  and a great deal of the funding was from the Rothschild family (jewish super-money)

I'm pretty sure the situation over there is working as it was intended, and we really can't stop it.  I don't think the solution is to go and kill them all, nor is that anything less than despicable.  We should stop them from immigrating over here, stop all immigration really.  Our borders are porous and we aren't even requiring people to assimilate into our culture anymore.  People born in this country don't even assimilate and they can be white christians and still have nothing sentimental or cherished of our culture in their hearts.  Our accomodationist policies are to blame.  You're right for saying that islam spreads like cancer because it IS intended to do more than preach but dominate.  Keep them out and they can't do much (except Iran).  The US could just step out of the way of Israel and that would solve the problem- but Israel is there for a reason and that's to keep the muslim world in turmoil.

[Dee]

I will not even attempt to give a history lesson here concerning Israel and why it is where it is, and for what purpose it is back where it was. I would simply refer anyone "honestly interested" to a history book some 5,000 years old called the Holy Bible. Then the REAL REASON, Israel was put back where it actually originally was, will become imminently clear. All else is uneducated speculation. Israel is at the present in the process of a "reclamation" rather than a "harassment" program. An Arab on the other hand, is an Arab, and the real trespasser.

[ironglow]

  Dee;
  Agreed..everything since Ishmael was disinherited, is simply an ongoing process. Israel is re-establishing their deed and title. Ishmael already has 500 times as much territory surrounding Israel as is Israel itself. Ishmael squatted upon Israeli land for 1900 years..and what did he make of it? A dry, baked out slum, perhaps?
  The Israelis have been "home" for a generation and that land is again a  "land of milk and honey"..and that's prophecy at work !