Question about effectiveness of round on DG???

[mannyrock]

  The 45/70 may be adequate for killing DG, but it ain't adequate for stopping it.  And stopping it is the appropriate test.

[Tonk]

You know sometimes big game and especially dangerous game animals react in different ways when shot by the hunters. I have seen a little women shoot a Cape Buffalo with a .375H&H and drop that bull in his tracks. I saw her husband use his .416 Remington and miss the mark with the first shot and then the fun started quickly. It took 6 more shots, 2 from a 500 N.E. double of the PH's and 3 more shots from the hunter and head tracker.

It does pay to listen to someone who has the experience and knowledge about hunting dangerous game animals. If you go to Africa to hunt dangerous game, do as you are instructed by your PH, it could save your rearend in a tight situation. I have spoken to at least a dozen PH's over the years and none mind you, would even consider a client using a lever gun or single shot rifle. Now I am positive there is someone out there who might bend to the cause of the almighty dollar but that would never make it proper.

[BMKindoll]

Not to start this up again, but I have a question that I have been meaning to ask this whole thread but always forget , so here goes...

How in the world  does the fact that a gun is a lever action all of a sudden, as by magic, make it unsuitable for DG??  Last time I checked a lever action gun was still a repeating rifle. Kinda like a bolt action and last time I checked those were used quite often on hunts. 

And lastly, about the 45/70.  I know I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it amazes me the snobbery of people associated with African hunting.  They will claim how ridiculous it is for folks to try and rationalize how a 45/70 could be possibly be used for DG. 

The funny part about this is that, a 45/70 HAS been used for DG!! And it was successful.  Just go read about it!!  I ain't gonna call that guy a liar are you??  And from the sounds of his experiences, which I understand can be exaggerated, it was as successful as any other "DG specific" round.

So I will say I find it way more irrational for someone to argue AGAINST something, i.e. the 45/70, that has obviously worked.  You're debating AGAINST something that is documented fact!!  I just don't get it.

Now the original discussion about the .500 S&W, I won't argue that because I haven't read any accounts of someone using it in an effective manner.  But the 45/70 is well documented.

Brandon

[calling4life]

The argument the more experienced African pros throw is that the cartridge really isn't legal, and that if it were an adequate cartridge, then it would be legal to use.  Above that, if it were not only adequate, but extremely efficient, you would see them not only be legal, but you'd see pro hunters carrying them.

4570 will kill the game, the question has always really come to the immediate stopping power vs the bigger elephants, or cape buffalo.

The snobbish tone really comes because they have to dispute this issue almost every week on here, it gets annoying, gets old, gets beaten to death. 

When it comes down to it, they have the experience, they hold the knowledge, they should be listened to.

As far as why the dig at levers, that argument I don't really know to much about, I've always read that they were a reliable repeater, and when face to face with a charging animal, I'd call that a big asset to have.  I think I remember something about their excessive recoil...??  But the pros may be able to touch on their reasoning here.

[BMKindoll]

I agree completely they should be respected, and that they have more knowledge than me on the subject.  My problem comes from the insinuation that I should believe 100% what they say, just because they are the one that said it.  I have yet to hear one person say that they have seen a person/been out in the field, hunting DG, that was using a 45-70, and it simply didn't get the job done. 

But I have read more than one account of folks, in the field, using a 45-70, and that it was effective.  That's what I am going by.

I am not saying the 45-70 is the ultimate DG gun, far from it.  But what I am saying is that, the fact somebody who claims to know more than me tells me, or the fact that it happens to be "illegal"(which I have a hard time believing), is not enough to convince me of it's inadequacy.  Not with all the accounts that claim the contrary.

Brandon

[dukkillr]

The argument the more experienced African pros throw is that the cartridge really isn't legal, and that if it were an adequate cartridge, then it would be legal to use.  Above that, if it were not only adequate, but extremely efficient, you would see them not only be legal, but you'd see pro hunters carrying them.

4570 will kill the game, the question has always really come to the immediate stopping power vs the bigger elephants, or cape buffalo.

The snobbish tone really comes because they have to dispute this issue almost every week on here, it gets annoying, gets old, gets beaten to death. 

When it comes down to it, they have the experience, they hold the knowledge, they should be listened to.

