Author Topic: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?  (Read 4945 times)

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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 08:07:14 AM »

OK Guys,

   I  know that you all love Handi's, but I think that with new ones in the larger calibers going for $260 plus tax, they are simply not a bargain anymore. They are WAY out of line.

   Folks have said, yea, but for a "high quality" rifle, that's is a good price.

   High quality???  Hmmmm. Really?

   From what I have read on these very boards, the majority of them won't shoot at all if you hold (or rest) the forestock in front of the front lug screw when you shoot.  Is that high quality?  None of my cheapest bolt guns have that problem.

  They come with a non-walnut stock that is downright UGLY in both appearance and dimensions.  It screams "cheap."

  Lots of them won't shoot worth a dang no matter what you do to them.

  Most of the messages on this board are how to fix them up, so they will shoot like a decent rifle.   And lots of them are how to fix the mechanisms so they will function reliably.  And also, how to send them back to NEF to get them fixed.

   So, no, for my book, they are no longer a bargain if someone wants a new rifle that is high quality and will shoot great right out of the box.

  Now, on the other hand, if you like "projects" and "kits" and "hobbies" and "challenges", then the current prices are probably not too far out of line.   As one poster noted, "half the fun is getting them to shoot."
   
  But, I"m not one of those people. When I buy a new rifle, I'm not interested in buying a problem.  If I buy a beat up used rifle, yes; but not a new one.

  Just my opinions.

Mannyrock

Offline Swampman

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 08:19:23 AM »
A better comparison would be the Handi vs. the Ruger #3, #1, a Dakota, or a Sharps.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline ChrisK

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 10:14:55 AM »
I paid $180 for mine it is in a .223. I saw some prices and thought that they are getting way to high. I bought my step son a pardner in 20 gauge 10 years ago for $80. They seemed to stay at a low price for a long time. I got mine before they really started to jack up the prices. At the time I thought that I paid a lot for mine but it does shoot pretty good out to 300 yards. I would like to see them be as strong as a TC and be able to buy barrels as easy you can a TC.
Chris Kiefner

Offline buckslayer

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 10:32:54 AM »
The Buds prices are great, but ya gotta remember the 20-50$ FFL transfer.  Mine is 50$ for current production guns such as the handi.  A 3006 or 270 from Buds is 230.00-260.00+FFL transfer, you then have a 260-300 dollar gun. 

Now as for comparing the Handi to a Sharps, Ruger, or Dakota, that is ridiculous.  They are a totally different design.  It would be like comparing a Neon to a F150. 

A better comparison would be a gun like the Encore (yes its been done a million times).  While it has alot of the same Handi problems, is somewhat over priced,  and is ugly as sin from the factory, atleast you have TONS of aftermarket support and over the counter barrels in MANY magnum calibers.
I've got to many but never enough!!!! :eek:

Offline Swampman

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 11:10:15 AM »
The Handi rifle is stronger (and much better looking)than a T/C and has a lot less problems.  The Handi is more accurate than the Ruger #1, #3, Dakota, and the T/C.  If you guys would stick with rimmed cartridges your problems would go away.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline buckslayer

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2009, 11:21:13 AM »
The Handi is NOT stronger than a TC or Ruger.  Show me a Handi that can Handle the .300 mags, .375 mag, .416 and .458.  The TC has no more, and probably less problems than an H&R, and like I said, TONS of aftermarket support.  And until H&R stops selling rimless cartridge barells, dont use the "stick to rimmed" argument.  Until then, it is far from valid.  Besides, there are alot more accurate rimless Handis out there than inaccurate. 
I've got to many but never enough!!!! :eek:

Offline buckslayer

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2009, 11:22:48 AM »
accidentally hit the wrong button  ::) ::)
I've got to many but never enough!!!! :eek:

Offline Spanky

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2009, 11:25:08 AM »
I agree with Swampy.



Spanky

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 11:38:58 AM »
Just to set the record straight, when making H&R comparisons to TC, the SB2 frame is stronger than a G2 Contender, but not as strong as the Encore. As far as other comparisons, the H&R got the nod in the Ultra vs Dakota accuracy comparison, the Ultra was $250 then, dunno how much the Dakota is now, pretty much a moot issue as far as I'm concerned tho, then and now.  I'm currently working on another custom H&R, rimless too!!  ;D H&R's are still where my money is regardless, no bolt guns for me.   ;)

