.223 Performance on Deer

[Dee]

Don't get so worked up Dee because not everyone follows your ideas... As for my stand on trapping, I favor it... As for you ideas of shooting an animal and causing pain with out killing it, if you can live with it, it is nothing to me..

No body's worked up WCH. To get worked up, I would have to be concerned about your opinion on a subject you know nothing about. I like you, do not care what anyone thinks about my methods. They can like them or not. Your ideas are nothing to me. I just find it odd that your all about humane kills, and yet are for trapping. But then again, it's the difference between here and there. Your the one that gave the humane lecture of "havin enough gun"  for the poor little hog . I just gave my opinion of feral hogs.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Unlike s0me, I do know something about ethics and sportsmanship..I will let it go at that..cripple all the things you like...

[243dave]

I think we are a bit off topic.  A 223 with a well constructed bullet is enough for deer out to moderate ranges for deer.  ABOUT THE HOGS,  if I was paying for a hog hunt you wouldn't see me with my AR, a larger caliber would be chosen.  If I was a landowner and overrun with farm destroying hogs I would carry my AR with a good 20rd magazine loaded with stout bullets so I could empty on a litter if I run across them.  I would aim to kill them all but if one got away wounded I wouldn't lose any sleep.  A hog isn't the same as a deer.  I do understand WCH's point as I would rather not cripple any animal to escape and suffer but if I was a texas rancher over-run with pigs, I'd declare war and have little pity on the enemy.   

[jmayton]

Well said, 243dave.

[nomosendero]

I think we are a bit off topic.  A 223 with a well constructed bullet is enough for deer out to moderate ranges for deer.  ABOUT THE HOGS,  if I was paying for a hog hunt you wouldn't see me with my AR, a larger caliber would be chosen.  If I was a landowner and overrun with farm destroying hogs I would carry my AR with a good 20rd magazine loaded with stout bullets so I could empty on a litter if I run across them.  I would aim to kill them all but if one got away wounded I wouldn't lose any sleep.  A hog isn't the same as a deer.  I do understand WCH's point as I would rather not cripple any animal to escape and suffer but if I was a texas rancher over-run with pigs, I'd declare war and have little pity on the enemy.    

That's a very good response. The Hogs or Varmits if rampant in your area is another issue all together.

I did a long post on the subject of 223 for Deer a couple of years ago & I don't want to do another of those.
But plain & simple 3 things matter with this round in particular & other rounds in general though in differing degrees. If you consider these 3 things for the round on Deer they will all die & quick.
1. Bullet, game style bullets & not one of the Varmit only bullets & esp. those varmit bullets under 55 gr. I know of many killed with 55 & 60 grain bullets & no problems, actually me & my brothers took 20 or so with a 223 over the years, I know one guy that's taken over 50 & another who has taken over 225 with his 223. So all in all about 300 head & we compared notes a good deal, most were 55 gr. corelokts, many were 55 gr. Winchesters, some Nosler & Hornady.
2. Relatively close range as the bullet will have enough vel. for terminal damage in the heart/Lung area. We saw that out there at 150yds or so the terminal effect was not as good, so 150 yd. max for me & I like 100 yds better. With a 22-250 I would add 100yds or so.
3. Angle of the shot. Unless a tough bullet or a small Deer I would avoid shouder first, go for thre heart/Lung area, penetrating a rib has not been an issue with these bullets & big Bucks need air too!
I am not saying you can't get it done outside of these parameters, rather that it seals the deal.

If these 3 things are kept in mind it's Tenderloin time. That being said, it is a gun that will kill Deer but for me not a Deer gun. The reason I say that is that especially hunting the best Deer I can they have a tendency to be at odd angles, I might get a long range opportunity that I would turn down with a 223, I want a rifle that will do the trick for all situations.

That is not in conflict with those on this thread that have used the 223 successfully, most said the round can be used successfully. Below is Jmayton's first post & the subject. Those who don't think you can don't know.







