45-70 Ammo?

[Terbltim]

Hey Deernhog,
I have to say I agree with you, (sort of.)
What got me experimenting with velocities at first was trying to find a velocity for the 405-JSP that would allow me to use the same sight-setting as with the 300gr-JHP.
By the time I'd accomplished that I was just following the "Gee-wiz" trail to see what could be done with these bullets and this gun.
I agree that anything on our continent could be taken with judicious application of these bullets.
I've also seen both bullets get stopped by a common whitetail deer. I'd have lost money betting otherwise but saw it myself, (once with the 405 at about 1600-fps and several times with the 300 at a variety of vels.)
I've satisfied myself that they [both bullets] are quite soft and cannot be counted on to penetrate the way hard flat-nose cast bullets will.
When penetration is the name of the game I won't use the Remington bullets. Not an issue around here, I admit.

Swamp,
I see your point on inefficiency if shooting stoked-up 300gr loads and I think I agree a little. Could you be referring to "muzzle-whip"?
Sort of like the nasty muzzle-whip and blast from shooting light-weight bullets at full power in the 44, 454 or 475 handguns as compared to using heavier bullets?
There is a huge difference between the character of heavy vs light bullets in all these guns. Inefficient might easily describe it.
The actual recoil is heavier with heavier bullets but the muzzle-whip, blast & flash are horrendous with lighter bullets... when stoking up the power.
Now that you've got me thinking on it, I had that nasty sensation with the 300gr bullet when they got around 2100-fps or more. The Remington bullets became unstable at those velocities so I didn't waste much time or powder on them after running some experiments.
I think the Remington 300gr JHPs are just too soft for high-speed shooting and are best at or around the factory loading.
I [sort of] agree with your assessment of the 405 on soft-skinned game too but I'll stand my ground on the 300gr JHP at 1800-fps (factory loading) on whitetail deer. That seems to be a good blend of everything in my rifle...for deer.

[Coyote Hunter]

Why waste time with light bullets?

Shooting 300g bullets in a .45-70 is hardly a waste of time and to insist that it is demonstrates considerable ignorance.

Only an ignorant person  would insist that when shooting a 300g and 405g bullet at the same velocity that the 300g load would cause greater recoil, as you continue to assert, so your foolish contentions with regard to recoil are no surprise.

[bilmac]

I don't have a problem with 300 grainers in general, but I shot a few critters with the 300 gr Sierra and felt that they were not penetrating well. Since I didn't think they were working well, I quit using them after 3 or 4 animals, so I can't say I had a lot of experience with them. I switched to 350 Hornaday RNs and have never looked back.

[Coyote Hunter]

John Barsness calls it the "rocket effect."  Mass times velocity isn't all that effects recoil.

What Barsness calls the “rocket effect” has to do with the gases from the burning powder escaping the muzzle.  The more powder being burned and the greater the escape velocity the greater the effect.

When pushing a 300g and 405g bullet to the same velocity, the 405g load will have the greater “rocket effect” due to the larger powder charge and/or higher pressures needed to propel the bullet to that velocity.

[Coyote Hunter]

The 300 grain bullets are more painful to shoot than the 405s when driven at the same velocity.

No, they  are not.  I shoot 300g, 350g and 405g bullets.  I can launch the 300 and 350g bullets considerably faster than the 405's and still have lower recoil.

Yes they are.....the lighter bullets are much more painful at the same velocity.  I've been shooting the .45-70 since the late 1970s.  I hate the 300 grain bullets they are inefficent.

Physics does not take a “time out” where the .45-70 is concerned.  Push a 300g bullet to 1800fps with 40g powder in a 7.5 pound rifle and you run about 22.4 foot-pounds recoil with a recoil velocity of 13.9 feet per second.  Using the same rifle and powder charge, a 405g bullet at the same velocity would generate 34.8 foot-pounds of recoil at a velocity of 17.3 feet per second.  That is significantly (55%) more recoil with a noticeably (24%) faster impulse with the 405g bullet.
 
I don’t have a clue what you think is “inefficient, but I run 300g hardcast at 1167fps for plinking loads.  Recoil is about 7 foot-pounds in my 22” barreled Marlin 1895 and the powder charge is 13.5g.  Those loads will penetrate 12 “Family Size” (1 gallon) Minute Maid Orange Juice jugs filled with water and keep on going.  I call that pretty dang efficient and we shoot a lot of them.

