Author Topic: Carry Gun in black bear country? (Read 6480 times)

jgrass5 · « **on:** December 02, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »

I'm not sure if I am in the right forum but here goes.

My brother deer hunts in Pa. After he fills his tag he walks unarmed in the woods driving deer to his fellow hunters. Two years in a row, while pushing deer he has come across black bear, big ones, and not afraid of him. He's crazy. I told him he needs to arm himself with a hand gun. Problem is, he's not that knowlable about hand guns. What cal.,type, barrel length, etc. I suggested a Ruger single six in at least 357 and 6 inches in lgth. Balance between cost, weight and stopping pwr. I know the bullets these day are pretty good for stopping critters. I would appreciate you thoughts.

Thank you,

JGrass

corbanzo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2009, 12:57:21 PM »

Whats the definition of a big bear down there?

A hot loaded .357 is a good black bear gun.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2009, 01:18:22 PM »

PA has some of the largest black bears in existence. They have 800 plus pound bears taken each season even tho it's only three days long and no baiting or dogs allowed. As anywhere aveage is average but big means BIG in PA.

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »

44 magnum for bear that run to 800 lbs. Either a S&W Mountain Gun or a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 4&5/8" bbl.

drdougrx · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:02:53 PM »

corbanzo · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:23:00 PM »

Bear that big, .44 at least, with a big, hard, cast bullet.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:26:01 PM »

Quote from: jgrass5 on December 02, 2009, 11:17:33 AM

I'm not sure if I am in the right forum but here goes.

My brother deer hunts in Pa. After he fills his tag he walks unarmed in the woods driving deer to his fellow hunters. Two years in a row, while pushing deer he has come across black bear, big ones, and not afraid of him. He's crazy. I told him he needs to arm himself with a hand gun. Problem is, he's not that knowlable about hand guns. What cal.,type, barrel length, etc. I suggested a Ruger single six in at least 357 and 6 inches in lgth. Balance between cost, weight and stopping pwr. I know the bullets these day are pretty good for stopping critters. I would appreciate you thoughts.

Thank you,

JGrass

IF YOU FIND A SINGLE SIX IN 357 MAG
I WILL BUY IT

corbanzo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:40:35 PM »

I got a pretty good drill... don't think the thin walls would do the pressure on those cast bullets though....

INresponse · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:00:54 PM »

I would start with considering a .44 Magnum for normal woods carry, but if I had 'experience' coming across big bear I would seriously consider a .460 S&W Magnum or .500 S&W Magnum. Any bear close is too close if they don't want you around or might be interested in having you for dinner.

FourBee · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:30:27 PM »

Quote

he walks unarmed in the woods

If you are unarmed and you know you're in Bear country, it is said you should wear bright clothing, wear a whistle around your neck, and even wear little bells on your shoes. you also should learn to identify bear scat. The scat of the black bear contains berries and insects parts. The scat of the grizzly bear contain bright cloth, whistles, and bells.

TommyD · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:42:36 PM »

If you are not a handloader, go with the 44 mag. Lots of ammo options there.

I load my own and wouldn't feel undergunned with Ruger .45 Colt loaded with 300 or 320 grain cast bullets and a stout load of H110. These will completely penetrate almost anything in the lower 48.

In Grizzly country though, I would want a long gun. Pistols just aren't up to the biggest of bears.

Tom

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2009, 07:01:34 PM »

44 Mag or Hot 45 Colt in a Ruger Blackhwak.

COR · « **Reply #12 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:38:49 AM »

Let's be clear on something here. Not every bear in Pa goes 800lbs, in fact most are at about the 200lb mark. In 25 years of hunting Pa I have never had a black bear do anything but walk the other way... except when wounded. I have seen one "DEAD bear" charge and honestly if the hunter didn't already have his rifle on that bear no handgun in leather would have helped him becaue of the speed that bear covered 10yds. Regardless, I don't even know of a bear death in Pa history and certainly not recent history (not saying it doesn't exist). My carry gun is usually a Bearcat with some hot loaded 22LR HP's and I am still here. I will admit that I do hunt bear with a 44mag and a 44 special.

