45-70 Ammo?

[w8n4rut]

Got a wild boar hunt planned for late January, and have a questions in regards to the best ammo for a wild boar. First, my set up is a 1895 GS with an 18" barrel. I will be handloading my own ammo, and am looking for suggestions. I am currently using a Sierra 300gr. JHP with 64 grains of IMR3031. Although this round seems to be fairly accurate, I am concerned with the load being possibly too hot for the application, and that I will not get the desired devastating performance that the 45-70 is known for. Does any one have any "real life" experience with the 45-70 against the extremely tough European Wild Boar. Also being considered is the Hornandy LEVERevolution ammo, and was wondering if anyone had wild boar experience using this ammo. 

[HL]

I am using 300gr. Rem. HP's in my 45-70, loaded to 1800 fps. It dropped 3 150+ pound hogs last weekend. All dropped like a safe landed on them.

It's a mid to high range trapdoor load, but very effective and pleasant to shoot.

[Coyote Hunter]

Speer 300g Uni-Cor (UCHP) would be a good choice.  The HP is more of a dimple than a big hollow.

The 350g Speer FP bullets are a bit mor edifficult to load and require somewhat higher velocities (they were designed for the .458 Win  Mag), but they shoot great in my Marlin.

My preferred hunting bullet is a 350g North Fork.

Honestly, though, any 300-350g FP bullet will do the job, as will anything heavier.  Don't overlook hardcast - a 420g-460g with a wide meplat is devastating.

Your concerns about the Sierra 300g JHP are shared by me - I would not use a bullet with a big HP nose.

[Swampman]

Why waste time with light bullets?

[swordfish]

Why waste time with light bullets?

Why not?
They will all work just fine. You can drop a hog with a 30-30 easy enough, so use what ever you want in the 45-70, from experience, the 405's tend to blast straight through big hogs anyway.

[Swampman]

Which is exactly what you want.  The Remington bullet is perfect for this sort of work.

[swordfish]

Which is exactly what you want.  The Remington bullet is perfect for this sort of work.

IMO  Having the bullet pass clean through is not what I want.
The best case scenario for me is for the bullet to expend all its energy in the game. If the bullet passes clean through, this goal is not reached, thus the concept of bullet types like hollow-points. The mushrooming effect of the HP bullet allows the bullet to expand, and expend more energy in the game. But as Swamp is says, the 405’s will kill ‘em just as dead. I’ve lung shot 200 lb. + hogs with 405's and have had to track them 30 yds through heavy scrub before finding them. If they have a lot of fat on them the blood trails can get very lite because it plugs up the entry and exit wound. If you are taking head shots (best when meat hunting, but not for trophy hunts) none of this matters, final result is Bang-Flop with any bullet type or weight through a 45-70.
This is just an opinion. Opinions will vary.

[Swampman]

I want a blood trail & two holes to let air in and blood out.  Hogs rarely leave a blood trail without an exit hole.  I try to shoot through both front shoulders if possible.

[swordfish]

I want a blood trail & two holes to let air in and blood out.  Hogs rarely leave a blood trail without an exit hole.  I try to shoot through both front shoulders if possible.

Understandable, good bullet choice for that shot placement.

Swamp, slightly off topic, but do you ever try neck shots? When meat hunting hogs, I tend more towards head and neck shots, when the opportunity allows. 405's are good spine shatterers, and there is no tracking required.

[w8n4rut]

WOW, Thanks for all the advice and the various opinions. Has anyone had any experience with the Hornady LEVERevolution 45-70 rounds on wild boar?

[HL]

Everything I have shot with the rem 300gr Hp, had complete pass through. For whitetail and average size hogs I don't see the need to go to heavier bullets at this time. I also prefer the lighter recoil of the 300's over the 405's.

[Swampman]

The 300 grain bullets are more painful to shoot than the 405s when driven at the same velocity.

[HL]

 

[Swampman]

I'd try to explain why but it's a waste of time.

[HL]

This is pretty self explanatory. Scientific tests to show recoil in ftlbs for various cartridges.