As far as why the dig at levers, that argument I don't really know to much about, I've always read that they were a reliable repeater, and when face to face with a charging animal, I'd call that a big asset to have.  I think I remember something about their excessive recoil...??  But the pros may be able to touch on their reasoning here.

Fantastic post.  Can we now let this issue drop?

[Lloyd Smale]

JJHACK  Im sure you realize that the main problem with the 458 when it first hit africa wasnt that it didnt have enough speed its that the bullets that were loaded for it at the time wouldnt even hold up to the speeds it was producing. I know of one professional elephant hunter that i met in person that has taken a number of them with 475 revolvers and will tell you that he got just as good of penetration with good bullets out of that then he did with alot of the factory loaded 458 solids. Whether it is legal to use or not is definately a problem. If its not i guess you just cant but like many other things the reason its not may not be totaly understood. Im sure they dont add cartidges to the list every day and in the case of the 4570 the reason it no doubt isnt is if they did make it legal there would be no doubt some idiot taking one out with factory 405 corelocks or 300 hps and getting themselves killed. I can push a 420-450 grain solid brass punch bullet out of a marlin at 1800 fps and thats right on the edge of 458 ballistics with a bullet that is superior to most of the bullets loaded in a 458 and theres rounds that are legal for use on dangerous game that wouldnt perform that well. I havent shot elephant or even cape buffalo so im far from an expert but i know one thing for fact. I wouldnt hesitate for a minute using a 4570 loaded like that for the purpose. It would be vastly superior to what the norm was for stopping rifles 40 years ago. I seriously doubt your going to shock an elephant into stopping in a charge. What needs to be done is to put a bullet somewhere in its central nervous system and believe me not much out there will punch through more or pentrated deaper then a 450 grain punch bullet at 1800 fps Weve done penetration tests on most big rifles and handguns and these loads work.

[don heath]

Lloyd...I would disagree. My experience of 1960's vintage .458 Win ammo was...75% of the box were doing a genuine 2150fps ...the remainder ..anywhere from 1900 down to 600fps and that is where the 'failures' crept in. At 1900fps on a buffalo you wouldn't even notice the drop in velocity, nore on a side brain shot on elephant...below about 1700fps everything started to fall appart.  We loast the odd officer killed because of the 'one in a box'  doing below 1700fps that just pissed something large off. I very nearly got squashed by my first elephant because two bullets failed to penetrate adequately (and two went right through the head but missed the brain )

The problem has been traced to powder compaction. This has improved in recent years, and several of my friends use .458''s with every satisfaction. But using south african ball powder...lifespan of the ammo is one year. We have kept small test samples and fired it and after three years we start seeing a few 'funnies' in the velocity so just cycle your ammo regularly and no problem. Modern .458 Win ammo like the Norma with the Barnes Bullets and loaded with stick propellant give no trouble at all.

The old winchester and Hornady steel jacketed solids were great. IMHO the old round nosed Hornady .458 bullets were the best ever put on the market and the only ones able to withstand .460 Weatherby velocities. 

[Bigeasy]

Just a few thoughts-

Back "in the day", the 8 bore rifle, firing a 900 grain lead ball at about 1500fps was considered rather good elephant medicine.  I would think, R/E the original posters question, that a hard, conical style bullet of 700 grains at the same velocity would be at least as effective, being penetration is as important as it is on brain shots.  Heck, the .303 and 7x57 worked for Bell based on penetration, not FPE.   But then again, the biggest thing I ever shot was a moose, and he just looked at me, then fell over dead...

Larry

[don heath]

Big easy

Back in the day ...no bdoy took head shots. They took behind the shoulder shots and tried to hunt from hoseback so that if they got the shot wrong they could get away while they re-loaded. That is what was so 'novel' about Selous- he hunted on foot.

Only when the .303 came out did hunters have a tool that was sutiable for brain shots on elephant.

I have had several (more than a dozen) hunters come out and take lion, elephant and buff with black powder, personally done one elephant and one buff with a bow and guided 5 other such hunts and personally shot one elephant and one buff with a .41 mag revolver and guided 7 handgun hunts for big game. It can be done. It can be done safely - but you will have to risk passing up a good trophy because the angle is wrong or you cannot get close enough or...well, you choose for whatever personal reason to limmit your effectiveness and usually the PH helps you get the trophy anyway (but not always).