I enjoy seeing bear in the wild and although I have tried to get one for 23 years during season I am still unsuccessful even after last week. Pa has a very challenging set of bear regulations and as was said a very short season.

Your brother will be fine with any .357 out there if that's what he likes...if it is just for a black bear incident he will probably never take it out of his holster anyway. Feral dogs can be a much more dangerous animal and I have dealt with them on a few occassions. Now they do get my attention as they are very unpredictable and have a real lack of respect for humans.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:51:57 AM »

If true 800 lb anything that runs fast , claws or bites and it may wish to eat me is on the agenda . I think i would get the 454 Ruger super Redhawk with bbl cut even with the frame ( a factory model). I have little doubt a 44 mag. will kill anything that walks the earth with good shot placement. But will a 44mag. being shot from a suprised nervous human STOP an 800 lb. charging bear at bad breath range fast enough to keep the shooter from getting hurt ? Truth is the 44 might or might not which is same for the 454 . But a close shot with a 454 might be enough where a 44 might not . Its all about how much insurance you think you need .

45-70.gov · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:40:52 AM »

Quote from: FourBee on December 02, 2009, 05:30:27 PM

Quote
he walks unarmed in the woods

If you are unarmed and you know you are........

why would any one go any where un-armed?

i have always ask this question with out getting an answer
on every one of these '' is xyz mag enough for bear??''

a short barrel looses velocity....and we need all the power we can get

BUT HOW DOES A BEAR REACT TO MUZZLE BLAST AT SHORT RANGE??

I carry a 2 inch 5 shot 357 FLASH/BANG grenade
it startles folks at the range and they have earglugs in
a bear has more sinsitive hearing and never been that close to gunfire
just watch an un-seasoned dog

S.B. · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2009, 02:12:08 AM »

Quote from: jgrass5 on December 02, 2009, 11:17:33 AM

I'm not sure if I am in the right forum but here goes.

My brother deer hunts in Pa. After he fills his tag he walks unarmed in the woods driving deer to his fellow hunters. Two years in a row, while pushing deer he has come across black bear, big ones, and not afraid of him. He's crazy. I told him he needs to arm himself with a hand gun. Problem is, he's not that knowlable about hand guns. What cal.,type, barrel length, etc. I suggested a Ruger single six in at least 357 and 6 inches in lgth. Balance between cost, weight and stopping pwr. I know the bullets these day are pretty good for stopping critters. I would appreciate you thoughts.

Thank you,

JGrass

Get this, in Illinois after filling your tag your illegal if have any firearm on your person? This just from a state that has Chicago in it(where you need personal protection a lot). Oh, by the way we have the Bears in Chicago, also but, their a good bunch of guys.
Steve

S.B. · « **Reply #16 on:** December 04, 2009, 02:16:15 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on December 02, 2009, 01:18:22 PM

PA has some of the largest black bears in existence. They have 800 plus pound bears taken each season even tho it's only three days long and no baiting or dogs allowed. As anywhere aveage is average but big means BIG in PA.

I know coastal black bears in the Carolinas get that big but, never heard of any in Pa.? 800 pounds is a lot of bear!
Steve

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:14:32 AM »

Yes it is a lot of bear and I did not and do not intend to imply that such bears are common place in PA or anywhere but each year such bears are taken there. Folks in PA are kinda proud of the fact that some of the heaviest bears around are taken there each season.

Just as anywhere most you'll see are young bears and a 200 pounder is far more likely than a 400+ pounder but roaming the PA hillsides are bears that big. The truly big ones are rare everywhere these days.

I have a friend who lives up there and they have bears roaming thru their farm each year. He often sends me photos of them some times taken right from his deck. He has a neighbor lady who is his wife's aunt that has her bird feeders and hummingbird feeders raided by bears regularly. She has gotten to where she takes them in at night to prevent that.

