Author Topic: How are Vangaurds to build from (Read 3955 times)

nofun1 · « **on:** November 30, 2009, 04:31:06 AM »

I want to build a 300 Whisper for a suppressed subsonic rifle and need to thin the existing herd some. I have a 223 Vanguard that never gets shot and was thinking of using the action for a build. I have asked 2 different gunsmiths one likes them the other says dont bother. Have any of you guys had any experience building on Howa\Vangaurds?

Swampman · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:36:05 AM »

Don't bother

Dee · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:42:57 AM »

I would talk to the guy your going to get to do the build, unless of course your doing it yourself.

sachel.45 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:12:40 AM »

theres a guy over on 24hourcampfire.com thats built quite a few rifles on the howa/weatherby action the action is everybit as good as the remington 700 or any of the other good bolt action rifle makers

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:18:58 AM »

But you're sinking money into an action with no resale value.

One Eye · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:58:43 AM »

Quote from: Dee on November 30, 2009, 04:42:57 AM

I would talk to the guy your going to get to do the build, unless of course your doing it yourself.

This is much better advice than relying on those that have a clear bias against certain manufacturers.
Dan

nofun1 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2009, 12:39:56 PM »

Thanks for the input, I am a little surprised I thought that on this site there would be a bias toward H\V stuff, I guess I'll keep looking.

One Eye · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2009, 03:39:50 PM »

Quote from: nofun1 on November 30, 2009, 12:39:56 PM

Thanks for the input, I am a little surprised I thought that on this site there would be a bias toward H\V stuff, I guess I'll keep looking.

Be careful measuring feedback based on the posters on this thread. I strongly suggest you do a search on the usernames and then draw your own conclusions regarding their motives.

I suspect most people that are buying/shooting Vanguards are not building new rifles because they shoot so darn good out of the box. No need to "customize" something that already works.
Dan

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2009, 03:43:32 PM »

If you want to use a cheap action, I think the Savage 110 would be a better choice. At least there are a few aftermarket parts for it. The Japanese made rifles just aren't that accurate.

nodlenor · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:10:25 PM »

Yeah, the Howas just aren't very accurate unless you call four shots in the bullseye (1 inch) at one hundred yards accurate which is what my 25-06 Howa did just a few days ago. And that was with me pulling the trigger. All manufacturers make a bad one once in a while and I've had some of them but the three Howas that I own all shoot very accurate. Just because they are foreign made doesn't mean they are junk.

Dee · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:34:31 PM »

nodlenor, I have never owned a Howa, but people that do like them. I have handled them, and their factory trigger is better than average out of the box.

WL44 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2009, 09:31:18 PM »

I have no personal experience of the rifles aside from through friends, but I am considering one for a build myself.

Do some research on the net and you will find several comments, most of which are very positive. I've looked this over very recently and many posters seemed to prefer the Howa to the Rem 700 in some respects and that includes several gunsmiths.

I own a Rem 700, so I'm not biased, but in view of the positive feedback I see no reason not to do it. The stocks are not good and those that I've seen and handled would confirm this view.

By the way, I've been told that the barrels are a pita to remove. Your smith also needs to know that the threads are metric on a Howa, I'm not sure about a Vanguard.

sachel.45 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 01, 2009, 02:34:35 AM »

there are aftermarket parts for howa/vanguards theres stocks, triggers, bottom metal, there even a detachable magazine option.

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2009, 04:12:46 AM »

You're right, they're all very inaccurate. I'm just glad I found one dumb one a few weeks ago to run into the shotgun pattern of my .308 Vanguard Compact at 250+ yds.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** December 01, 2009, 05:38:34 AM »

2 or 3 MOA will fill the freezer.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #15 on:** December 01, 2009, 08:19:40 AM »

well the 1/2 to 3/4 MOA i get with every vanguard i have bought (5), except one which did 1.5" is good too.

i have had the same number of remington 700's and only 2 of those would do as good as the vanguards.

they are good rifles, as good as any to build from. any reputable smith can make what you want with one.

we all have our opinions. then there's the FACTS.

lucky guy · « **Reply #16 on:** December 02, 2009, 11:15:50 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on November 30, 2009, 03:43:32 PM

If you want to use a cheap action, I think the Savage 110 would be a better choice. At least there are a few aftermarket parts for it. The Japanese made rifles just aren't that accurate.

yeah, my completely stock 308 Howa only puts 175 matchkings with 45.x gr of Varget into sub .5 groups at a hundred yds (and a fair amount under .3). Most any hunting bullet I've loaded for it is sub moa. And we all know Weatherby's don't shoot. I really am saying this with a smile, no flame intended, but I just couldn't let that comment go.

Go with what your gunsmith likes. Mine built his 300 wsm elk rifle on a howa action, could have used anything he wanted. Any action is gonna be trued and squared on a good build. I'd be more concerned about the barrel. Can't argue with the Savage either, lots of BR guns built on Savage actions.

Swampman · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:00:34 PM »

My friend has a new .308 Howa. So far it hasn't been able to shoot less than 2 MOA with anything we've fed it. I took it out of the stock and looked at the trigger group. Yikes!

mjbgalt · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:01:24 PM »

yeah, yikes. it looks like a remington, two screws and a trigger.

they're no worse or better than most makes.