A great Bow hunter (pete Shepley from PSE bows hunting with Gordon duncan got three arrows into a big elephant  before Gordon had to shoot it in self defence with a rifle. It would have been the world No1 bow  record for elephant, but (bad)'luck' meant that none of the arrows made it into the heart or hit an artery.   

[S.E.Ak]

Hunting everywhere has one thing that stays the same and that is what the locals use and the man paying money backed by a guide are two different things. Sure TR killed,maimed and wounded many a critter in Africa with his 1895 lever gun in 405win takeing shots that even the guide couldn't help much and I'm glad things have changed.Anything will take game as proved by the locals but when paying money do what the person your paying says to do simple as that.

[Lloyd Smale]

Don i never shot an elephant so am surely no expert but ive done enough penetration testing to know what a heavy punch bullet out of a 4570 will go through. Ive got to bet on an animal the size of an elephant pentration is what kills not a few more feet per second of velocity that adds a few more ft lbs of energy. I doubt if you shot through the head of an elepant with a 460 and didnt hit the brain that the outcome would have been any differnt. As with any animal that walks the face of the earth shot placement is the most important consideration, penetration capeablitiy would be next and ft lbs of energy a distant third. Ive shot a half a dozen bison and one water bufflao and know that nothing actually shocks an animal that large. If you look at the size of an elephant saying a 458 will knock one down better then a properly loaded 4570 is about like saying a 22 mag will knock down a deer better then a 22lr. I think that if you actually tried a punch bullet out of a 4570 youd be awfull impressed with what it will accomplish.

Lloyd...I would disagree. My experience of 1960's vintage .458 Win ammo was...75% of the box were doing a genuine 2150fps ...the remainder ..anywhere from 1900 down to 600fps and that is where the 'failures' crept in. At 1900fps on a buffalo you wouldn't even notice the drop in velocity, nore on a side brain shot on elephant...below about 1700fps everything started to fall appart.  We loast the odd officer killed because of the 'one in a box'  doing below 1700fps that just pissed something large off. I very nearly got squashed by my first elephant because two bullets failed to penetrate adequately (and two went right through the head but missed the brain )

The problem has been traced to powder compaction. This has improved in recent years, and several of my friends use .458''s with every satisfaction. But using south african ball powder...lifespan of the ammo is one year. We have kept small test samples and fired it and after three years we start seeing a few 'funnies' in the velocity so just cycle your ammo regularly and no problem. Modern .458 Win ammo like the Norma with the Barnes Bullets and loaded with stick propellant give no trouble at all.

The old winchester and Hornady steel jacketed solids were great. IMHO the old round nosed Hornady .458 bullets were the best ever put on the market and the only ones able to withstand .460 Weatherby velocities. 

[don heath]

Lloyd...458 Win , .470 NE and .500 NE are all marginal for elephant. too little penetration for quatering on shots on a big bull. They are fine for a client and OK for a PH if nothing goes too wrong. I do know from first hand experience that a 500grn FMJ at 1900fps failed to go through the Zygomatic arch on a medium sized bull on the PH exams.  Buffalo are small, soft animals- put both shoulders together and you are about 1/4 of the bone mass of an elephants leg.

...there is a reason why the .45/70 isn't legal for dangerous game. It is not that you cannot kill elephant with it (I have had clients use much less powerful weapons) but that you cannot do so from any angle. If the .458 win is marginal and you reduce either bullet SD or velocity you will reduce penetration...it isn't rocket science. If you read up on the military work on penetrating hard cover- velocity wins within the structural integraty of the bullet.  

Also, remember , lead bullets don't make the grade. Solid copper ones mushroom and even brasss ones often bend. I have never seen a cast lead bullet - however hard- survive. A south African firm tried making 600grn hard cast and copper plated bullets for the .458 win. At 1700fps they performed awsomely on buffalo...and failed spectacularly on the PH exams.