Tim

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Offline buckslayer

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 11:54:51 AM »
I have NOTHING bad to say about the H&R/NEFs I have and had.  I had a .50 Huntsman that would shoot 3/4" groups at 75 yards, a .280 that would shoot .5" at 50 yards.  My first gun and my current favorite is a .410 Pardner I got when I was around 12, the next Christmas I got a 12 ga. Pardner, that has killed deer, and about 4 years ago I got a .17 HMR that will shoot the necks off empty cases at 50 yards, and can scare a squirrel a whooooolllllleeee lot further, and I had a 20 ga. USH that would shoot thos big ol HV Barnes X slugs into little tiny clusters at 100 yard.  I have had nothing but fun with these guns.  The .410 has had hundreds of rounds through it, the 12 ga not so many, but most of em were heavy duck, turkey, and buckshot loads, and its tight as ever.  I have an empty SB-2 rifle frame that I am trying to decide what barrel to get for it.  probably a 45/70 or 30/30, not because I am afraid of rimless cartridges, but cuz I want a rifle in a classic chambering ;)  The Encore is waaaayyy over rated IMO, although I am looking into a G2 Contender.  These guns, for me, will never compete with H&R/NEF for the most part.  You get a whole lot more for a whole lot less in the BREAK OPEN single shot market when you buy a H&R.  But when someone who is not familiar with the ways of these little guns buys one because they want an out-of the-box shooter in a standard deer caliber or beginner friendly caliber, I think they would be better suited with a similar priced bolt gun like the Savage/Stevens 200/110, IMO.  That was my point for this thread, I guess I should have made my point clearer in the begining.  Anyhew, I never meant for this to become a bash party or a comparison thread.  Sorry it was taken that way.
Any hints on what your working on Quick? ;) ;D  Good luck with it!
I've got to many but never enough!!!! :eek:

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2009, 12:23:58 PM »
IAny hints on what your working on Quick? ;) ;D  Good luck with it!

I just posted about it, thanks.  ;)

Tim
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2009, 12:59:08 PM »
there are alot more accurate rimless Handis out there than inaccurate.

Failure to fire is the problem.  Accuracy has never been an issue.  The Handi will handle Ruger level loads.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spanky

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2009, 01:09:00 PM »
there are alot more accurate rimless Handis out there than inaccurate.

Failure to fire is the problem.  Accuracy has never been an issue.  The Handi will handle Ruger level loads.

You don't see too many FTF problems with the rimmed rounds. ;)
I'm with you on this one Swampy.
All of my Handi's are rimmed rounds. ;D


Spanky

Offline Big Blue

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2009, 03:45:26 PM »
I have bolts, levers and Handi rifles. Love 'em all! The Handi rifles may take a bit of tinkering, but for anyone that loves to tinker with guns they are made to order. Believe me entry level bolt guns like the Savage 200 also have their problems. The Handi is still less than half the price of any of the other rifles I have.
Don

Offline bajabill

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2009, 08:02:17 AM »
What I like about the Savage is the ability to easily change barrels, and therefore have a huge selection of chamberings.  Not as quickly and easily as a HR, but certainly reasonable to shoot one one day, and change that night to be ready for something different the next time at the range.  And, there is almost as large a open market for used barrels for the savage as there is for the HR.

Offline Swift One

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2009, 09:17:04 AM »
Quote
The Handi is NOT stronger than a TC or Ruger.  Show me a Handi that can Handle the .300 mags, .375 mag, .416 and .458.  The TC has no more, and probably less problems than an H&R, and like I said, TONS of aftermarket support.  And until H&R stops selling rimless cartridge barells, dont use the "stick to rimmed" argument.  Until then, it is far from valid.  Besides, there are alot more accurate rimless Handis out there than inaccurate. 

Well Put!!  I have a handi in 223 standard barrel (What a bear it was to find an accurate load for), have had an Encore, and have a Stevens 200 in 7mm-08.  And yes, the Handi Rifle does have the overall cheapest prices and yes, you can get them to shoot.  However, rust seems to love the handi Rifle barrel finishes far more than the Encore and Stevens/ Savage.  It does take quite a bit of tweaking with some Handis to get the to shoot and my Friend had a 243 handi that would not shoot with any reload or gun tweaking trick that i have learned on this sight. 

I have a buddy that got a Rem 770 in .270.  With the scope the whole deal came to $360.  I adjusted the trigger to 3lbs and put a cheek piece on his stock.  With factory federal ammo in 130gr, he was shooting 3/4" groups at 100yds and was shooting just under 2" groups at 300yds- ringing steel all day long.

My Stevens 7mm-08 was shooitng 3/4-1/2" groups with factory ammo before I did any mods to the gun.  I had paid $400 for the gun.

I have a Handi and will buy another caliber rifle barrel for it one day- just because I have a Handi and I know some gunsmithing to make it shoot right along with reloading skill.  i would not spend the money on a new one these days for the price.  Encore or Bolt gun (Savage) is what I tell my friends that are planning on buying a new rifles.

