Author Topic: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...  (Read 618 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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"Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« on: December 01, 2009, 01:30:54 PM »
Former Capt. Michael Hoh, USMC, and former State Dept. rep in Afghanistan was just on CNN talking about the troop surge. He's opposed to it, and raised some thoughtful points: 1) Al Qaeda has been beaten to an ideology, and not so much an army. 2) What is happening in Afghanistan is a Civil War not an insurgency.

What do you think?

* I served with Capt. Hoh once upon a time, and I remember him to be a clear thinker.
held fast

Offline ken-wv.

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 03:28:56 PM »
how about, oboma make it a north and south,or divide it some how,north/south korea/north south viet.do goverments force that on other countrys?

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 03:40:40 PM »
1) Al Qaeda has been beaten to an ideology, and not so much an army.

Good point

Quote
2) What is happening in Afghanistan is a Civil War not an insurgency.

Who cares!?   ::)  The people who attacked us and/or want to attack us are there.  Find them, kill them and leave the rest of them to kill each other like they been doing for thousands of years...  :(
Richard
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 03:43:43 PM »
Funny you bring up north and south, we booted the Taliban and backed ... get this ... The Northern Alliance.  Will the Afghani South rise again and do we care? May affect the price of morphine.
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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 03:57:14 PM »
Tribes dozens if not hundreds of tribes all in their own little country. One kills the other over some real or percieved wrong going back 100 years. Others kill others just because that what they always have done.

Divide what? There is no north or south christ just 100 different regions control by this tribe or that. Build them up he says. drill all the wells you want plow all they fields that are not solid rock you can find. They will posion the wells mine the fields and just keep on killing one another for the next 100 years.

Stop the corruption of Karzi and set clear benchmarks..who in it the hell is he kidding. He simply does not know what he is doing. Give them democracy WHAT? They do not want it have absolutely any interest in what we think it wioll offer them. THEY DO NOT CARE!

Good lord we know who we need to kill lets go do it use any and all of those people that will help us do it. Think nothing about how corrupt they are are even if the are in the drug trade. Just go kill whoever is our enemy and join forces with those that will help us. Then get our butts out and let them live however they want and not give a hoot in hades if they do whatever.

Sure we have to make sure the Pakistanis do not lose control of their nukes we have to do whatever has to be done to make certain of that.
Take the gloves off get the bleeding heart News out of the region and go and do what needs to be done and get out.
If we stay we will suffer the same fate all others have suffered there.

so stupid so simple in his approach and just a damned fool. what could be expected from an organizer of union and locals to protest this or that. God Almighty this nation is in real trouble, big trouble. He should really be something like White House Social Director instead of President. He kisses up to this one bows down to that one apologizes to anyone for anything that they think America has done wrong. Simply unbelievable.
imagine George Patton or Eisenhower telling Adolf Hitler that they would be leaving on such and such a day. He would mass all his arty buried in the ground with the airports bracketed and wait for us to load up.

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 04:07:24 PM »
lost about half of that post in cyber space:

anyway  we told them 18 months jesus why did we not invite them to the stratagy rooms and let them hear it all. thats just so stupid it shows how stupid he is. we basicaly will have troops landing unloading putting up defenses and encampments and about the time they are ready we will load them back up and bring them home. has anyone ever seen or heaard of any commander telling his enemy and the world excactly what is strategy is. never not ever have i ever read or heard of that being done. about 3/4 of the chances of your winning any battle or series of battles depends on your enemy being caught off guard and never knowing what you are going to do next. honest to god i believe he should be charged for aidind the enemy.

Why did he wait to announce so long. it is much clearer to me now. this has started an uproar from all sides no doubt. the real reason i believe is to make it be the topic of every hour and take our attention away from health care. i believe he really believes they will pass something if healthcare is not the hourly disscussion of every News outlet.

well to all that wanted him, he never lied about his intentions so you got what you asked for as the old saying goes.

Offline KB21

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 04:20:48 PM »
What do you expect from this president?

To me, one of two things needs to be done.  You either unleash the full force of the United States military to win and win quickly, or you get out.  The fact is, these people are tribal.  They do not want a centralized government telling them what to do, and yet we are trying to force that on them.

IMO, we should get out and let them kill each other and quit trying to install and oppressive government that they do not want.  I didn't disagree with going into Afghanistan to kill Al Queda, but this has turned into something else.  Pay attention to history.  Russia tried this once, and they didn't win. 

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 04:32:54 PM »
KB21:

your right on the force a goverment on them. heck they want no part of it. get in and do not mold change or build a dang thing. just kill who needs to be killed that is our enemy. kill anyone that gets in our way. then get the heck out.

