Author Topic: .223 Performance on Deer (Read 20119 times)

jmayton · « **Reply #30 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:55:26 PM »

I've heard that about Iowa. Ya'll grow some big deer up there, too.

no guns here · « **Reply #31 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:42:28 AM »

Quote from: jmayton on December 10, 2009, 04:22:30 AM

ngh, I agree. The laws of physics are pretty hard to argue with and more mass transfers more energy at a given velocity and surface area than less mass. But what surprised me was that the little 55 expanded out to nearly .45 diameter. Now ever though it is lower mass, it larger cross section will transfer more energy than say a 220gr .338 that never expanded. Since the mass isn't spread out over a larger surface area, all you get out the greater mass is more penetration. Now taken the same performance out of a larger caliber bullet, the larger one would do better. So better to hit them with a small, expanding bullet than a larger bullet that doesn't expand.

How's that for armchair physics? Again, I'll say that the .223 is not my go-to deer caliber, but what what I had with me this year.

Okay... UNLESS that little expanding bullet hits and cracks a large bone and stops or maybe is deflected along a wounding path not a killing path. Using those same suppositions, it is MUCH more likely that a bullet which is more than twice that weight will break the one and continue on to finish the job. Much more likely to continue on a straight path deeper into the animal vice deflecting off of a rib, scapula or whatever. Much better to use a larger bullet that expands as well as penetrates. I know you said that it wasn't your cartridge of choice for deer. It's just one of my pet peeves. To me it's sort of like the argument about .45-70's being enough gun for Cape Buffalo... Use the right tool for the job. Can I roof a house with a framing hammer? Yep... might be easier with the right tool though.

NGH

reelhook · « **Reply #32 on:** December 11, 2009, 03:05:52 AM »

I believe that the sierra GK bullet in question is the #1365-I have killed several mule deer and antelope with this bullet out of a 22-250-If not pushed onver about 3600fps-this bullet will hold together. It is a supberb bullet for deer in a .22 cal centerfire

jmayton · « **Reply #33 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:07:46 AM »

ngh, you're right. That's why I said the greater mass will penetrate better and therefore will get through bone and tough tissue better. And with a animal larger than a whitetail, that would certainly be an issue with a 55gr. But for deer and hogs, I have yet to have one penetrate even when it hits bone.

josie wales · « **Reply #34 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:20:05 AM »

I don't use and have no experience with Sierra bullets. I can take it for granted they are a very good bullet. My .223 WSSM, I reload 64 grain Winchester Power Points. I do have a supply of 60 grain Nosler Partitions. The PP work very good on large Eastern Coyotes. You will have to do a little more sewing because its a through and through bullet. My 30-06 it's pretty much 180 grain Nosler Partitions.

Here is what Sierra says about .224 caliber use on deer:

.22 Bullets For Deer Hunting??
by Kevin Thomas

Q. Which of your .22 Caliber bullets do you recommend for deer? In my state .22 Caliber centerfires are now legal for big game use, and IÕd like to use my .22-250 for deer this year.

A. While it is undeniable that most .22 centerfires are capable of taking deer size game, we want to stress the fact that they are marginal even under the best of circumstances. Most .224" diameter bullets are designed for use on varmints, or are match bullets not intended to expand. If you absolutely must use a .22 centerfire, choose as heavy a bullet as your rifle will reliably stabilize. A thicker jacket, such as those designed for .22-250 or .220 Swift velocities will also help. Consequently, we would recommend something like a 55 grain spitzer or spitzer boattail, 60 grain hollow point, or 63 grain semi-pointed. Place your shots with extreme care, and don't take any questionable shots.

Again this is what Sierra states, they have spent a lot of money and done the reasearch to say this. Is taking a black rifle in the woods to hunt with that imporant to risk wounding and crippling game animals?

nomosendero · « **Reply #35 on:** December 12, 2009, 07:03:12 AM »

Quote from: josie wales on December 12, 2009, 04:20:05 AM

I don't use and have no experience with Sierra bullets. I can take it for granted they are a very good bullet. My .223 WSSM, I reload 64 grain Winchester Power Points. I do have a supply of 60 grain Nosler Partitions. The PP work very good on large Eastern Coyotes. You will have to do a little more sewing because its a through and through bullet. My 30-06 it's pretty much 180 grain Nosler Partitions.

