Author Topic: Question about effectiveness of round on DG??? (Read 7612 times)

BMKindoll · « **on:** December 01, 2009, 12:07:18 PM »

Hello everybody. First post in this section of the forum. I have a question for you "folks in the know"

I have no plans of actually using this cartridge for this purpose so this question is more just for curiosity's sake.

I just ordered some rounds for my .500 S&W Rifle. They are 700 grain, hard cast, bullets, and they leave the rifle at about 1550 fps.

My question is, would these be viable for DG in Africa? Meaning Elephant, Cape Buffalo, etc.

Just simply comparing different rounds using MxV it seems to stack up very well.

What do you all think?

Brandon

Grumulkin · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2009, 11:07:36 AM »

Well, I know of at least 1 buffalo taken with a 454 Casull handgun and of elephant taken with 375 JDJ handguns so, your load for the 500 S&W rifle should work. Now whether or not it's "viable" is another question. In my opinion, taking dangerous game with a muzzleloader, other single shot weapon or a bow is a stunt. When the day comes that intrepid hunters using these weapons are backed up by professional hunters using the same sort of arms rather than real stoppers like 470 NE doubles, etc., then I'll be impressed.

fr3db3ar · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2009, 11:11:51 AM »

That seems a little unfair. If I were to shoot DG with a bow and no gun was needed....how does this belittle my hunting?

Grumulkin · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:08:14 PM »

Quote from: fr3db3ar on December 02, 2009, 11:11:51 AM

That seems a little unfair. If I were to shoot DG with a bow and no gun was needed....how does this belittle my hunting?

It doesn't belittle your hunting but call it for what it is. If you're hunting with only a bow, you're bow hunting. If you're also carrying a gun I would submit you're really gun hunting.

I saw a hunting program several years ago in which a "bow hunter" hit a brown bear wounding it. He waited until the next day to track it presuming it might be dead and it wasn't. It was a good thing the two follow-uppers weren't carrying bows since the bear was still very much alive and came after them and was dispatched with the guns they were carrying.

Then there was the guy my PH guided on a "bow hunt" for a lion. His first shot didn't kill it. I understand he eventually bravely killed it with an arrow while his PH stood by with a BIG gun. What a joke.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:48:40 PM »

I suspect most by far the majority of dangerous game whether in Africa, Alaska or Canada taken by bow hunters are actually killed by the guide with a rifle. If it fails to go down rifle, handgun or bow the job of the guide is to make sure no one gets hurt so he's gonna be shooting pretty quickly after the initial shot. With a bow no follow up kill shot is possible so it is likely to come immediately every time.

BMKindoll · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:23:57 PM »

So am I understanding correctly from everyone that, single shot gun aside, that the actual round being fired itself would be adequate/effective at killing large dangerous African game?

Brandon

Grumulkin · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:17:10 PM »

Quote from: BMKindoll on December 02, 2009, 01:23:57 PM

So am I understanding correctly from everyone that, single shot gun aside, that the actual round being fired itself would be adequate/effective at killing large dangerous African game?

Brandon

Yes it would if by adequate you mean capable of. Remember hundreds of elephant were killed in days of yore by the humble 7X57 Mauser.

What I think is interesting is that various African countries have strict rules regarding minimum cartridges for the various animals and yet they permit going after them with pointed sticks.

There was another instance not to long ago on the program "Dangerous Game" if I remember correctly. A bow hunter was going after a hippo. He hit the hippo in the chest which didn't make it happy. The hippo came after them and he got another shot off quickly; right into the nose which didn't improve the hippo's disposition or even slow it down. Once again, the PH had to shoot the beast with his big gun.

JJHACK · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2009, 07:49:03 PM »

A .22 LR will kill everything that does not define adequate. Death is easy, crumpling effect is a different story.

Fred Bear shot a number of polar bears that were all shot with a rifle shortly after his arrow. He finally was able to get one stuck that ran away from them, rather then towards them. It died with just a single arrow. But it took a number of tries.