 

   .223 Performance on Deer
« on: November 29, 2009, 10:04:47 PM » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic  

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My Colt M4 and I have teamed up for two deer so far this season.  It's not my normal deer rifle, but was what I had with me when I stumbled upon the deer.  The last one was a cull spike that I shot this past weekend.  The bullet entered it's left shoulder, cut the heart in half, and lodged itself underneath the opposite shoulder.  It is (or was) a 55gr Sierra GameKing SBT.  I've been shooting these for quite some time for hogs and they took several doe last year.  I don't always get or take the time to recover the bullets, but this one cooperated.  On the left is the 55gr GameKing and on the right is a 150gr GameKing that I load for my 30-06.  I am quite pleased with the performance of these bullets and how they significantly increase the capability of the smaller calibers.

 

  

[Lloyd Smale]

If a guy is worrying alot about animals suffering he wouldnt hunt period and surely wouldnt trap. About 10 percent of the animals ive shot in my life dropped dead on the spot. If youve hunted enough youve tracked wounded animals. Its part of the equation. Sure its ok to believe in using enough gun to make a clean kill but 2 inches of misplacement in a shot on a deer with a 300 mag can mean the differnce in a quick kill and a tracking job. Ill stand behind my belief that a 223 with a good bullet like a partition and a precisely placed shot will dump a deer just as fast as the same shot with a 243 or even an o6. Bullet placement and  bullet selection are critical but then the same statement goes for any gun. One thing i truely believe in is when the subject of hunting ethics come up most personal opinions are best kept to yourself. What is ethical for you and whats ethical for me are two differnt things and as long as a hunter is abiding by the law I have no right to question his ethics.

Unlike s0me, I do know something about ethics and sportsmanship..I will let it go at that..cripple all the things you like...

[223fan]

I think the 223 makes a fine deer hunting round.I've killed quite a few deer with 223's and have had no problems.I use 65gr. gamekings but I have used the 55gr.Remington soft points with good results.I have said it before deer are not that hard to kill,in WV we can use any center fire round in a rifle.I have used 22 hornets with good results also.

[PeterCartwright]

Seems like this is one of the discussions that warms up every deer season.  I read the entire thread with interest.  Thanks for all the contributions! 

I have only modest experience with this subject.  I put together a NEF light weight Handi-Rifle in .223 Remington (youth model) with a compact Weaver 4X scope a few years ago.  Our Wildlife Unlimited board sponsors kids in Michigan's Youth Hunt weekend (just completed).  Some years we have kids who are especially sensitive to recoil.  Anyway, this little rifle (and it's really TINY) sports a 20" barrel with a 9" twist rate.  I loaded up 53 gr. Barnes TSX bullets and sighted the Mattel looking rifle in.  To date, none of our kids has used the gun to take a deer.  However, I took it to my blind two years ago.  I had the luxury of picking my shot (broadside at 50 yards).  It won't surprise those who have shot deer through the boiler room with this cartridge to hear that the average sized doe I took went nowhere.  Internal damage was very impressive.  However, the bullet just broke through the hide on the far side.  Had the deer taken off, there certainly wouldn't have been a blood trail.

I'd like to poke another deer or two to see what happens-perhaps with the 60 gr. Nosler Partitions I loaded using my AR.  I've decided that while the .223 Remington isn't a cartridge for jump shooting deer, it's plenty of rifle for broadside shots at modest ranges.  That's not much of an issue for me because I generally follow that rule no matter what I'm shooting.

PC

[nomosendero]

Thought you might enjoy this:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/Ammo/Rifle/Bullethitsbone.html

[Dee]

Thanks nomosendero that was supportive of what has been obvious in my experience IN THE FIELD. In my old avatar I was on one knee over a big black boar that was real close to 400 lbs. I am holding the rifle I used, and it was my M4, and I shot him ONCE with a Blackhills 52 grain match hollow point. He didn't even kick.  Keep killin them big hogs with that AR jmayton, and I will keep killin'em with mine. We still need to get together and do a hunt.