If a person likes tinkering with rifles and has the knowledge to do so, a handi is OK IMO.  But for the shooter hunter that does not wish to do any gunsmithing or reloading on there weapons, i would not recommend the Handi- especially for the new higher prices that they are being sold at.
It's all a hot mess...........

Offline Swampman

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2009, 11:45:05 AM »
The rimmed cartridges don't require any tinkering or reloading skill.  Rimless rounds belong in bolt actions & autoloaders.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline moorepower

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2009, 01:25:15 PM »
The Handi will NOT take #1 loads very long before beating out the under lug. They are a neat concept and I have one of each, center fire, rim fire and muzzle loader, but other than the muzzle loader, they don't stack up to my bolt action Stevens center fire or Savage rim fire. I would like the Handi rifles alot better if they would take off 6 of so oz. of the frame and had real interchangeable barrels with a gun sized under lug and a larger pin. By real interchange, I mean machine to the tolerance that they will fit as a drop in like the TC and KP1. I also HATE the profile of the hammer. You should not have to mod in order to use medium mounts.

Offline Tallwalker

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2009, 01:59:05 PM »
Well, we can always vote with our wallets. Sometimes they speak much louder than words. Buy the models you think are priced right, and don't buy the ones that aren't. Having worked in the firearms industry for many years, I can also say that letting the company know what affects your buying decision will get their attention. It may not change much until we all start doing it though. A simple note to the company saying that this feature, or the lack of that feature, or the price will affect your buying decision will do it.....  especially if others do it too. Ruger didn't shut Mini-14 production down for a year while they retooled the gun because folks were happy with the old gun's accuracy.......

Offline Swampman

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2009, 02:07:02 PM »
And the new Mini is no better than the old one.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline ham7777

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2009, 04:24:51 PM »
Just bought a 158 .22 Hornet with 6X Jap. scope paid 247 which included shipping. It was on Gunbroker and I was the only person to bid on it,I feel that was a fair price for it. The scope seems nice and clear,hope to get it soon to shoot before the weather gets too bad. Will post how it shot .  Tom Ham7777   ;D ;D
Highpower Rifle Sharpshooter Class NRA Endowment Member Army 68-71 RVN 1969 117 AHC Warlords/135 AHC EMU Get the Bloody Job Done/ Me and the Aussies at BearCat RVN 1969

.22 Hornet,.223,.243,.308,38-55(3)(2),44mag.,.45Colt,45-70(20+) .20ga.,(3)16ga.,Huntmans .50cal. Huntman's .58cal. 20 ga. Green Wing,12ga Trap,30-30 AI,35 Remington.12ga. Turkey.22-250 Rem,30-30Win.280 Rem, 7mm08Rem,.30Ebbs,.410/45Colt,.410,30-06,.45 Huntsman,12GA. Huntsman,.44mag Shirkari 45-70 Shirkari (2) 22-250Rem. 25-06 .270 .17Rem Fireball (stub)  7X57AI. 500S&W mag. 450 Marlin mag. 2 H&R 45-70 Trap Doors 2 H&R 48 16ga.

Offline ham7777

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2009, 04:29:10 PM »
Did something wrong,will try adding 2 more pics.  ???  Tom
I see what I did wrong :-[
Highpower Rifle Sharpshooter Class NRA Endowment Member Army 68-71 RVN 1969 117 AHC Warlords/135 AHC EMU Get the Bloody Job Done/ Me and the Aussies at BearCat RVN 1969

.22 Hornet,.223,.243,.308,38-55(3)(2),44mag.,.45Colt,45-70(20+) .20ga.,(3)16ga.,Huntmans .50cal. Huntman's .58cal. 20 ga. Green Wing,12ga Trap,30-30 AI,35 Remington.12ga. Turkey.22-250 Rem,30-30Win.280 Rem, 7mm08Rem,.30Ebbs,.410/45Colt,.410,30-06,.45 Huntsman,12GA. Huntsman,.44mag Shirkari 45-70 Shirkari (2) 22-250Rem. 25-06 .270 .17Rem Fireball (stub)  7X57AI. 500S&W mag. 450 Marlin mag. 2 H&R 45-70 Trap Doors 2 H&R 48 16ga.