   Here is what Sierra says about .224 caliber use on deer:

.22 Bullets For Deer Hunting??
by Kevin Thomas

Q. Which of your .22 Caliber bullets do you recommend for deer? In my state .22 Caliber centerfires are now legal for big game use, and IÕd like to use my .22-250 for deer this year.

A. While it is undeniable that most .22 centerfires are capable of taking deer size game, we want to stress the fact that they are marginal even under the best of circumstances. Most .224" diameter bullets are designed for use on varmints, or are match bullets not intended to expand. If you absolutely must use a .22 centerfire, choose as heavy a bullet as your rifle will reliably stabilize. A thicker jacket, such as those designed for .22-250 or .220 Swift velocities will also help. Consequently, we would recommend something like a 55 grain spitzer or spitzer boattail, 60 grain hollow point, or 63 grain semi-pointed. Place your shots with extreme care, and don't take any questionable shots.

   Again this is what Sierra states, they have spent a lot of money and done the reasearch to say this. Is taking a black rifle in the woods to hunt with that imporant to risk wounding and crippling game animals?

I don't know Kevin personally but I would bet that many of us on this forum have killed more Deer than him.

Does Sierra make the 60 grain Partition or the TSX? No, under the best of circumstances these bullets and others are not marginal, hogwash!! The following would be "the best of circumstances", a broadside shot on a Deer at 100 yds. or less, such an opportunity on a Deer with a 55 gr. or heavier or one of the premium bullets will result in a dead Deer because they have to breathe too!!Anyone who does not know this is just ignorant of this subject, Kevin included,I personally know of at least 150 Whitetails killed in this way & taking out the lungs will work every time & with the bullets mentioned will work whether a rib is hit first or not.

Now, saying that, I don't consider it a Deer round, rather a round that can be used for Deer if that's what you have & are disciplined to avoid shots that one can take with pure Deer rounds. If you don't have this restraint then you should not bowhunt either.I don't hunt Deer with a 22cal or 243 cal, because of not being best for angle shots & energy dropping off at long range, so I carry something to take care of all circumstances.

Before someone just dives into this forum, it is allways good to look at the first post & see the subject/purpose. jmayton appears to not be a novice at all & he says it is NOT his normal Deer rifle, nor did he advocate the gun or round to be an all-round Deer rifle. If that had occurred I would look at this thread in a different light, but that is not the case.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #36 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:14:21 AM »

Quote

A. While it is undeniable that most .22 centerfires are capable of taking deer size game, we want to stress the fact that they are marginal even under the best of circumstances. Most .224" diameter bullets are designed for use on varmints, or are match bullets not intended to expand. If you absolutely must use a .22 centerfire, choose as heavy a bullet as your rifle will reliably stabilize. A thicker jacket, such as those designed for .22-250 or .220 Swift velocities will also help. Consequently, we would recommend something like a 55 grain spitzer or spitzer boattail, 60 grain hollow point, or 63 grain semi-pointed. Place your shots with extreme care, and don't take any questionable shots.

The 55 grn Gameking is what?

On .223 for deer

In my opinion nobody who thinks that a 243 is fine for 300LB notheren deer species has any business whatsoever deriding someone for using a .223 on the Souths lil sub 150lb dog deer. The same goes for folks who think 270 or 30-30 is FINE for ELK.

SO IF WE ARE GONNA CONDEMN FOLKS for using X cartridge lets start with all those folks north of the mason dixon line shooting those HUGE northern deer with a puny little 6mm

Or better yet let's not argue against a deer that's not only dead but already been partway eaten.

nomosendero · « **Reply #37 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:43:15 AM »

Yes Krochus, my point exactly & again folks may want to look at the subject.

jmayton · « **Reply #38 on:** December 12, 2009, 10:38:48 AM »

I like this: From Sierra, "While it is undeniable that most .22 centerfires are capable of taking deer size game. . ." and "Consequently, we would recommend something like a 55gr spitzer or spitzer boattail." Sounds like if you're going to hunt deer with a Sierra .224 bullet, use a ProHunter SPT or GameKing SBT.