I'm a long time avid archery hunter. However I make no mistake that some animals are not well suited to archery. There may have been a time and a culture or society that could manage this effort and follow the wounded animal for a long time, or hunt much like the native Americans with a whole bunch of shots at one time from several archers. Recreational hunting today for a sportsman is not what it was hundreds of years ago for survival. Those folks did not have a 50,000 dollar trophy fee for elephant, and only a couple days to find it.

As far as the rifle in question. It could kill anything alive, but as far as practical, well Not for me. 1500fps is not even close to the kind of velocity I'm looking for. I love the diameter and bullet weight, but not at 1500fps. That load at 2000fps or more would be a much better cartridge. Sorry but I'm not convinced that 1500fps is sufficient. Look at the other African cartridges using 700 grain bullets. What speed are they going? Certainly much faster then 1500fps.

This starts to get into the same 45/70 silliness again. Use what you like, but as a Professional hunter this is not a DG rifle/cartridge that will meet the intent of the law, or the requirements most logical hunters would choose. I would not choose this if it were my hunt of a lifetime!

BMKindoll · « **Reply #8 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:25:52 AM »

Fair enough JJ. That was what I was wanting to know. Thanks for the opinion.

Brandon

45north · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:20:01 PM »

Mr. JJHACK,
I applaud you!!! A patient man you are.

Tonk · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:25:53 PM »

I personally don't believe anybody should go after dangerous game of any kind with a single shot rifle, even if there is a PH that would back you up with his bolt gun or double. If your going to hunt dangerous game than get yourself a proper rifle, that will ensure your safety and promote odds of the outcome in your favor. A strong Mauser control fed action is a good place to start.

In my eyes the act of archery hunting for dangerous game and being backed up by riflemen is not really archery hunting at all. As was mentioned the animal often as not, is killed or finished off by the riflemen. I would save the single shot rifle for plains game and the bow using arrow as well.

WL44 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2009, 01:02:18 AM »

I agree with a lot of this and also with the response of JJ.

That said, people have all sorts of aspirations and I pretty much figure you must go with what you want to do, subject to a few conditions. Set yourself up so as not to endanger others or force them to endanger themselves because of your stupidity or aspirations, beyond a level of reasonableness (now that's really subjective, but I figure anyone hunting DG potentially endagers others). Call it what it is and don't fool yourself about what you are doing. That is very most important and ties up with other threads in this specific forum about what you hunt where, high fence hunting, put and take hunting and hunting that's not really "hunting" etc.

BMKindoll · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2009, 06:19:35 AM »

Just for clarification, as I said before, the question was not if I should use a single shot rifle or not. The question was about the .500 magnum round that would would be GOING IN the single shot, or whatever else for that matter the round would fit in!!

From now on let's assume I am talking about a fictitious lever action .500 magnum or( which by the way I am HOPING someone will come out with sometime in the near future) or any type of repeater.

Again, the round, not the rifle.

And I am not saying you guys are wrong, because you have way more experience in this field than me, but I for some reason have a hard time believing that a 700 grain projectile traveling at 1500 fps, in let's say a lever action to make everybody happy

, would not be absolutely devastating to whatever it hit.

I guess I relate more to the "big and slow" way of thinking when it comes to projectiles.

Again, let me clarify, I AM NOT saying that I know more than anyone else or you all don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks a lot.

Brandon

JJHACK · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2009, 02:58:21 PM »

Let me put this into a bit of perspective for you. When the 458 win mag was introduced it was intended to mirror the 470 nitro express in a affordable bolt action rifle.

The original spec was 2050 fps with a 510 grain bullet. The bullets were made in both softs and solids.

During manufacture by Winchester the powder used was ball powder. With the heat in Africa and the highly compressed loads many of the bullets fired were less then 1800fps. Some of the shots had clumps and chunks of powder come out the barrel.

The outrage by the governments in Africa for the poorly loaded ammo by winchester was significant. The 458 was deemed an underpowered and pathetic cartridge by several countries including Zimbabwe.