To use your comparison on small game...its like comparing a .22 short with a .22Mag

[halfbreed]

This will be my first, and probably my last reply to this thread.
 At one time I thought about hunting in Africa, I wanted a 45-70, hell it destroyed the American Bison herd, so it had to be good.
 I have actually seen a photo, or set of photos from an African hunt where the hunter was dead, the PH was probably going to die, along with several others. The real interesting part was a mangled 45-70 on the ground. I do not know what the others were carrying, or what was shot.
 I bought a 458 winnie for hunting and camping in Alaska, But now I doubt I ever make that trip either.
 John

P.S.
 I have spoken with Mr. JJ Hack a couple of times regarding African plains game hunts. I greatly appreciated his attitude in dealing with me. Someone who has never been there, and was trying to understand the neccisseties of Africa.
 Try listening to the man who is your safety net.

[JJHACK]

Thanks Don, you wrote about the old 458 ammo velocity issues I was going to post.

Lloyd who is the PH you know that used a revolver for elephant culling? I would like to know who it is for future reference.

Also you wrote that a 420 grain bullet at 1800 fps is on the edge of a 458 win mag. The key part of your comment is "on the edge"

a 500 gr bullet at 2150 is the 458 standard, and in some very experienced folks opinion base line marginal. Your definition of the "edge" would seem very wide if 420@1800 is in your opinion close to 500@2150!

[Lloyd Smale]

JJ his name slips my mind. He was at a linebaugh seminar about 6 years ago. He gave a talk on handgun hunting elephant and penetration on elephant with various handguns and rifles. His favorite was a 475 using some kind of weird bullet. I believe it was a cast bullet with a brass cap on it. Somewhat opposite of a gas checked bullet. He said the 475 would about allways give complete penetration on an elephants head and the 500 was a bit iffy doing the same. next time i talk with my buddy Al ill ask him his name for you. Bottom line is alot of this is just opinions. Ive killed hundreds of whitetail and have my opinion on what works and what doesnt but you can find a bunch of experienced whitetail hunters that have differnt opinions. I know that elephants have been taken with 44 mags 454s 475s and 500s and about every rilfe caliber made. Id bet theres a bunch of elephant hunters that will tell you the 458 isnt enough and just as many that will tell you a 375 is enough. Not everyone that hunts elephant does it with a 460 weatherby or a big double rifle. A guide has a use for such a gun to stop animals that cleints make poor shots on just as grizzly guides carry guns that are usually more powerfull then needed to do the same. Like i said ive never shot an elephant and probably never will. But i have done extensive penetration testing on most common big bore rifle rounds and handgun rounds and a 4570 loaded with a 420 punch bullet at 1800 fps will run with any of them.

[Lloyd Smale]

here are some penetration results to look over. Compare the big stoppers with even the 4570 using cast hammer heads. I know for a fact the punch bullets will outperform the hammer heads in penetration. http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp. Now if you dumped the round nose solids in the stopping rifles and used a good flat nosed solid like what are getting popular now im sure the results would change as most round nose solids dont track straight when pentrating tough material. I think part of the disagreement we have here is bullet selection and thats why the 4570 isnt leagal to hunt with. Not everyone that goes to africa hunting is a bullet expert as a matter of fact id bet that most are rich guys that can afford it and havent even handloaded a round in there life. Putting a 4570 with factory ammo in there hands would be a big mistake. Buddy Al thought the guys name was otto candice. Im not possitive on the spelling.

[bcraig]

I remember the article I believe.
I read an article a long time ago, sounds very similiar and the article was written by ROSS SEYFRIED.
In the article he still claims there are better rounds than the 458 mainly because of powder capacity and pressures in the heat BUT says that he has shot through elephants heads with revolvers.loaded with less than 1800 or so fps.
and that as Lott described the incident that led to the developement of the 458 Lott that the problem in that specific incident wasn,t due to lack of velocity but bullets that didn,t perform properly IE too soft.

[tim416]

I was on a safari last September with a client that took two cape buffalo with a 45-70 Handgun. He was using 500gr. solids loaded to about 1500 fps. He took five rounds to take down the first buffalo, and the second was killed with one round. We recovered two bullets, the remaining bullets fully penetrated and exited the buffalo.
If the question is, will it kill DG" the answer is yes. If the question is "is it advisable" I would lean to no.