You know, it's interesting. I started using these bullets because they shot well in my .223 Handi rifle that I started using for hogs because I would occasionally butcher a hog for friends and bbq's and my 30-06 wouldn't leave a lot of hog, especially for the sub-100pounders that are good eating. I found that the same load works well in my M4 (though it could shoot much heavier bullets) and so I have one load for both rifles and will usually carry one of the two when I'm out for hogs or 'yotes. The bigger ones go occasionally, but it's usually me with the M4 and my wife with her .243. That being said, I know how much more damage a 150gr .30 cal launched near 3000fps does to an animal and it is significantly more than the little .223. But I've still lost deer with the 30-06 when I made a bad shot.

rickt300 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 13, 2009, 03:26:16 PM »

I like the 223, not too loud and very accurate. I used to use one on deer occasionally. I used many bullets at first starting with the 55 gr. Speer,Hornady and even used a couple of Ballistic Tips of the same weight, no problems and I got exit holes at least half the time. Now my favorite bullet is a Hornady 60 gr. HP. I get exit holes most of the time with this bullet plus I have a bunch of them. If I can see a deers ribs or the neck in front of the shoulder and need to shoot it with my 223 I won't hesitate. Seems odd but I seem to make quicker kills with my 223 than I ever did with my 30-30 rifles.

Preacherman · « **Reply #40 on:** December 18, 2009, 12:05:32 PM »

I took 2 deer this year with 55gr gameking 300+yds one thru the lungs ran about 50yds the other thru the shoulders DRT pass thru on both.My first with the 223 Im impressed a brush gun nope pasture feild you bet.
some people just cant shoot.My laundry room window gun is a 17HRM head only low noise no tracking.
Preacherman

alsaqr · « **Reply #41 on:** December 24, 2009, 02:11:05 AM »

It has been awhile since I killed a deer with a .223. However, I have killed a lot of wild hogs with the .223-some of them went over 300 pounds. A 150 pound wild hog can be much harder to kill that a deer of the same size. Some of my hogs were taken with the Remington 55 grain SP bullet. The vast majority were taken using the US Army M193 ball round fired from my CZ 527 or my Sako: Yep, that's right, the military ball round.

A hog hit low behind the shoulder quite often dies in its tracks after being hit with the bullet from the M193 ball round: very seldom does one go more than 50 yards after geing hit. If the bullet hits a rib, it punches a little hole in the rib, penetrates 5-7", yaws and breaks in two at the cannelure. The nose of the bullet flattens and the rear portion fragments; shredding the heart, lungs and sometimes the diaphragm. If the bullet does not hit a rib it penetrates 5-7", yaws and breaks up; shredding the heart, lungs and diaphragm.

I limit my behind the shoulder shots with the .223 to ranges of yards of 150 yards or less. When fired from a 20-24 inch barrel, the M193 ball bullet starts to lose its magic at about 175 yards.

rickt300 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 25, 2009, 03:38:41 PM »

I have used some of the 52 gr match HP's from Sierra on a couple of deer. They were surprisingly tough and I used them on a couple of deer from my old 22-250. I also used the M193 55 gr. FMJBT on a culling project and oddly this worked pretty good on solid shoulder hits. However these deer were infected with a disease and most barely weighed 60 pounds. The truth is that with good hits avoiding the shoulder many 224 bullets will kill deer effectivly, especially the smaller varieties of deer.