Cartridge (Wb@MV)   Rifle Weight   Recoil energy   Recoil velocity
45-70 (300 at 1800)   7.0   23.9   14.8
.45-70 (405 at 1330)   7.5   18.7   12.7
                                                                                                


Firearm mass
kg (lb)   Cartridge and Projectile mass
g (gr)   Velocity
m/s (ft/s)   Powder charge
g (gr)   Free recoil
            J   (ft•lbf)
Shilo Sharps 1874/ 5.4 (12)   .45-70 Government/25.9 (400)   543 (1783)   3.6 (56)   56   41
Weatherby Mark V/ 4.6 (10.1)   .460 Weatherby Magnum/32.4 (500)
762 (2500)   8.1 (125)   156   115
A-Square Hannibal/ 5.4 (12)   .500 A-Square/38.9 (600)
762 (2500)   7.3 (113)   156   115
M82 Barrett rifle/ 14 (31)   .50BMG/41.9 (647)
902 (2960)   15.2 (235)   127   97
A-Square Hannibal/ 6.8 (15)   .577 Tyrannosaur/48.6 (750)
753 (2470)   10.4 (160)   206   152


I didn't get it formatted correctly so here goes:

300gr bullet at 1800 fps has a recoil ftlbs of 23.9.

400 bullet at 1783 fps has a recoil of 41 ftlbs.

300gr bullet has 17 ftlbs less recoil than the 400gr at or near the same velocity.

that's the last I will bother, since physics don't lie.

[Swampman]

You missed something.  Everyone does.

[swordfish]

The 300 grain bullets are more painful to shoot than the 405s when driven at the same velocity.

I know what you mean.  Ones a push and the other is a kick.

[Swampman]

John Barsness calls it the "rocket effect."  Mass times velocity isn't all that effects recoil.

[brianscott12]

You missed something.  Everyone does.

Then please explain.

[aimhard]

I'd like to hear this also. LOL

[Swampman]

I did

[Coyote Hunter]

The 300 grain bullets are more painful to shoot than the 405s when driven at the same velocity.

No, they  are not.  I shoot 300g, 350g and 405g bullets.  I can launch the 300 and 350g bullets condiderably faster than the 405's and still have lower recoil.

[no guns here]

I do hunt the European Wild Boar... right here in Germany.  They aren't THAT tough.  The look mean and tough with that black, wiry hair though... but inside they are still just PIGS.  I shoot a .308 with 150gr Power Points and they drop dead just fine.  A German friend of mine shoots an 1895 SS with factory Remmy boolits and routinely drops them easily on running shots.  I have another friend that shoots them at night with a Grendel and they usually drop in place.  Pick a good game bullet, put it in the right place and you won't have any trouble.  Of course I know another guy that uses a .375 H&H and usually has to shoot two or three times to get one on the ground, one miss, one bad hit and a killing shot...

For me... in my gun with the loads I have, I would rather shoot my 420gr hard lead bullets than the 300's.  I honestly can't remember the bullet type or the load since they were loaded for me by a gunsmith about 12 years ago.  He made up 200 of each for me.  I shoot the factory loads for fun and hunt with the ones he loaded for me.  I know the hard cast lead ones are 420gr but I'm not sure about the 300's, they MAY be 305's but...

Anyway, the 305's kick much faster and sharper than 420's do... The 420's may have more recoil but it is more manageable for me than the lighter bullets.


NGH


NGH

[Swampman]

The 300 grain bullets are more painful to shoot than the 405s when driven at the same velocity.

No, they  are not.  I shoot 300g, 350g and 405g bullets.  I can launch the 300 and 350g bullets condiderably faster than the 405's and still have lower recoil.

Yes they are.....the lighter bullets are much more painful at the same velocity.  I've been shooting the .45-70 since the late 1970s.  I hate the 300 grain bullets they are inefficent.

[efremtags]

W84NRUT

back to your question,

bore are not all that tough. I have seen a few killed pretty quickly with small stuff on he order of 22 mag up to 40S&W pistol. Depends on the hunt style. If hunting with dogs, yoiu get VERY close, so head shots make a lot of sense. They drop and you ruin 0 meat. We're talkin 10 feet is the norm.

If you hunt n stalk without dogs, than anything that will kill a deer will kill a boar. Except for freak bread in captivity hogs, most run under 200 lbs, in some areas 300 - 400 are possible, but not necessarily common.

The 325 Lever Ammo is designed for big game and controlled expansion. It is superior to 300gr hollow points in penetration. The 300gr tend to over expand (except for the nosler ammo loaded by Winchster, but getting hard to find). You will have 0 trouble on any hog that walks. Keep your shots low and forward as their vitals run a bit contrary to deer which are higher and further back. A good whitetail shot can be a poor hog shot.