My top 300g Speer UCHP loads run 2247fps using 54.5g H4198, generating 36.6 foot-pounds recoil at 17.7 feet per second.  By contrast my top 405g loads run 1982fps using 45.0g H4198 to generate 45.0 foot-pounds recoil with a recoil velocity of 19.7 feet per second.  I guess in your world 45.0fp @ 19.7fps is less than 36.6fp @ 17.7fps?

Do you live in a world of soft pastels and men in white coats?

[Swampman]

I'm aware of physics.  I also know that the lighter bullets are much more painful to shoot at the same velocity.  It's more complicated than mass times velocity.

[swordfish]

Acceleration to max velocity. 
kick -v- push

[Mad Dog]

Not going to get into the math of loads.  Back to the original question.  I have used 300 gr. nosler partition bullets for the majority of my big game hunting.  I've taken hogs, bear, and 7 head of plains game, with the 45-70 and 300 gr. nosler partitions both in handloads and win. factory loads.  Here is a link to the post about Africa.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,151073.0.html

All my shots have been pass throughs except for zebra, and 1 shot on a kudu.  I use H4198, and get about 1950 fps. out of my guide gun.  Sadly, nosler has seen fit to drop this excellent bullet, but you might still find some.  I think going to the barnes 300 gr. bullet would be a good alternative, although I haven't shot any, myself.

The 325 gr. hornady leverevolution, in the factory load is also an excellent load, and is very accurate in my guide gun.  Killed a bear with them, no issues.  If I go back to Texas, next year, to hunt hogs, that may be my load, so I can save the 300 gr. noslers for other game.  Hogs ain't that tough.  JMHO.

Mad Dog

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm aware of physics.  I also know that the lighter bullets are much more painful to shoot at the same velocity.  It's more complicated than mass times velocity.

You are correct, recoil is more complicated than “mass times velocity”.  To my knowledge, however, no one has suggested that it was that simple – so your comment is something of a red herring.

Nevertheless, recoil calculations ARE very simple.  The variables include bullet weight, powder charge, muzzle velocity and the weight of the firearm.  “Felt recoil” is more complicated because other factors come into play, including the design of the firearm (primarily stock design including any recoil pad, if any) and other factors such as additional shoulder padding, etc.  These additional factors can be eliminated by using the same firearm for calculation purposes, knowing that felt recoil will have a direct relationship to real recoil when doing so.

While it is true that a 300g load can generate more recoil than a 405g load, the 300g load must be driven much faster in order to generate the additional recoil.

At least in the real world.  Things may be different in the fantasy world between your ears.

[Swampman]

All things being equal the 300 grain bullets are much more painful to shoot.  They produce a very sharp recoil pulse with little muzzle rise.  The heavier bullets produce a push with more muzzle rise.  Less energy is transferd to the shooter.  Been at this a long time.

[Coyote Hunter]

All things being equal the 300 grain bullets are much more painful to shoot.  They produce a very sharp recoil pulse with little muzzle rise.  The heavier bullets produce a push with more muzzle rise.  Less energy is transferd to the shooter.  Been at this a long time.

When fired at the same velocity, no, they do not.  I've only been at this since 2002 but I've fired enough of both bullet types at simolar velocities to know you're full of crap.

[Swampman]

Hummm I owned 2 .45-70s before 1980.  That's all I gotta say.  Thousands of rounds down range said otherwise.

[Terbltim]

Gee Swampman,
It seems like you're a voice in the wilderness on this subject.
I doubt if you can find another human that would agree with your unqualified insistence that a lighter bullet (approximately 30% lighter) could/would produce a more "painful" experience than the heavier bullet at similar velocities.
Saying its so does not make it so.
It seems that most who are disagreeing with you have plenty of knowledge and experience to back their claims.
Claiming that you have so much experience [30+ years?] on the subject doesn't make a credible argument by itself.
If everyone else has had a different [opposite] experience [from yours] on the same thing it seems there is something really different about your experiences that you've left out.
You've made reasonable posts around the board on many subjects and seem knowledgeable but this one is pretty far afield without a better explanation than the one you're offering.
Saying "that's how it was for me" is completely acceptable but saying your experience makes a rule is, well, you can see the reaction that claim is having here.
No one can accept it because it doesn't make sense to any of us.
If you want to make your declaration into a rule it has to be able to withstand reasonable scrutiny.
So far you're not very convincing and just raising doubts and questions about your knowledge & experience.
It might be time to call it a day.