FredWT · « **Reply #43 on:** December 25, 2009, 04:22:47 PM »

Has anyone ever used the Speer 70 grain .224 soft point on deer?

rickt300 · « **Reply #44 on:** December 25, 2009, 04:37:55 PM »

I fooled with the 70 gr. Speer in my youth but it gave poor accuracy in my 223 so I never hunted with it. I did test it in clay and it did give more penetration than my favorite 60 grain bullet. I am not sure Speer still makes this bullet.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #45 on:** December 26, 2009, 08:54:37 AM »

Fred, I shot some prairie dogs with the 70 grain Speer and it was very soft. But a friend of my shot some Pa. whitetails with it in his ,220 Swift and it did ok according to him.. I was NOT there so cannot say. But he has killed many deer, and usually has accurate info...As for the 22 on big game debate, some where I had info. that the 64 grain WW bullet was developed by Win. for the 223 and use on deer... Also I think that may have been the intent with the Serria 65 grain. On Serria bullets weight is one thing, but they have told me that different jackets are put on different 22 cal. bullets. So wt. of the bullet alone is not a indicator of what the bullets intent is....Over the years we have used many .22 cali. bullets on deer size game, but the game was taken in areas where they were extremely plentyful, and is a shot was not taken today, there would be a dozen next week....There is NO WAY I would use a .22 cal. to hunt for a trophy deer or any similar size game... But in country such as the Llano area where deer are thick as flees, and shots can be picked they will work...How can they be condemed when people shoot deer with arrows?

?

NickSS · « **Reply #46 on:** January 06, 2010, 02:52:48 PM »

Well I live in a state that does not allow 22 caliber weapons of any sort for big game hunting. I believe the game rules require a minimum of 24 caliber with a 95 gr bullet and a retained energy at a 100 yards of 900 foot pounds or more. Personally I have shot deer dead as a door nail with cartridges that do not meet those requirements, however, I really think that even a 243 or 6mm rifle is only a 90% deer gun. They lack the penetration and power for some of the tougher angles you could be called upon to shoot game at. After many years of hunting I have finally settled on the 6.5X55 using 140 gr bullets as my medium game rifle. It has the power and penetration without the kick and it also can be had in lighter rifles as a result.

nomosendero · « **Reply #47 on:** January 06, 2010, 03:45:18 PM »

Quote from: NickSS on January 06, 2010, 02:52:48 PM

Well I live in a state that does not allow 22 caliber weapons of any sort for big game hunting. I believe the game rules require a minimum of 24 caliber with a 95 gr bullet and a retained energy at a 100 yards of 900 foot pounds or more. Personally I have shot deer dead as a door nail with cartridges that do not meet those requirements, however, I really think that even a 243 or 6mm rifle is only a 90% deer gun. They lack the penetration and power for some of the tougher angles you could be called upon to shoot game at. After many years of hunting I have finally settled on the 6.5X55 using 140 gr bullets as my medium game rifle. It has the power and penetration without the kick and it also can be had in lighter rifles as a result.

We all have opinions, but this thread was not to question whether or not to use a 223 for Deer.

Autorim · « **Reply #48 on:** January 06, 2010, 04:07:07 PM »

I have been following this thread closely as I have a Ruger No. 3 in .223 for my grandson. I have been using Nosler Partitions for many years in the .243, .257 Roberts, .270, 7mm-08 and 30-06. I have excellent accuracy with the 225 Partition in the .338, but have never taken game with it.

I just bought some 60 grain Nosler Partitions for the .223 and after reading these posts, I have to believe they will do the job. I am going to load up some and test them.

Ken

jmayton · « **Reply #49 on:** January 07, 2010, 03:49:56 AM »

Quote from: Wyo. Coyote Hunter on December 26, 2009, 08:54:37 AM

How can they be condemed when people shoot deer with arrows??

Nice assessment. I never thought of it that way.

sjf · « **Reply #50 on:** January 08, 2010, 05:13:33 AM »

The Sierra 55 SPBT is a pretty decent bullet for .223 and 22-250. It does seem to be tougher than most game king bullets I've used. I have used it and the 63 Sierra SMP extensively on deer, as well as a few people that I load for, 50+ kills, both whitetails and mule deer. Shoot them in the lungs with either and you have a dead deer. To this date not one deer has been lost that was shot with either of these bullets. Then again each deer shot was shot properly in the kill zone.

poncaguy · « **Reply #51 on:** January 10, 2010, 02:23:37 PM »

Oklahoma allows 223 on deer............I don't use it, but would if it were my only rifle.......