They roam around mostly unarmed all the time as well. I keep telling him that at least when the bears are most actively raiding into their yards he should carry a big bore revolver. I guess when you are around them regularly you tend to get lax about them.

jgrass5 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:20:31 AM »

Thank you everyone for the replies. I got the msg., somethying pretty Big! That's what I needed, I will foward all the info to him. I'll post what he gets.

Thank you

JGrass

jgrass5 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:34:15 AM »

Sorry 45-70.gov, meant Ruger Black Hawk, not single six.

thanks

JGrass

S.B. · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:45:40 AM »

Yea, I looked up Pa.s DNR and there are articles stating they had one taken in recent years that weighed 735 pounds and average is from 120-250 pounds.
Steve

Tallwalker · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:25:11 AM »

One of the few successful stories about bear defense with a handgun in Alaska against brown bears involves a woman, and a .44 mag double action that she really trained with, both point shooting, and drawing from the holster. If I remember correctly, the clipboard she dropped while backing up, and drawing the handgun was 10 feet from the dead bear she had shot in the brain. Training, and control is much more important in defense situations than caliber, and I would expect that a .44 Mag would be plenty, and I would also carry a .44 Special, or .45 Colt with Keith loads though Black bears certainly have been shot with .45 Colt factory ammo.

corbanzo · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:25:01 PM »

I would put reaction time in there too, I guess that could come from practice though.

Funny story.

Just for fun, because my friends and I were never into the cowboy thing too much, we would do the quick draw shoot the watermelon game, hit it most of the time pretty quick. When I started working on the slope, I started to play a lot of ping pong. Being locked in a cage when you are not working... you kind of have to find stuff to do... ping pong and working out... or gain 400 pounds. I have always had pretty good reflexes, athletic, wrestler through high school and college, yadda yadda. But it wasn't until ping pong that I started to realize the potential of aiming your reflexes, being able to hit a target, only seeing it out of the corner of your eye, and knowing where it is going to be when your hand gets there.

Anywho, turns out that it really helped the quick draw.

So if you want to practice for bear defense, play ping pong.

But really if you can get any piece of hard lead over 1000fps you are going to hurt something if you hit it.

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #23 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:33:58 PM »

Nothing wrong with a 4 inch double action 357 Magnum loaded with a good 180 grain hard cast load for woods carry. A 4 inch double action 44 Magnum loaded with a 250 grain Keith load would be even better. Make sure to stay away from JHP loads designed for SD in what ever gun you pick. My favorite woods walking revolver for bear protection is a Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt loaded with a 255 grain Keith load. The blued 4 5/8 inch Ruger only weighs 36 oz. It is 8 oz. lighter than the 44 Magnum Super Blackhawk with the same length barrel. If I was going to look at new guns I would take a good look at the S&W Night Guard line.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2009, 01:09:22 AM »

totaly agree with you on this. Ive lived around michigan bears and have hunted them for decades and have never heard of anyone being attacked by one other then dog hunters. Your best defense with a black bear is to just let him be. If one did decide to come for me though id feel pretty stupid relying on a 357. Make mine a 44 with cast bullets anyway. Ive seen 357s and even 41s with jacketed bullets fail miserably on black bear. There not hard to kill but have a much thicker layer of hair and fat then a deer. But like you i dont carry around here figureing on getting attacked by a bear. To me that would be about like wearing a bullet proof vest to walmart to go Christmas shooping. But if dog hunting where i may have to protect myself or a dog id say start with a 44 at the bottom end of the scale.

Quote from: COR on December 03, 2009, 01:38:49 AM

Let's be clear on something here. Not every bear in Pa goes 800lbs, in fact most are at about the 200lb mark. In 25 years of hunting Pa I have never had a black bear do anything but walk the other way... except when wounded. I have seen one "DEAD bear" charge and honestly if the hunter didn't already have his rifle on that bear no handgun in leather would have helped him becaue of the speed that bear covered 10yds. Regardless, I don't even know of a bear death in Pa history and certainly not recent history (not saying it doesn't exist). My carry gun is usually a Bearcat with some hot loaded 22LR HP's and I am still here. I will admit that I do hunt bear with a 44mag and a 44 special.

