Author Topic: Powder loads and weight (Read 1974 times)

pyrocroats · « **on:** November 25, 2009, 12:53:01 AM »

Ok so silly question but I sooner be safe then sorry.

is there a conversion (a safe one) if using Goex ffg BP and my max load is 200 grains (for a salute charge)
At the present time I am using a Lee Dipper 4.3 CC (62.3 grains according to Lee)
is there a direct conversion of grains to weight that I can use to be more accurate?
I am using 3 scoops (with lee dipper) and having no issues with firing (other then wanting to fire it more)

I was thinking of using a digital scale to measure it out but no idea what the right answer is to go from volume to weight.
Or should I forget weight and stick to the volume and the Lee dippers?

Artilleryman · « **Reply #1 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:01:46 AM »

If you have access to a scale measure the actual weight that the Lee dipper holds in BP. I used a Lee dipper for loading shotshells and after getting a scale found that the weight it held was more than what it was said to be. Make sure that you measure several times and take an average.

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:13:20 AM »

What is the bore diameter of your cannon.

Each different grade and brand of powder will have it's own different weight per volume. Not a lot different, but different. Humidity will also change the weight but you probably won't notice that unless you m ake really big charges.

The Lee Dippers I believe are calibrated in c.c. and in my experience are inconsistant and vary to much for reliable loading. Their best use is as a powder scoop to but put an approximate amout of powder on the scale and nothing more.

You need to weigh each charge to get it right.

Unless you are shooting a cannon under .75 inch you really should be using Fg and not FFg especialy with a load as large as you report.
FFG is a faster burning than Fg and will give a substantial presure increase for no additional increase in velocity. The pressure increase from Cannon grade to FG is 40% for example.

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #3 on:** November 25, 2009, 06:39:13 AM »

The DigiWeigh digital scale I have measures in: carats, grains, grams, and ounces. I got it on eBay for under $20, shipping included.

Are you shooting a mortar?

pyrocroats · « **Reply #4 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:00:13 PM »

nope it is not a mortar.
It is a 0.75 barrel and I am using ffg trying to keep it under 200 grains of powder it is goex powder I use but as above stated the lee dippers should be used as scoops.
The reason for the 200 grains is for a salute charge and Dom did an excellent job of making wall thickness nice and thick just for said reason.
But I still would like to know what is the formula or conversion from weight of goex ffg powder to grains or vis versa.
Any ideas?

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:09:09 PM »

There is no hard and fast formula for that conversion. The best you can do is measure a large amount of powder via a volumetric way and then measure that volume with a scale and do the math.

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:15:00 PM »

On my digital scale 200 grains of FFG weighs .46 ounce.

GGaskill · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:16:16 PM »

One ounce is 437.5 grains.

subdjoe · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2009, 02:21:54 PM »

Do you really get that much more bang with 200 grains over 100 grains? Or are you pushing a lot of unburned and burning powder out the tube?

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:22:46 PM »

I agree, 100 grains and a card wad should ring your ears!!!

pyrocroats · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:05:31 PM »

ok stupid question but what is a card wad?
I have been using news paper and kind of like the smoke and fire

But if I can get away with a "Card wad" and 100 grains of powder, even better.

Any links to this card wad or what do I use or make this out of?

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:14:44 PM »

I'll caution you about newspaper - it smolders. That means, as it come out you'll have tiny bits of smoldering paper that will burn anything it lands on. When I first started getting into blackpowder, I was shooting cannon near a tent, and ran out of my normal blank wadding and substituted newspaper at the suggestion of a more experienced shooter. The tent now has a sunroof, and I've never taken advise from that shooter again. Using napkins or rice paper would be much better if paper is to be used.

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:17:47 PM »

Quote from: pyrocroats on November 25, 2009, 07:05:31 PM

ok stupid question but what is a card wad?
I have been using news paper and kind of like the smoke and fire

But if I can get away with a "Card wad" and 100 grains of powder, even better.

Any links to this card wad or what do I use or make this out of?

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(yqc12555rg51gej2yo0srq55))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=37&styleID=118

subdjoe · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:18:51 PM »

That .75 bore is darned close to 12 ga. You might try some over shot cards. Although, if you are making foil cartridges, I don't think you will need any wad at all.

OK< I just checked that chart - 11 ga.

pyrocroats · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:43:22 PM »

ok so normal shotgun wads for a 11 gauge will work?
or use a 10 gauge over sized?
and... what thickness? 0.025 ?
and yes I agree the paper does come out nice and hot LOL
BTW how do you like the sun roof?
(sorry bad humor)

does the tinfoil not also coat the barrel on ingnition?
and make it dirty and have to be scraped more often?
Sorry never tried tin foil powder loads ...yet

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:45:45 PM »

Not my tent...

The worst thing that happens with foil is that the back part of it may get stuck in the breech, and you'll have to worm it out. Also, keep in mind, anything in front of the powder becomes a projectile when it's fired, including the foil. This may not be a big deal depending on where you're shooting, and I'm not going to criticise anyone for using it, because there are some definite positives to it, and many shooters have been using it for longer than I've been alive, but something to be aware of.

pyrocroats · « **Reply #16 on:** November 25, 2009, 11:40:42 PM »

hmmm good point on the foil, I have tried tissue paper instead of news paper and found not much of a difference in firing a salute charge.
Which brings me to another question:

How much paper/tissue should I be using and how packed should it be against the powder?
I would think the patch would be just about the same?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2009, 12:56:09 AM »

Minimal paper is a good rule of thumb.