[Swampman]

You have to realize I don't care if I'm the only one that backs my claim.  I'm use to swimming against the stream.  I always have.

[no guns here]

swampy isn't the only one that feels this way...  See my post back on page one.

I'm not going to argue with the math, the numbers don't lie.  However, numbers aren't always the ONLY way to interpret things.  I don't LIKE the recoil impulse from the lighter bullets travelling faster... it hurts more.  The heavier bullets (at a still respectable 1600-1700 fps) are MUCH more comfortable than the 300's at 1900-2000 fps.  Ohhh, the heavier bullets move me around more but the lighter ones do indeed hurt more.  How do I describe this???  I guess I can't anymore than I have.


It really pains me sometimes to agree with swampy... but this time I have to.


NGH

[Coyote Hunter]

swampy isn't the only one that feels this way...  See my post back on page one.

I'm not going to argue with the math, the numbers don't lie.  However, numbers aren't always the ONLY way to interpret things.  I don't LIKE the recoil impulse from the lighter bullets travelling faster... it hurts more.  The heavier bullets (at a still respectable 1600-1700 fps) are MUCH more comfortable than the 300's at 1900-2000 fps.  Ohhh, the heavier bullets move me around more but the lighter ones do indeed hurt more.  How do I describe this???  I guess I can't anymore than I have.

It really pains me sometimes to agree with swampy... but this time I have to.

NGH

NGH =
You are not agreeing with swampgas – you are comparing 300g loads running faster than the 405’s, he is comparing them at the same velocity.

Take the following loads for comparison:

300g @ 1627fps, 54.5g Varget, 7.5lb Marlin 1895 (my load), 23.4fp recoil @ 14.2fps
400g @ 1655fps, 50.0g Varget, 7.5lb Marlin 1895 (Hodgdon load), 34.6fp recoil @ 17.2fps

With these loads the 405g load runs 48% more recoil at 21% greater recoil velocity.
Even if you bump the 300g bullet up from 1627fps to 1655fps it is still under 24.0fp recoil.

Or try these:
300g @ 2002fps, 57.0g H322, 7.5lb Marlin 1895 (Hodgdon load), 31.9fp recoil @ 16.5fps
400g @ 2002fps, 50.5g H4198, 7.5lb Marlin 1895 (Hodgdon load), 46.4fp recoil @ 20.0fps

With these loads the 405g load runs 45% greater recoil at 21% greater recoil velocity.

Only in swampy’s fantasy world do the 405’s generate less recoil at the same velocity.  In the real world they generate considerably more recoil with a faster recoil velocity.

[Swampman]

Just reporting my actual field experience.  I can't  comment on something out of a magazine or advertising brochure.

[Terbltim]

Ooookay,
I think I see whats going on with this subject.
It is a matter of different personal perceptions of specific situations.
NGH makes the point perfectly. (Thanks for helping, with a clear explanation.)
Swampman may have mis-spoken in describing his experiences [and the perceptions he got from them] as if it were a rule that all should accept.
My own perceptions of my experiences seemed to fall more in line with the scientific explanations as did [apparently] those of Coyote Hunter and others.
Thus, we sought clarity and none was forthcoming because the whole thing was a matter of Swampy's perceptions of the physics, not the actual physics, and we were thinking of them both as the same things.
In short, we've been talking about different things.
This type of basic communication error is the root cause of most disputes regardless of topic.
I guess we've run the subject to ground now that we know what we're not talking about.

I'm gonna go get some coffee.