The ammo issues were sorted out, re-engineered and eventually the 458 recovered with what is today a stellar reputation. During this pathetic period Jack Lott was mauled badly by a buffalo he shot with great shot placement using a 458 win mag. Dozens of people were killed and mangled by wounding elephant, rhino, hippo, and buffalo with the 458 win mag. This was the reason he developed the now well accepted powerhouse the 458 Lott. Same bullets, 400fps more velocity. See the trend here? more velocity!

That 458 win mag shot a bullet traveling somewhere between 1800 and 2000fps with the poor ammunition. Mike Lagrange reported that he saw these bullets sticking into the skulls of the elephants penetrating only one or two inches deep. ( Mike Lagrange has culled more elephants then anyone alive today over 6000. His book "ballistics in perspective is a brilliant read with factual info on all sorts of data collected from actual culling work, not theory)

So if you think that 1500fps is a suitable level of velocity then I wish you well with that. Several countries have a minimum FPE regulation so that firearm/load would not be legal. As I said before it will kill anything alive, but so will a 22 rimfire. It's the time between shot and dead that is a concern.

I cannot find any logic in the debate with the countries that have these species and have gone through 100 years of experience with the hunting of DG and set this standard. How could any arm chair American hunter question this? Yet the 45/70 crowd will argue this to the ends of the earth, and most have never shot anything bigger then a whitetail deer. Only a handful have ever stood 50 meters from an elephant on a bluff charge. Even the 458lott and the 500 Jeffery feel kinda pathetic in your hands with this in your face!

Another issue that comes to mind with a lever gun that shoots a 700 grain bullet 1500fps. Who is gonna test fire that and with how big a sand bag between the stock and the shoulder? Lever guns are .......... at least for me some of the most poorly designed firearms made to distribute recoil.

It's an interesting conversation as usual, but the end result is the same. It would not make my short list of options.

BMKindoll · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2009, 12:00:38 AM »

Don't get me wrong I agree with what you are saying. And if I ever had the opportunity to go on a hunt like that I would not use the round either. I was just curious.

What I guess I don't agree with is the insinuation that the round/cartridge in question is so far fetched as to compare to a .22 rimfire. That's a tad silly if you ask me.

I mean there are recorded accounts of folks killing DG with rifles firing projectiles smaller than that (grain count and diameter) at speeds not much faster than that at all. I mean I understand you don't agree with that either, but the fact of the matter is that it happened. And it was decisively successful.

Again, I understand what you're saying though and I thank you for the good explanation.

Brandon

JJHACK · « **Reply #15 on:** December 10, 2009, 04:11:50 AM »

And it was decisively successful.

By who's definition, where is this stated? what government allows this? What PH uses this for his choice, By all means name me a couple PH's that use these "decisively successful" options?

Decisively successful would seem to me that a reasonable percentage would be using these. I've never met a single one in the last 17 years I've been doing this.

Randomly successful would seem to be a more accurate statement.

BMKindoll · « **Reply #16 on:** December 10, 2009, 06:18:16 AM »

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp Fella used a .45-70. I'm sure you have seen this before. And the round that I was asking about, i.e. 500 S&W 700 Grains 1500FPS, goes 50 fps less with 160 more grains of weight. And on top of that the bullet is bigger around.

And see this is what is kind of silly now. We are now discussing, NOT the effectiveness/apparent lethality, of various rounds, but we are now all of a sudden discussing your interpretation of a phrase that I used. A phrase that is clear what it means, and clear what it stands for. And I don't see what "decisively successful" has anything to do with how many folks use it. I always thought the definition of how many people using something was "popular" or not. The phrase decisively successful means just that. It was decisive, meaning the outcome of the use of the cartridge, i.e. 45-70, clearly worked and worked well. And successful, meaning just that. It worked. I guess I don't see how that statement wasn't clear.

And again to be clear, I am not stating that the round in question, i.e 500 S&W is the "decisively successful" option. I said that.