I have used 44 mag and bow successfully on 4 hog kills. I have witnessed over a dozen shot with 50 cal. round ball, 12ga slug, 22 mag, 223, 243, 40S&W with different friend I have hunted with. The 44 with hardcasts blew through broadside on a 125 lb sow, and dropped her on the spot, and a head shot from 25 yds, broke a jaw and shoulder on a modest sized 150lb bore (big for area in FL).

I use 405 GR REM SP in my 45-70 handloads (1 bear to it's credit) and it works great at 1700 FPS. Going slow may be easy to shoot in terms of recoil, but if recoil is an issue, there are better calibers with low recoil for the job than underloaded 45-70. Yes they will kill, but they do not offer good trajectory or terminal ballistics (IE poor wound channel, little blood, long track job), unless you break major bone or spine. I have shot deer with hardcast in the lungs (missed leg) and a few hundred yard track job is always in order. You do not want to loose  hog to the swamp as this si typicaly where you find them (except for spots like CA or TX)

[brianscott12]

 I've been shooting the .45-70 since the late 1970s.  I hate the 300 grain bullets they are inefficent.

You may hate the 300 grain bullet and that is fine but to make a statement that the 300 is inefficient is nonsense. Does this look inefficient? This deer was taken at 75yds with a 300 grainer handload. Looks like it did its job to me.

[Terbltim]

[/quote]
Yes they are.....the lighter bullets are much more painful at the same velocity.  I've been shooting the .45-70 since the late 1970s.  I hate the 300 grain bullets they are inefficent.
[/quote]

 
Swampman, I can't resist poking you about this.
I too, have been shooting the 45/70 [Marlin] since the late 70s [and reloading all along] and find your position on this to be astounding.
I can't make any sense of your claim, [here] that the 300gr bullets are more "painful" than the 405s at the same velocity.
When asked to explain, you said you "did"...though you did not.
A brief mention of "the rocket effect" and the remark that mass times velocity not being all that effects recoil does not equal an explanation.
Your remark flies in the face of known physics as well as a whole lot of personal experiences, (not just my own.)

The claimed velocity for Remington Factory 300gr ammo is approximately 1800 fps, (at least it was for many years,) while the "factory" loading for the 405s seldom exceeds 1400 fps. Even at the lesser velocity the 405s always "felt" like a heavier load to me.
My own personal experience is that 405gr Remington JSP bullets fired at a velocity of 1800 fps and more [in the Marlin rifle] earn the description of "brutal" when talking about recoil.

I've shot both bullets as fast as 2100 fps for years from the Marlin rifle.
I eventually decided that both were too soft for velocities over 1900 fps, (my opinion only based on many repeated performances.)
As for the Remington 300gr JHP being inefficient, (?!?) my question is "for what?"
At its factory loaded velocity and upwards to about 1950 fps I've never seen a bullet hammer deer to the ground more effectively no matter what caliber you care to name. The 405 cannot compare in any way, except that it hammers my shoulder much more while doing less to the deer than the 300gr bullet does.
I personally think the 300gr bullet is a bit too "soft" for big pigs but have only shot small ones (under 200lbs) with good hits so I don't think I can make a strong argument.
I also think both those bullets are "soft" when velocities go over 1900 fps.

All this aside, I'd ask that you take the time to carefully explain the outrageous statement that the 300gr bullet is more "painful" than the 405 at same (similar?) velocities.
Help us out with that one, please. 

[deernhog]

I have shot hog,dog and deer with the .45-70 and can not for the life of me see a reason to shoot the 405 grn at 1800 fps. That would have to be on the verge of detached retina or nerve damage. Lead cast 405's running about 1450fps or the factory 405 jsp have dropped everything I have shot and I can shoot them all day on the ground or from a tree stand. I would hunt anything on the continent with them.

[oldrifter]

The 300 gr Nosler fn partition stays together on deer and 2300fps ,  deer was 130 yd and it took both shoulders and the exit hole was quarter size.  IMR 4198 works good.  I am using a win high wall and a Knight KP1 , both are good for the pressure.
Good hunting
oldrifter
<><

[Swampman]

By inefficent, I mean that the gasses & unburnt powder increase recoil without accomplishing anything they are too light and kick too much to be worth fooling with.

The Remington 405 can't be beat on soft skinned animals.