[mk454]

I was on a safari last September with a client that took two cape buffalo with a 45-70 Handgun. He was using 500gr. solids loaded to about 1500 fps. He took five rounds to take down the first buffalo, and the second was killed with one round. We recovered two bullets, the remaining bullets fully penetrated and exited the buffalo.
If the question is, will it kill DG" the answer is yes. If the question is "is it advisable" I would lean to no.

so with all the number of buff i've seen take 5 rounds from a 505 gibbs or 458 lott, gotta ask what they offer his handgun didn't.  and why wasn't it advisable.


so now the most common two double rifle calibers in the past being largely the 470 nitro and 500 nitro along with the 450/400 are all marginal on elephant, wow, if you'd quit staying behind the times and stop using round nose bullets and the like they'd be incredible and nothing close to marginal

[don heath]

I have said it before and I'll say it again...there is a difference between a stopping round and one that can kill. When wer legalised handgun and black powder hunting in Zimbabwe, I did the demonstration shootings for the parks directorate (I was Senior Ecologist at the time) I used a S&W M58 (.41 Mag). Side shots no problem.

Our culling officers used 30-06 Garands with A square solids  or Soviet Drananov rifles with AP ammo for 90+% of the animals killed.  I have personally killed a big bull elephant with a frontal shot from a 7x57 after failure to penetrate with a .458 Win.

Buffalo are not elephant or Hippo. They are tough, and have over lapping ribs - I have seen arrows bounce off...but they are only 1800lbs or so for a big one! Elephant and hippo are a whole differeent story. Penetration is the key and no lead bullet I have ever seen will penetrate a bull from quatering on. For a client- hell yes, bring what ever boils your veggies:- If I do my job as a PH well, I will set you up for a shot where you will not be handicaped by the limitations of your chosen weapon . I will have a real rifle to solve things should you not shoot straight. 

[JJHACK]

I will have a real rifle to solve things should you not shoot straight.

Don, We ( you and I)  have been saying this for almost a decade now on the internet. There are a number of folks who have never set foot in Africa that have killed a whole lot of Clay, newsprint, and phone books that know far more about this. They use the novelty photos and the stunt hunts to claim that because it's been done with a massive backup plan just out of site with the PH. (Never seen in the Photo's or spoken of after the hunt). Then they believe the gun/bullet/weapon they want to believe is the end all DG choice is going to work with flawless precision.

Once you are within striking distance of these DG animals no gun feels big enough, and every hunter I have had with me, has expressed shock and surprise at just how much more threatening it was then they ever expected.

A a good hit with a small cartridge will be good enough to eventually kill anything alive, but the object is to stop them, crumple them, and find them after the shot. The object is never to simply "kill" anything!

[don heath]

There are some photo's of me on the Norma home page dealing with an ele  charge at 2m range- bloody thing fell on me and broke my arm.  And you are 100% right when that lion starts grunting on the edge of camp or dry twigs snap like the whip of doom only yards ahead in the jess...then take an opinion on rifle caibres and you will have a whole lot of different answers to those given from the comfort and safety of an office.

funny, same thing with the machinegun- when nothing was going on, the squak got to lug the pig...when a contact looked immenant everybody wanted to play with 'the gun'

[drdougrx]

Wow Don!

Went to the NORMA site and saw your pics and read the story...I'm speachless.....glad you "survived!!!"

Best Regards!

Doug

[Lloyd Smale]

Like i said jj im one of the ones thats hasnt been there and done that but i have killed some pretty big animals with leverguns and handguns and have witnessed lots being shot by them and even some that have been shot by 458s 460s ect and will say this. When an animal gets over about a 1000lbs theres no gun that will drive them into the ground. Ive watched bison hit by a 458 contiue eating grass till they fell over dead. Ive seen the same thing when i shot one with my 500 linebaugh. My wife shot one water buffalo that took 2 50 cal punch bullets and walked off like it wasnt even hit. I get the feeling that some want a gun thats going to hit something like a elephant and deck it like a 7mag hitting a deer. I cant believe theres a gun made that will do it. I respect your opinion on african hunting but kind of think your answers are more centered on what a ph should be using. Theres very few people i know that can even handle a gun like a 460 or 600 nitro or even a 458 for that matter and im sure theres just as many wounded animals that you have to deal with because of poor shooting then there would ever be because the 4570 failed to penetrate on a precise shot. I will back out of this argument because like i said i dont have any actual experinence on african game and probably will never get the chance to do it. But you will never convince me that a punch bullet out of a 4570 at 1900 fps isnt enough gun for killing african game. Remember i didnt say stopping a wounded animal

[JJHACK]

We agree there is a difference between killing and stopping.