You have the capability with a lot of paper to blow it up. (Experience talking here.)

The purpose of the card or paper is just to provide a LITTLE resistance to build up pressure to get a good sound.

Salute charges are typically twice a FULL charge behind a ball. Lots of packing will do too much.

RocklockI · « **Reply #18 on:** November 26, 2009, 05:28:23 AM »

How about sand wrapped in the foil ? it acually 'looks' like a ball going in . then it will be blasted and the sand will not travel very far . foil either .

Gary

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #19 on:** November 26, 2009, 06:27:52 AM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 26, 2009, 05:28:23 AM

How about sand wrapped in the foil ? it acually 'looks' like a ball going in . then it will be blasted and the sand will not travel very far . foil either .

Gary

Hmmmm. Sand Blasting !

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** November 26, 2009, 07:36:50 AM »

I wouldn't put sand in my bore! And it would come out like dust shot ins shotgun shell.

You don't need it!

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** November 26, 2009, 08:39:30 AM »

If you load an inert filler in front of the powder charge, the powder will see it as inertia just like a real shot, so you need to back off on the charge weight to the same as you would use with a shot of the same weight as the filler. Flour is a good filler as its particles are extremely fine and will not individually carry significant kinetic energy.

The double charge weight for salutes is really a variation on the above theme. The second charge mass in front of the rear charge acts as resisting inertia for the rear charge, even though it burns. Burned or not, it still has mass, which increases the pressure and makes a louder report.

subdjoe · « **Reply #22 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:27:40 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on November 26, 2009, 08:39:30 AM

Flour is a good filler as its particles are extremely fine and will not individually carry significant kinetic energy.

Not to mention that the flour will burn in its own right once it gets slightly disbursed. Remember the Mr. Wizard experiment? (video is not Mr. Wizard, but the spirit is the same. I recall Mr. Wizards book involving a candle, and the funnel in a large metal canister, and the flame/energetic combustion blowing the lid off).

[yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/s0sdvLYHua4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/s0sdvLYHua4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]

Wonder if that would add to the pressure?

dan610324 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:41:23 AM »

any organic material will burn if its dry enogh
lots of grain is used as fuel for heating here in sweden , oats is very cheap
there just isnt enough of saw dust

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** November 26, 2009, 11:55:28 AM »

Quote from: pyrocroats on November 25, 2009, 11:40:42 PM

hmmm good point on the foil, I have tried tissue paper instead of news paper and found not much of a difference in firing a salute charge.
Which brings me to another question:

How much paper/tissue should I be using and how packed should it be against the powder?
I would think the patch would be just about the same?

That's why you worm the bore to remove the powder bag/foil cartridge. But a bore as small as yours just use loose powder and card wad over the top.

After firing, wet swab, dry swab then load

pyrocroats · « **Reply #25 on:** November 26, 2009, 06:14:13 PM »

Yes I read the safety precautions on the cleaning after firing part and have been over doing it by waitting 10 min. before re-firing but better safe then sorry.

I am going to try the shotgun patches in 0.025 and see what happens.

Victor3 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 26, 2009, 07:41:49 PM »

In a small-bore cannon, a lightly crumpled ball of aluminum foil tamped on top of the charge is going to weigh about the same as an average card wad. Easy to make and load, holds the charge firmly, doesn't go far upon firing and doesn't burn.

Aluminum foil is all I've ever used for blanks, and it's as safe as anything else (in small amounts) IMO. A lot more convenient too.

Rickk · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2009, 10:24:21 AM »

Card wads can be briefly soaked in a saturated solution of Baking soda in water and allowed to dry.

The baking soda is a fire retardant and will reduce the chance of light your wife's garden on fire, not that I would admit to having any first hand knowledge of such an event, nor does the only witness who may have been 5 years old at the time and who may have been paid off in new Lego toys so as to not remember anything.

Don't be temped to use damp paper, as it can pack very tightly and become a bore obstruction.

The smaller (1 inch and under) bores do seem to want a bit of resistance in front of the charge to speak loudly. However, only a quality, overbuilt piece can be used safely with any significant amount of wadding. Who made your barrel? It is hard to give recommended load info without first hand experience with the same particular barrel. Some are really overbuilt and indestructible. Others are downright dangerous with even loads that many would consider moderate.

If you don't feel motivated to punch out your own wads, http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ is a good source of shotgun sized wads. Dixie gun works would be another source.

Rick

RocklockI · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:51:12 AM »

Quote from: Double D on November 26, 2009, 07:36:50 AM

I wouldn't put sand in my bore! And it would come out like dust shot ins shotgun shell.

You don't need it!

DD ,I said inside the foil , did it sound to you as if I was saying that to put sand in contact with the bore .

Maybe I wasnt clear ?

You see the idea is to ............yep , you were right

just to blow and scrub hot blasting sand to pit your bore and nothing more .

I seen you shoot DD !

wasn't pretty , it was loud ! , Sand in the bore would be a good excuse for you .

I'm just saying . Tee Hee Harr Har

I believe you misinterpeted / misunderstood or misrepresented what it was I said . Your call
Gary

Double D · « **Reply #29 on:** November 27, 2009, 12:58:44 PM »

Gary as soon as you fire the sand loaded cartridge the sand will be blasted out of the foil and scour your bore.

Yes you saw me shoot once, but not the many times I have shot in the past.

And, I clearly understand that you misunderstood what you were talking about...