[JWP58]

Thought you might enjoy this:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/Ammo/Rifle/Bullethitsbone.html

Exactly.

[emsemt911]

I have used a .223 with Nolser Partitions with good sucess.  I have to admit that I do not use it for whitetail or larger animals anymore.  I  feel tht they are better rounds out there.  I use my .223 for varmints and predator hunting

[Blackwell bikes]

Thanks nomosendero that was supportive of what has been obvious in my experience IN THE FIELD. In my old avatar I was on one knee over a big black boar that was real close to 400 lbs. I am holding the rifle I used, and it was my M4, and I shot him ONCE with a Blackhills 52 grain match hollow point. He didn't even kick.  Keep killin them big hogs with that AR jmayton, and I will keep killin'em with mine. We still need to get together and do a hunt.

I took my first deer with one of those black hills 55'ers, as to performance on game in short it kills them.

[semperfi1970]

Not to piss folks off by responding to an old thread, but. Anything bigger than a .25 for deer size game is just plain overkill. I would bet that my 220 swift with a 55 grain varmint bullet will drop a whitetail faster than any .30 plus cal out there. If one wants a nice wound channel a expanding soft point is great in a larger caliber, if one wants to create a jelly like body cavity were there is little to no vitels left in tact use a varmint bullet at over 4,000fps. You can have all of the muzzle energy in the world but if the intended target can not absorb it then its a mute point. I have shot deer with a .308 inside of 200 yards with a 150 grain soft point hunting bullet and had pass through and a fair track of the animal. Using the same .308 with a not reccomended for hunting thin jacket super soft lead hollow point 168 grain SMK I have never had a deer even take a step forward. My trusty old 270 with a well placed shot still requires some tracking of game more so than not. Are we trying to kill the animal or just punch a hole through it? With a lightly constructed bullet ALL energy is transfured to the intended target not just some. I get a kick out of penetration tests were folks shoot water jugs all lined up in a row and are amazed that there bullet held together after 7 jugs and had a good mushroom. I like it when the first jug is shreaded and there is little to no damage to the second, thats what I call energy transfer. A deer body cavity is about 14" thick why do poeple want to penetrate 5 times that?  Would I shoot something larger than a whitetail with a varm bullet, no I would not. A whitetail is not what I would concider large game and they are thin skined. Why folks think they need a moose gun to shoot deer size game is beyond me, I guess they like tracking animals with the hope of recovery. Me ,I like seing them drop in the scope without even as much as a blatt. In my opinion a .223 with a lightly constructed bullet will do the trick on deer every time but a swift will serve one that much better. I understand there are experts marketing and permoting the perfect deer hunting bullet with unmatched penetration and mushroom effect and weight retention. To put it into perspective, imagine getting shot in the chest with a varm bullet out of a swift or a soft point out of a 308. I think I would take my chances with the .308 soft point as I know the varm bullet would not punch a hole it would blow me up like a baloon turning my chest into a jelly like mass. So what makes deer different? Im no expert I have just shot deer for the past 40 years using everything under the sun and found varm bullets never fail in the one shot drop dept.

[243dave]

I've had trouble with varmint bullets and the 22-250.  Every now and then you will have a deer run when it should have died in its tracks.  When this happens with a varmint bullet, there is a very small entery wound with no exit and a blood-trail is non-existant.  Where I hunt the brush can get thick and tracking a deer without a blood trail is tough and game can be lost even if it only runs 150yds before dying.  I've had spectacular kills with varmint bullets but they are not dependable, sooner or later one will run even with a perfect hit and jellified inards, and thats when you'd wished you would have used that bullet that would have given that big blood trail.  In my opinion there are better bullets than varmint bullets for deer.   
Dave

[gr8ful]

My 12 year old niece has killed two does with a 223 handi.  She hunts in a box stand with her father and her shots are under 100 yds.  They wait for perfect broadside shots.  Her load is a federal 60gr partition factory load, and results from the skinning shed wouldn't be any different had she been shooting a .243.  Bullet construction is the key, trouble is, there are too many goobers out there who will read threads like this one and go buy a box of 40gr varmit bullets and head for the woods.  Just like the guys who will swear that it takes a .338 Ultra Mag to reliably kill a 100 lb white tail because the can't shoot worth spit.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  You are correct about shooting under one hundred yards from a box blind and probab ly over bait also...BUT NOT EVERYONE "HUNTS" LIKE THAT.......