Both the client and the PH need to have a stopping rifle on Dangerous game. It's called dangerous for good reason.

Even a 30/06 will kill 4000lb animals, I've done it myself. Just as simple as a .22 rimfire will kill a Black Angus bull.

The ability to handle the task of killing with a small or less then functional cartridge strongly limits your shot choices. Locals and historical figures that killed thousands of big African animals had the luxury of time, and shot choices. A recreational sportsman has a 10 day to a couple weeks for a very expensive hunt. Turning down several easy shots with a small/ limited cartridge due to placement issues will handicap a hunter as much or more then anything else.

I have no issue with taking a hunter with a 45/70. I have never even once in my life said that I would not take a hunter with a 45/70 not a single time. By all means if this is what you want I will take you and you will be successful bringing home your trophy. Same with Archery or muzzle loaders.

However when somebody asks me straight up........ what do you like to see in a DG cartridge, or what do you suggest. The 45/70 does not make my short list.  If it's something you want to use I for one will not stand in your way!

[Qaz]

 I look at it this way, If I am going to pay to hunt in Africa, then I will take plenty of gun, not just enough. If I am hunting DG, then I want it DRT!! If a person is dumb enough to hunt DG with a caliber or round that is not a proven game stopper and for those that like to argue" Dangerous Game Stopper" then the PH should just move over and let nature take its course. After all, if you are that dumb, you need to be taken out of the gene pool anyway!!!

[Lloyd Smale]

I think the problem here is this post has gone two ways. Personaly as ive posted i think a properly loaded 4570 can take any animal alive cleanly with a well placed shot. Like about anyone knows even a 44 mag has done it. I thin JJ is looking at it from his perspective. He has worked as a ph and in that role your primary consern is protecting your hunter and it that case id want the biggest baddest gun i could handle. Big differnce in having to put down a wounded angry animal then there is in taking a precise shot at an animal that doesnt even know your there. As to a lever guns reliability and shootablity ill say this. A PROPERLY tuned lever gun is a reliable gun. Ive got two that i consider reliable. One a 4570 and the other my 50ak. Both took professional work to get there though. Niether of those guns has ever miss fed or given me any problems and i cant say that about alot of the bolt guns i own. Yes when you get into full power 50ak loads they do have some serious recoil but so do all the guns that JJ is recomending and if you cant shoot my 50ak i doubt your going to do good with even a 458. Id bet that even jj can tell you many stories of bolt guns missfeeding or someone short stroking one in the pressure of a hunt and also tell you many stories of a hunter showing up with a gun that recoiled more then he could handle and shot it like crap. Id bet if JJ was honest hed also admit hed rather have someone show up to hunt with a 4570 loaded with punch bullets that he could shoot well then someone showing up with a 458lott that he shot enough to sight it in

[don heath]

Persoannly I would rather the client shows up with something that is both adequate and legal A .45-70 is neither. I would rather have a client with a properly loaded .30-06 around elephant than any .45-70. With good steel jacketed solids - either old Horniday or current woodleighs the 30-06 will reach the heart or the brain from any angle.

I have guided clients who have used  45-70's...just as I have guided clients who have used flint locks, bows and handguns (and 30-06's on DG) ...anything under the legal minimum is a bit of a stunt though and increases the chance that a dangerous situation will develop and I will have to get involved. Obviously somethings are more likely to disintegrate into trouble than others...Black powder on elephant in a herd situation will result in a charge - or 2- Lion and elephant always seem to charge the smoke. On bulls it's fine but not on tuskless in a herd!! Bows on buff is another way to get yourself charged- at least 50% of the time the PH has to join in. A .45-70...no if the guy can shoot it and accepts the limmited performance you can safely guide him - provided you set him up right for the shot there will be no issues - same as the kids I have guided on dangerous game who have used my 30-06 becuase they couldn't actually shoot straight with the .375's they bought.

Lastly..I would rahter have a client who shoots well with a 9,3 or .375 H&H than badly with a .458 Lott. You can be overgunned   

[Lloyd Smale]

personaly i think the fact that an o6 using solids is legal and a 4570 shooting punch bullets isnt is almost laughable. But i guess those are the laws and a guy doesnt have much choise in the matter.