Offline manatee1947

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2009, 05:14:18 PM »
Just like everything else, if you build them they will come. I bought into the Handi 's for the same reason as Swampman, for straight walled cases. Shooting lubed cast bullets through magazines is messy, and since I an depending on weight and diameter for performance, not speed, the cast do quite well. I put my equipment away in the early 90's because ammo was so cheap I could not afford to cast anymore. Now that the ammo shortage is full blown , especially with all the "anti-lead " movement rising, I dug out my equipment and am back in production. Shooting th BC is just plain fun, and with factory ammo running $1.50 plus per round, and I can load my own for about 18 cents, that makes a bunch of difference. I LOVED my little 17HMR Savage until it it hit nearly 30 cents, now I can shoot a 38 SP subsonic from a handi in the backyard and not wake the wife for about a dime. I will buy another handi if it is reasonable, but at $300 per, it is no longer reasonable, especially since the barrels cannot be bought from the factory without all the hassle. If they would just ship the barrels for $100 period, then the $300 might be reasonable. I just saw a Mossberg SS1, dirty, in a LGS for $265. If it had not been in a 270win, I would have snapped it up. Personally, I wish that the handi's were offered in more of the low pressure rounds on the SB1 frame, dress it up a bit, do the 25/20, 32/20, 38/40, 44/40 thing. I would love to have a 32/20 handi for $200 on an SB1, a 300 win mag for $350 is totally useless to me. But as long as the rage continues the price will rise. It reminds me of some of the girls at work who collect dolls or antiques. I could be an antique, but instead, I am just old. 
remember the starfish

Offline Squib

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2009, 09:18:43 PM »
manatee1947, hey handi's are only 198 or 199 dealer cost here, I know because after paying that, shipping and tax I got one for $230... granted you have to know a dealer that owes you a favor or something to get it at dealer cost but my point is that the guns aren't really that expensive, the people selling them know that people hurting for cash will pay up to $400 for a breach-action rifle if they can't buy a $7-800 bolt gun... it's the store owners being sheisters.  You gotta shop around, one shop in town only wanted 270 out the door so they'd have only been making 40ish profit on me (I buy new guns through my source not the dealers, but I still check the prices on new guns through the dealers to tell who's honest, because I do buy used guns from shops still, and loading supplies).  I swear the dealer cost is still cheap, I just got my handi yesterday!

Offline mike@nds

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2009, 12:42:21 AM »
I know a little bit about firearms manufacturing  ;), and when I add up my best guesses as to what their costs are for:

barrel blanks
investment cast parts
MIM parts
turned parts
roll pins
screws
stock bolts
wood and wood finishing
injection molded stocks
recoil pads
iron sights
scope rails

machining
heat treating
black oxide
hard chrome

etc, etc......

They are not making much of a margin on these guns.

They are making up for that with pure volume.



Oh yeah, add on top of that the Federal Excise Tax of 11% for complete firearms.

I'm amazed that they can even keep this "utility grade" firearm in their product line.

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Offline moorepower

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2009, 12:49:12 PM »
Hopefully we will see them, but I would pay a little more for a little bit better quality, such as truly interchangeable barrels. It sounds like the button rifled barrel will be a step in that direction, and hopefully a new hammer profile.

Offline manatee1947

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2009, 02:13:51 PM »
The markup is not all that high I know, but it is still worthwhile. I usually go to a local guy here who orders anything for his cost plus 10% and shipping and tax. PREPAID. He has no advertising, no storage, has nothing in stock to insure, if it comes in it goes out the same day. This is not his main business or only business. This is not like Nike shoes where they make them for $2 a pair and sell them for $200.Or like potato chips where they pay more for the bag than the farmer gets for the potatoes. I saw the list the gentleman put on here, I would like to see the prices.
remember the starfish

Offline Squib

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2009, 08:01:58 PM »
it's good to live in missouri, towns not big enought o even have a wal-mart or major gas station still have gun stores!!!!

Offline kng

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2009, 02:49:34 PM »
I think that ALL gun prices are going up, not just H&R.  Of course, 10 years ago, a Handi was $179 anywhere. 

It is getting hard to give close to $300 for a single shot, when you can buy a descent bolt action for $250.  But I wouldn't have ten H&R/NEFs if I didn't prefer them.

Having said that, I just bought a 45 Buffalo Classic for $264 out the door at my local gun shop.  He's had it about 2 years and when he first got it the price was $399. 

Thanks,
-Kyle
H&R/NEF:  .243, .308, .270, .357, .357 Talo, 45 BC Carbine, 45-70 Talo, .50 cal, .22/20 Versa, .22 Sportster
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: Is H&R/NEF prices getting a little outta control?
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2009, 04:30:52 PM »
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Having said that, I just bought a 45 Buffalo Classic for $264 out the door at my local gun shop.  He's had it about 2 years and when he first got it the price was $399. 

So it looks like the price is out of hand.  You can only sell for what someone will pay, they want $399.00 and people will only pay $264.00.  They won't sell many at $399.00 at that rate.  Bigger problem for them is what the price of a comparable rifle is, only comparable one now days is a Rossi.  They go for atleast $100.00 less in any of the forms, that is a lot of money when you are talking about a $250.00 rifle.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.