[223fan]

This tread has lasted a long time.I think that the 223 has proved itself as a deer round.You may or may not like it but that that is an indivual choice,heck I can't stand a 243 but there are a bunch of folks sure do.

[gr8ful]

You are correct about shooting under one hundred yards from a box blind and probab ly over bait also...BUT NOT EVERYONE "HUNTS" LIKE THAT.......

True the "real" hunters shoot em at 400yds from their truck window! 

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  When I was a kid and young man, real hunters hunted..the stalked, stood on stands with out blinds, & made drives.  I had one aunt who hunted from a blind..now that is a common method of hunting...last fall, I took three whitetails one was taken from a stand on the side of a mt..not a blind, or tree stand, but an open stand under a tree...the other two were taken by still hunting the timber...this is the most difficult of hunting pratices...unfortunately most hunters today can not hunt this way..It might simply b e a lack of space, but most likely a lack of skill or ambition...    As for the .22 cal. on game they are illegal in many states...

[RWK]

Wyo coyote hunter, your right all the way, today hunters want to sit on there assets and want others to push the animals to them. When i started in 1957 my dad and uncles would point you in a direction and tell to walk through it and then we held drives, but you learned by the miles you put on and learned to slow down.

[teddy12b]

I don't see what makes a ground blind any different than a tree stand other than one being on the ground.  It's pretty easy to get a little preachy if you've got a great place to hunt, but in my case I certainly don't.  I think most people here would love to have enough land to do some drives or stalk timbers, but they don't and because of that I don't think it's fair or even respectable to stick noses up to those who don't live in such great huntable surroundings.  Not trying to be overly offensive, but the Tred Barta attitude of "mines the only real way to hunt" just gets kind of old.

[gr8ful]

I don't see what makes a ground blind any different than a tree stand other than one being on the ground.  It's pretty easy to get a little preachy if you've got a great place to hunt, but in my case I certainly don't.  I think most people here would love to have enough land to do some drives or stalk timbers, but they don't and because of that I don't think it's fair or even respectable to stick noses up to those who don't live in such great huntable surroundings.  Not trying to be overly offensive, but the Tred Barta attitude of "mines the only real way to hunt" just gets kind of old.

+1

[jmayton]

I think hunting effectively requires a big toolbox of techniques, skills, know-how, and equipment.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  jm, you are right hunting does require a tool box of different methods for hunting..and private ground is GREAT hunting, I wish I had the chance to do that...

[semperfi1970]

Yaa, I to remember being a real hunter driving deer with pots and pans just a banging. Taking turnes being shooters or drivers, man I sure miss the good old days when I could herd deer into a gauntlet of gun fire. Gee I wish I was younger so I could be a real hunter agian. 

[Dee]