I enjoy the discussion, and find the material very interesting, but if this is the road you wanna take this discussion down then I am gonna have to be done with it. I am in no way trying to be difficult or cause an argument. And I am definitely not going to have discussion about interpretation of things. That will never get anywhere.

Thanks again

Brandon

JJHACK · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2009, 12:49:01 PM »

Randy Garrett is a personal friend of mine. He supplied me with countless ammo during my tenure as the bear damage control specialist for the Washington Forest Protection Assoc. I tested ammo for him on several hundred Black bears!

Randy and I go way back in this business! What a recreational sportsman does with a lever gun under a controlled hunt, with one or several other PH's using legal backup is a long shot different then saying that the round in question is universally accepted as a decisive option.

If it were decisive you should be seeing a frequent use of this by professional hunters and the Parks game management professionals. On the contrary you will not find even one single person in a professional capacity using it for his and his clients safety.

When you can pay the entry fee to play in the game then you can use this gun to your hearts content. Until then it's only your theory contradicting my 17 years of first hand experience, added to the dozens of other professionals I work with that, have a combined level of experience that is somewhat impressive. You won't find a single one of them choosing this "decisive option" !

Your mileage may vary.

BMKindoll · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2009, 02:54:45 PM »

You might know more than everybody here. you make that clear. but it doesn't make the round any less effective. Just because it's not common place has nothing to do with whether it works or not.

Brandon

JJHACK · « **Reply #19 on:** December 10, 2009, 03:10:17 PM »

I defer to your experience and back ground I wish you well with your future big game and dangerous game hunting! I welcome your valued posts to help the others here who have been so mis-guided by my posts and attempts at helping them understand what I have seen in my career.

Just remember there will be those that ask you something and will not like the answer, at that point they will be critical of your opinion and taunt you about your experience, be strong, they eventually learn the truth, or continue on in their fantasy world.

calling4life · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:35:32 PM »

JJ, I have a question for you sir, or multiple questions.
Have you ever brought this issue to Randy??? If you two are personal friends, have you ever thought of asking him why on earth he clearly points to some of his rounds as being an answer for DG.

As a professional, if he is being deceptive, that puts the people that buy his rounds at risk, ultimately it is their choice to use the round, but when you look at his site, read the stories, you tend to come to the conclusion that yes, his 4570 ammunition is efficient dangerous game ammunition. At least that is how it reads to me, and apparently some others. This puts people in danger, again, our responsibility to do our research and be legal, but he puts up an impressive argument for his rounds.

Now given your experience, you seem to have a very firm grasp on the reality of the situation, I'd like to know if you've ever discussed it with Randy and asked him why he chooses to portray his ammo that way.

This isn't an argument, take this at face value, you seem to be firm in your opinion, but are friends with someone who is firm in his contrasting opinion as well, so I was simply wondering if you guys have discussed it and what conclusion was came to.

JJHACK · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2009, 06:17:21 PM »

There is a difference between marketing ammo that can kill DG eventually, and the choice of a professional which uses ammo that will crumple big game where it stands (without a CNS hit)

To drive forward with the notion that a lever gun is somehow capable to be used as a DG rifle for serious professionals is not realistic.

When the ammo and firearm become legal in all the DG countries then folks will stand up and take notice. But for now, it's not legal in even one country that I know of.

The African Game killed is more then likely on Private concessions, they can get exemptions from the public game laws which are enforced on Public lands and parks.

Randy makes a great product that has created a level of performance that has never been imagined or equalled for lever guns. But make no mistake, it's not legal for free ranging game in any country I know of from a lever gun.

When it can shoot 500 grain bullets at 2000 fps/ or 300 grain bullets at 2600fps or equal that level of energy (4500fpe) from some other load it will get my attention! until then it's not legal. The rifle and cartridge in question is probably somewhere around 25% below this level!

BMKindoll · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2009, 12:01:01 AM »

So a lever action gun should not be taken seriously?? Too Cowboyish?? See this is the silliness I just don't get.