I enjoy seeing bear in the wild and although I have tried to get one for 23 years during season I am still unsuccessful even after last week. Pa has a very challenging set of bear regulations and as was said a very short season.

Your brother will be fine with any .357 out there if that's what he likes...if it is just for a black bear incident he will probably never take it out of his holster anyway. Feral dogs can be a much more dangerous animal and I have dealt with them on a few occassions. Now they do get my attention as they are very unpredictable and have a real lack of respect for humans.

Old Fart · « **Reply #25 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:17:57 AM »

If I was going to purchase a handgun with this in mind I would go fo a 44mag.
Less will probably do just fine, but why buy less when you might need more?
I am a big fan of the hunting potential of 357mag, but givin a choice I usually go bigger.

buck460XVR · « **Reply #26 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:56:35 AM »

Not knowing the regs in PA, I assume if your brother can legally carry a handgun in the woods after he fills his tag, he could also carry his hunting rifle. This would make more sense to me rather than for him to invest hundreds of dollars in a handgun for the few times when this situation arises.....and unless he takes the time to become proficient with it, it will be nuttin' but excess baggage, and a false sense of security. Any of us that uses a handgun for hunting, know how difficult it is to hit a moving target(even the size of a bear) even with extensive practice. Wounding a bear will only piss him off and make him more prone to attack.

Living in Wisconsin, I have grown up and hunted around bears all of my 55 years. I have been walking in the woods in the dark going to and from bow stands since I was 12 years old. I have crossed the paths of bears numerous times and altho it always makes me catch my breath, I'm still more nervous of my neighbor's Rottweiler when it's loose. Just bumped a good size bear off a deer carcass last week carrying only my X-Frame. He was nuttin' but a blur going the other way. I figure your brother feels the same way about black bears as I do, whereas the threat from them is so minimal, that altho one must be concerned, the odds of a true attack from one not already wounded or harassed is less than the threat of being shot from another member of your hunting party.

That said....there is never a bad excuse for gettin' a new gun.

benny · « **Reply #27 on:** December 05, 2009, 08:03:54 AM »

i carried my 41 on opening day of bear here in PA and i didn't feel that i needed a "44"... as graybeard said, we have black bears in our state that outweigh the average interior grizzly. i have carried the gun loaded with 250gr hard cast loads a few places including ak and the only time i felt undergunned was on the coast in ak around the brown bears. there is NO handgun that would make me feel comfortable around those things...

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #28 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:18:47 AM »

ive shot enough large animals with handguns to know that you arent going to stop a large bear a charging range in time with any handgun without hitting it in the brain or spine. If a 600 lb bear was comming for me id feel more confortable with a good first aid kit and burrial insurance then i would with any handgun and that includes my 500 linebaughs.

sixshot · « **Reply #29 on:** December 05, 2009, 01:55:56 PM »

  I've seen some photo's of those PA bears from last years hunt & some of them were giants, I"m talking really big bears, as Graybeard stated, some can go 800lbs, thats not average but they are there.
  If you've never seen how fast a bear can move you are in for a thrill....or maybe the scare of your life, they are absolutely a blurr when they take off. If you are unfortunate enough to have one zero in on you believe me, you will want something you can HIT with, I see all the time of these huge handguns for bear protection & I'd like to see the man that can get off 2 shots at a charging bear from 20 yds in the less than 2 seconds he's going to have before everything goes dark! I've said many times, you have to be able to hit your target as they are not impressed with shots in the dirt.
  You need the biggest gun you can shoot well & it must be loaded with tough ammo, most, not all of the jacketed stuff will fail unless its like the Norma FMJ, etc. You want tough bullets for tough game!
  If your limit is a 357 then use it, if your limit is a 44 or bigger, thats even better but you gotta hit them!
  My son's & I have taken 17 bears & I've been in on several others, not a huge number but it does give you some idea of what you're up against, they aren't terribly tough to kill unless you mess up but their speed can be very intimidating.

Record book black bear taken in 08 by my oldest son, this is one of 3 bears we took that year. This one is probably 400+ lbs & measured 7' 9".

Dick