The real issue here is one hunter from another region telling another hunter from another region what is ethical, practical, and "real hunting" . Before I moved back home, I hunted an area that held whitetail, AND mule deer. I knew that whitetail were spooky, and that mule deer were dumb as a post, and I hunted them differently.
I started calling coyotes in the late 60s when it wasn't popular, and have killed them in the open from less than 10 feet away, so it ain't like I don't hunt. Getting a coyote to come within 7 or 8 feet while laying in 6" tall winter wheat in the middle of 500 acres pales the skill to sneak up on a mule deer by quite a bit. 
I know that western states many times are wide open, and areas like where I live here in Texas, the visibility is at times under 10 feet. I recognize that fact, and care not if a hunter in that area chooses a "kill'em in the next county" rifle.
I hear, and even sometimes get these "high toned", "moral" lectures, from folks that have not a clue about my area, but they just "KNOW" how it should be done down here.
Take the issue of feral hogs. Let's not wound those little creatures, they might suffer. The FACT OF THE MATTER, is that hogs, feral or otherwise are not native to the region, and are starving out the native species, yet many western states that CLAIM the "moral high ground" on hunting, POSION PRAIRE DOGS, which are native to the area, Or at least they used to. 
A friendly discussion is when the hunters of different areas ACCEPT what is different from THEIR AREA, as acceptable in other areas.
For instance, DEER DRIVES. I have never participated in such an event, but hardly call it hunting, but rather call it herding. HOWEVER! Given terrain I can see where it would be necessary to move deer into an area where a shot would be more likely for those not willing, or able to go in after them. Is it a MORAL way to hunt? Hell, I don't know or care. If it's legal and suits you, who cares.
The original issue on this thread was shoot deer with a 223.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Dee, you make many valid points and for the most part I can agree with you even though we disagree at times..I also riled me to have some one say people who could not shoot bought bigger guns to make up for their lack of skill...I know you can kill deer with a .223 and even smaller..In some country I have used that gun and hunted over bait...it is not my favorite, but in that country it was the way things were done and it was for a reason... It irks me to have someone say if you use a bigger rifle you are not a good shot etc..when I was a kid, the very BEST SHOTS and hunters in our country tended to use bigger rifles so they could cover ALL the chances that were offered..Several of them took to long range shooting, NOT because they were poor shooters, or hunters, they infact were some of the very best...they went this was because first, they love shooting and long distance shooting presented a real challange for them, and two they were having less  enjoyment of std. hunting pratices..the real long range shot, puts mucho money time, and effort into his pratice...I know very well, you can kill a deer with a .223, hunting over bait is legal, and in some areas necessary, BUT I also get darn mad when one of the devotees of this kind of hunting slams those who hunt with larger guns under different conditions...Conditions certainly dictate the type of rifles use for deer hunting or anything else...I was not giving a moral lecture, but expressing my opinion..that is what this is about...

[teddy12b]

The problem is that we as hunters have to recognize that there aren't enough of us left to be seperating ourselves into groups and saying "My way is right, and your way is wrong".  If it's legal it's legal.  Bottom line is that if the animal dies quickly and suffers as little as possible it was an ethical shot.  It just gets old reading guys talk about "real" hunting and whatever BS they are trying to put out there.

I don't care if a guy hunts with 338lapua at 1300 yards in open fields, a 30-06 at 400 yards, a lever action 44mag in the thick woods, a crossbow, or a long bow.  Hunting is hunting, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else what's "real" or not.  The whole point is to spend some time appreciating where food comes from.  How it gets to the plate is up to us to decide individually within the limits of the law.

As far as the 223 for deer goes, I've never done it because it's not legal in my area.  If it were legal, I'd try to find the heaviest bullets I could, but I do that for every caliber regardless.  If the 22LR can kill a deer, a stick and a string can kill a deer, I don't doubt that a 223 rounds can kill a deer. 

[jmayton]

Well, as the OP here, I'm not sure how I should feel about the 338-06 I just had done, or whether or not I should use it on Hogs, Whitetail, or wait until someone introduces Cape Buffalo to our area. . . or how I should hunt with it.

Wait, yes I do.  I'll take it out and kill what is legal and necessary here.  I'll use whatever means gives me the best opportunity and respects the nature of the native species (that means I'd kill hogs using hand grenades if I could. . .but not deer).  Heck, I'd get in a helicopter and shoot the sucker's from the air (which is now legal in TX).  And I'll do with with the biggest and smallest guns that will get the job done from single shots to semi's. 

Everyone has their preference as to caliber and technique.  And some work better than others in certain areas.  I'm not gonn try for pronghorns out in NM with the .223.  It just doen't have a lot of energy at the ranges that are required.  But I'm not going squirrel hunting with the 338.  Recognize the ability of your caliber and yourself and have a good time.