Dee · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:44:35 AM »

mjbgalt, two screws and a trigger can be scary if you haven't a clue what your lookin at.

Swampman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:33:58 AM »

Pot metal & workmanship similar to a Daisy BB gun.

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #21 on:** December 03, 2009, 04:53:53 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 03, 2009, 02:33:58 AM

Pot metal & workmanship similar to a Daisy BB gun.

Yes, and the stock is made of Lincoln Logs and the action is from an Erector Set, with a shot glass for optics, but it sure does shoot purty...

catboat · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:35:13 AM »

No experience personally, on using one in a rebarrel job.

I do have one (SW 1500 , made by Howa), and it is one of the best made, best designed rifle actions on the market.
http://www.legacysports.com/products/howa/howa_baractions.html
Compare Howa with other factory barreled actions:

• Forged steel, flat-bottomed receiver with large recoil lug and hammer-forged barrel.
• Heavy Varmint barrels have recessed muzzle crowns.
• Forged, one-piece, bind-proof bolt with dual locking lugs, M-16-style extractor and large cocking indicator.
• Three-position safety allows safe single-loading and secure bolt lock-down.
• Bolt and receiver are ported to vent away high-pressure gases in the unlikely event of a pierced primer or ruptured case.
• Receiver rings are precision drilled and tapped for accurate, rigid scope mounting.
• One-piece guard and magazine box with hinged floorplate.
• Choice of short and long actions, standard and heavy barrels, in blued and stainless steel.

Weatherby uses the Howa action in the Vanguard model. The claims about inaccuracy are wrong. Howa/Vanguard had an accuracy guarantee of 3 shots in 1.5 moa at 100 yards for years (marketing angle). Their quality is top notch (forged action, one piece forged bolt handle and bolt body for strength.

As for aftermarket options, there are certainly all you need. Howa's take the same scope bases as Remington 700's (did anyone know that?). Stocks are available. Triggers are available (Timney). What else do you need?

I've read that there is one glitch in rebarreling a Howa. As I understand it, the barrels are difficult to remove from the action. To remove, you must use a lathe to make a small relief groove just in front of the action-then it is easy to remove. I think I read about this on accurate reloading.com in the gunsmithing section. I have read it multiple places, so it should be relatively easy to find.

In short, go ahead and do the project if you want. I think the Howa/Vanguard action is top notch, high quality, well designed, well made. They've been around for 30 years and are not going away.

Good luck with your rebuild / rebarrel project.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:30:39 PM »

from this site: http://www.snipercentral.com/vanguardvs.htm
i read the following: The average group size for all the different match loadings has been around that .8" range that the factory test target produced. The ABT has been around 1.0" and the federal and black hills a bit less, around that .7". We did get one nice group with federal GMM that measured .415" and is featured in the photos on this page.

i recommend you look at that website to see what else they say.

i like my .270 Win' Vanguard. it's got a heavy stock; but it's stable and i like it, too.

ss'

Skunk · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2009, 01:13:22 PM »

Quote from: catboat on December 04, 2009, 08:35:13 AM

PS: I've come back to edit this response after I found out something very interesting about this website. I typed in another gun website, and it came out as "censored word." I came back and modified the website name (added a space between the two words-and it took). That is disappointing. I don't visit just one website, nor do other readers. To censore another gun-related website link is childish, in my view. What's the point?

Don't worry Catboat, gun-related websites are never censored here without a reason. The one you mentioned obviously earned its being censored.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:28:32 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 03, 2009, 02:33:58 AM

Pot metal & workmanship similar to a Daisy BB gun.

Yep, that pretty much sums up the Remington 700's that I've owned and others I've shot. Stocks come from the same supplier too.

lucky guy · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2009, 04:14:48 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 02, 2009, 12:00:34 PM

My friend has a new .308 Howa. So far it hasn't been able to shoot less than 2 MOA with anything we've fed it. I took it out of the stock and looked at the trigger group. Yikes!

Try 175 Sierra Matchkings .010" off the lands with 44 - 46 grains of Varget, most any 308 will shoot that load well. If that one won't shoot I'd think something is up with the rifle too. Not the brand per se though, too many of them shoot well. How heavy is the trigger? You ought to be able to get it down around 3# or a little less. Sucks when a rifle won't shoot, hope you get it figured out.

Casull · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2009, 05:40:28 PM »

Quote

The Japanese made rifles just aren't that accurate.

Now that is funny, Swampy. Just don't tell that to the Browing, Weatherby and Howa boys.

Quote

My friend has a new .308 Howa. So far it hasn't been able to shoot less than 2 MOA with anything we've fed it. I took it out of the stock and looked at the trigger group. Yikes!

Might try letting someone else shoot it. I've got two Howas and one Vangaurd. Worst group shot with any of them was about 1.75" (with cheap factory ammo).

super mario · « **Reply #28 on:** December 08, 2009, 04:45:50 PM »

this is my weatherby 7-08 with a knox stock.
It did 3 under an inch at 200 yds during break in
Yep not very accurate

mrbigtexan · « **Reply #29 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:25:06 PM »

my friend has an accurate s&w 1500 in .270