Screwbolts · « **Reply #52 on:** January 16, 2010, 04:05:53 AM »

Quote from: jmayton on November 29, 2009, 04:04:47 PM

My Colt M4 and I have teamed up for two deer so far this season. It's not my normal deer rifle, but was what I had with me when I stumbled upon the deer. The last one was a cull spike that I shot this past weekend.

I have shot several deer with my 223, In the past I liked the Hornady 55 gr. Sp for out my back door rifle. I do intend to harvest a deer or 2 next season with my cast 22-055 FN NOE mold Boolitz, driven at 2800 FPS.

What is a cull spike?

Are you saying that this young spike horn would have been a spike it's entire life?

Is there any proof to show that a first year/young spike horn will be a spike next year and for the rest of his life? Was this a 2 1/2 year old spike or a 3 1/2 or even a 1 1/2 year old spike?

How many have seen a 5 year old spike?

I haven't in NYS but maybe they aren't the same in other places.

jmayton · « **Reply #53 on:** January 16, 2010, 12:13:57 PM »

We have shot some old spikes around here. We have one that has nearly 8inch tall spikes wandering around. We think he's 5-6 years old. My brother-in law shot one that was probably 3-4 years old. Mine was probably 2. Sometimes I think they will branch, but they'll never grow into much. At some of the deer breeding facilities around here they have 1-year-olds that will go about 130 B&C. Culling out spikes takes less desirable (if you're wanting better antler production) genetics out of the population, that's why we call them culls. . . plus they taste good.

Dee · « **Reply #54 on:** January 16, 2010, 01:52:33 PM »

Well I tell ya what jmayton. I have killed some over 300 lb hogs (sows AND boars) with a 52 grain match hollow point loaded by Blackhills. One shot stoppers all. My avatar is knealing over one. A big boar shot with that bullet. He was laying down, and never got up.
I have read all the posts, got a lot of different opinions, but didn't learn a thing. A good shot with a 223 is usually as good on the same animal as a good shot with an 06, and vice versa. I've seen some poorly shot deer and hogs keep right on going with a hit from everything from 3006 to 4570.
A 223 is plenty of bullet for deer, the question is does the caliber have plenty of "shooter". In your rifle's case I would say that it does have. Keep shootin.

Spanky · « **Reply #55 on:** March 08, 2010, 12:23:07 PM »

The 223 is fine for deer if the shooter knows what he's doing. Use a good bullet, put it where it belongs and it's meat on the table. Simple as that.

Spanky

tmar04 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 12, 2010, 08:13:15 AM »

Jmayton, what kind of rifle were you using with the load of 20.9 gr of H4198 , pushing 55 gr gameking? wonder what kind of pressure you were generating? I have a .223 TC contender and max pressure is around 48,000. wonder if my gun would handle the load you were using?? what do yu think? thanks to all who w ant to chime in on this. I need info from all of you.

nomosendero · « **Reply #57 on:** March 12, 2010, 03:48:55 PM »

Quote from: Dee on January 16, 2010, 01:52:33 PM

Well I tell ya what jmayton. I have killed some over 300 lb hogs (sows AND boars) with a 52 grain match hollow point loaded by Blackhills. One shot stoppers all. My avatar is knealing over one. A big boar shot with that bullet. He was laying down, and never got up.
I have read all the posts, got a lot of different opinions, but didn't learn a thing. A good shot with a 223 is usually as good on the same animal as a good shot with an 06, and vice versa. I've seen some poorly shot deer and hogs keep right on going with a hit from everything from 3006 to 4570.
A 223 is plenty of bullet for deer, the question is does the caliber have plenty of "shooter". In your rifle's case I would say that it does have. Keep shootin.

Dee, I see you in the Avatar but I don't see the Hog!

Dee · « **Reply #58 on:** March 12, 2010, 04:05:39 PM »

I ate the hog, and now I am takin a nap.

I took my ole avatar off, and was goin to put a new one up, but cant remember how to do it. I ask Matt, and looked thru the info, but I didn't find anything to tell me how, and Matt ain't answering. So here I am with the squirrel. But the squirrel is kinda calm don't ya think.

nomosendero · « **Reply #59 on:** March 12, 2010, 04:46:56 PM »

Yes, I feel about like that at this point, it was a fast week.