Offline Squib

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 09:14:24 PM »
TN- there is no insurgency.  if I was to walk around my neighborhood and shoot up some foreigners that had thoughts of raiding my block, I wouldn't be a killer, a monster, a terrorist, and definitely not an insurgent... more of an insurrectionist if any connotation of deviance or rebellion is used at all.  I always thought it was weird that pre-patrol briefs warned about bomb-making "insurgents" yet, whenever I saw torn up electronics and explosives rigged together, it was always in a family's couch or a kid's toy box.  there is no insurgency, just opportunistic and focused rage on an unwanted foreign presence.  russia was bordering on evil, doing atrocious things in the middle east, and the russians lost due to attrition.  if a large conventional force of a superpower communist nation singlemindedly assaults and fails then america the politically correct "guilty conscience" nation will fail.  afghanistan wore out those fagots  ;D  (fascism, totalitarianism, communism- they use the "fagot" as a symbol, look it up)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 01:03:17 AM »
A big part of the problem in such areas as Afghanistan and even Iraq and others is that our perceptions of a country does not match the perceptions of the folks who live there. They have no interest in or even understanding of a country and loyalty to such. They are muzlims and they are tribal misfits in a modern society. They are throw backs to the middle ages.

We need to leave them the hell alone to fight their little tribal wars and so long as they stay there and do that and don't come here and attack us we don't need to go there and attack them. If they do something that harms us them stomp the hell out of them and leave them to pick up the pieces. I'm not at all convinced that the Afghans or Iraqi's are our problem.

Our problem are the super rich elites who are controlling our politicians and tearing America apart at the seams.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 01:58:05 AM »
Since their civil war includes training grounds for terrorists that attack us and our allies, lets help them settle their civil war. Nuke'em. They act like 6 year olds argueing over a toy, lets be the bad parents, and punish them. Let everybody in that part of the world know we're getting sick and tired of their petty B.S. Either grow up and get along, or go to allah. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline beerbelly

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 02:58:30 AM »
GB they have attacked us on numerous occasions. The last being FT. Hood. They will continue to attack us until we destroy them. So far we have not had the will to do so.
                              Beerbally

Offline Graybeard

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2009, 03:18:38 AM »
They who? The Afghans? I think not. The Iraqi's? I think not.

Yes I agree that muzlims in general are a bad lot and eventually either they will exterminate all who are not muzlims or the rest of us must exterminate them. BUT I do not believe the muzlims are behind what's going on in the world today. They like us are mere puppets of the real enemy this cabal of super rich folks who are pulling all the strings behind the scenes while keeping their identity hidden.

I have no doubt some of the members of the cabal are muzlim by proclaimed faith but that isn't anything more than a way to stay in power in the country they call home since those countries are predominately muzlim and if these folks let their true nature be know to the masses there they would have their heads chopped off as surely and as quickly as they like to chop the head of non muzlims.

The cabal just wants us to pit group against group as it furthers their real agenda of a one world government controlled by the super rich with no input from the masses. Don't fall for their BS story lines. Yes muzlims are bad but they are not the real enemy and are being used by the real enemy as pawns and are not smart enough to realize it.

GB they have attacked us on numerous occasions. The last being FT. Hood. They will continue to attack us until we destroy them. So far we have not had the will to do so.
                              Beerbally


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline alsaqr

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2009, 03:45:29 AM »
Quote
A big part of the problem in such areas as Afghanistan and even Iraq and others is that our perceptions of a country does not match the perceptions of the folks who live there. They have no interest in or even understanding of a country and loyalty to such. They are muzlims and they are tribal misfits in a modern society. They are throw backs to the middle ages.

.................................

Our problem are the super rich elites who are controlling our politicians and tearing America apart at the seams.


Gray Beard's assesment of the situation is dead on.  Worked for many years in that part of the world trying to train Saudi and other troops.   You cannot train folks who cannot read their names in neon lights; over 80 percent of Saudi troops are illiterate.  Folks in a tribal society have absolutely no concept of a united country, much less a democracy where people actually elect their leaders.  They never think past family and tribe.  Infrequently, tribal coalitions are put together but they soon start to bicker and fight and the coalition dissolves with bitterness on all sides.

It does not matter if US troops stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for 100 years.  Both country's will dissolve into total civil war as soon as US troops leave.  There are three million Iraqi Sunnis in exile waiting for US troops to leave so they can come back to Iraq and wreak havoc, supported by Saudi Arabia.   

After 8 years of US troops dying and getting wounded, all the Karzai government has to show for it is total control of one province.  The Taliban operate at will in all the other Afghan provinces. 

BTW:  In 2004 Karzai established sharia law in Afghanistan.  As soon as the scumbag did that the US should have pulled out lock, stock and barrel.  I know a lot of troops who are serving in Afghanistan and I am concerned about them.  They are pawns in a game being run by the Wall St. fat cats.   

In the end we will not win this one.


   

Offline Squib

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Re: "Civil War" in Afghanistan ...
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2009, 08:35:59 PM »
while I appreciate being on the winning side (for now, if america does go down the pipes then we will all be discarded too), I don't like to be in the fight at all.... glad I'm not involved in a physical sense anymore but it still keeps me on edge.  the va calls it adjustment disorder- I have a personality disorder because I'm not a sheep anymore, I was a good guy when I wanted to go overseas and shoot people though... gotta love the hypocrisy.  alsaqr, are you a convert?  I'm curious about your prism (not disecting you, just your viewpoint).  if you'll divulge I'll listen......