I will agree to disagree.

Brandon

BMKindoll · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2009, 12:45:34 PM »

Brandon

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2009, 05:43:31 PM »

Give it a rest already didn't you agree to disagree?

BMKindoll · « **Reply #25 on:** December 13, 2009, 01:02:05 AM »

True, very true.

Brandon

Tonk · « **Reply #26 on:** December 13, 2009, 11:10:43 AM »

I would love to hunt the big tuskers and if I did, it would never be with one of my favorite blackbear guns, a Marlin 1895 45/70. Now being a cowboy at heart, I really like the lever guns and they are part of our nations heritage no doubt. However, when it comes to standing in front of a Cape Buffalo I want my model 70 Winchester bolt gun in the .470-Capstick caliber, going 2350fps, driving a 500 grain bullet.

Yesterday I watched on TV, (Tracks Across Africa) the effects of a 700 Nitro Express at well under 10 yards and it was amazing what that animal did and how fast that big tusker moved. The animal stopped in his tracks after the first shot struck his head and he looked like a reining quarter horse, that could turn on a dime and give you 8 cents change. This is what the big bull did after the the first shot missed the brain but had enough force and power to halt the beast!

Two very fast shots from the client and followed up by 2 shots from the PH Carter and Mr. Greg Boddington also put a couple into the animal on the run. I shiver to think what would have happend, if the clinet and others would have had 45/70's in there hands or even a 500 Smith & Wessson pistola. The bull would have run clean over the whole party before you could say Jackrabbit!

rex6666 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 14, 2009, 06:41:54 AM »

I have never hunted real dangerous game (other than women) i have stayed in
several Holiday Inns.
I do think the 45/70 and the 500 sw are capable of killing DG, BUT if i
am looking at him and he is looking at me, i don't want to wonder how long it
will take this well placed shot to take this animal. I want something in my hands
that will get his undivided attention and let him know he is going down, not
just hurt.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #28 on:** December 14, 2009, 08:18:30 AM »

Quote from: BMKindoll on December 11, 2009, 12:01:01 AM

So a lever action gun should not be taken seriously?? Too Cowboyish?? See this is the silliness I just don't get.

I will agree to disagree.

Brandon

In a few of the rags I read they talk about Africa. And the question of 45-70 lever guns comes up on a pretty regular basis.
After all the 45-70 can be loaded to the bottom end of 458 Win Mag and can fire out of the Marlin 1895 in actions made since 1972.
In some of the articles they talk about the 475 Turnbal (turnbul Sp?) as now being powerful enough for DG in a lever gun.
And while 45-70 can reach the bottom end of 458 Win Mag it is not 458 Win Mag DG load.
Have a number of people hunted DG with lesser rifles. Yep. Heck Wally Johnson talks about his kid's friend killing a Buff with a 22 Hornet and piling it up. I am sure many a buff has been killed with 303 Brit, and 7X57 mauser. Heck during the bush wars AK's were used.
Does 22 Hornet and 223 Kill deer, Yep. are there any better rounds out there for it. OH yea. I think the same goes for DG. And while it may seem to be a challange but as many have said if the guide is there and shoots, he has more than likely killed the animal.

efremtags · « **Reply #29 on:** December 14, 2009, 02:13:08 PM »

No 45/70 load ever approached within 75% of a 458WM. The best 45/70 loads approach 3700ftlbs. The 458 tops 5k.

I disagree that the 45-70 or 500sw can't kill DG, they have, there's ample evidence that both are capable. That does not make the DG stoppers.There's a difference between a capable hunting rifle and a reliable stopping caliber. I would not want a guide backing me with this level of power.

I have seen several of these Africa shows where the client/guide used between 577 - 700 NE. In all of them, whatever they shot still ran. Even the specific show mentioned had 3 shooters shooting the full gammut from 500 - 700 NE at elephant (6 shots) and the animal ran. I think the guides just liked to shoot the big guns, but theese big guns are mammoth compared to a 45/70 and still did not kil quick as lightning.