 

[crash87]

You say you handload, I have had extrmley great success with cast bullets, my goto has always been a 400 LFN gc from an LBT mold, cast from wheel weights, both aircooled and waterquenched. You can buy these if you don't cast. The extrmley tough Boar you are hoping to deal with, sadly I can't help you out as far as the effectivness of the 45/70 with, apparently shoulder shattering 300's or 22 rimfire like recoil of the 405's. But, I have taken them with a 44mag and 250 gr cast bullets, again LBT LFN gc. Complete pass thru as usual, not a very long blood trail to follow as they are with out exception within sight when expired. The 45/70 has but one bear and a few deer to it's credit. I am told that my 72 vintage Marlin is capable of 1800fps +, but 1600 seems to work, so you see velocity is only but one criteria to effectiveness. If you want penetration I'd seriously consider a wider meplat on a hardcast 18-20 bhn bullet, I'd also steer clear of H.P. bullets on anything but Deer, as I have found them to be somewhat inconsistant at Higher velocities. And, it seems hunters/handloader's today don't match the velocity to the bullet, but would rather ring out every last fps out of ALL bullets.

Just reporting my actual field experience.  I can't  comment on something out of a magazine or advertising brochure.

Hummm I owned 2 .45-70s before 1980.  That's all I gotta say.  Thousands of rounds down range said otherwise.

O.K. Swampman, what is it field experience or range, big difference in my book.

You missed something.  Everyone does.

Then please explain.

There seems to be a lot of comments given by swampman that others, including myself, would like for him to explain, But he doesn't.... or simply can't. Swimming upstream is gallant, but getting pulled down by the current is down right embarrassing. CRASH87

[Empty Quiver]

Okay, Swampman is on to something here. I don't have the years of experience or piles of chrony data, but I do have a 300 mag and a 45/70. These guns are argueably the same in the recoil dept as far as numbers are concerned. They shoot quite differently, the 45/70 rocks you back, the 300 punches you...painfully. You want Mike Tyson to push you or punch you? Same measurable force, might even be twelve times greater force but I'll take the push, thank you. The amount of time the force is spread over is important to the feel. Argueing over instrument readings not feel here two different arguements about the same subject.

Defending the Swampman, what has the world come to, somehow I feel soiled by all this.

[petemi]

If you guys want to see what a European/Russian boar looks like, go to www.bearmountainquest.com  These are NOT 150-200 lb. pigs.....try 5 times that much, and ya aint gonna stop them with a .22 magnum or a .223.

Pete

[no guns here]

A 120 kg boar gets a lot of attention on our hunts here in Germany.  Yep there ARE some monsters that will go 175 kg or so but they are few and far between.  Haven't seen anything in the 200 kg range or higher.  Supposedly there are some in Czech and eastern Europe.

[bilmac]

My uncle was in Europe in WW-II. He used to tell about being wounded and the boars coming around and eating the dead before they found him. 

[deernhog]

If you guys want to see what a European/Russian boar looks like, go to www.bearmountainquest.com  These are NOT 150-200 lb. pigs.....try 5 times that much, and ya aint gonna stop them with a .22 magnum or a .223.

Pete

Looks like a canned hunt for a bunch rich urban one timers.

[calling4life]

Okay, Swampman is on to something here. I don't have the years of experience or piles of chrony data, but I do have a 300 mag and a 45/70. These guns are argueably the same in the recoil dept as far as numbers are concerned. They shoot quite differently, the 45/70 rocks you back, the 300 punches you...painfully. You want Mike Tyson to push you or punch you? Same measurable force, might even be twelve times greater force but I'll take the push, thank you. The amount of time the force is spread over is important to the feel. Argueing over instrument readings not feel here two different arguements about the same subject.

Defending the Swampman, what has the world come to, somehow I feel soiled by all this.

My buddy has a 300 rem ultra mag, we went out sighting in our guns ( I have the 1895 45/70) first thing he did after shooting 3 bullets out of my gun was turn and say "This thing kicks a bit more then mine doesn't it"  I said yes, it really seems to.  I shot his rifle and after shooting mine it really felt like it recoiled less, very noticeably.  I don't know the stats on them, this is just feel to me, and obviously him.

We were shooting the leverrevolutions 325gr out of my gun.  150 grain remingtons out of his.  Big difference in bullets, you'd find a big dif. in velocity as well.

I've owned and shot 7mm mags and 300 rem. short action ultra mags as well, seems like these, after a while, may sting your shoulder a bit, but the 45/70 after noticeably fewer rounds tends to rock you to your core.  It is an impressive kicker, I like it.   

I've only shot federal fusion 300gr and the hornady 325s out of mine so far, so I wouldn't know about perceived recoil of these vs the heavier rounds. 

[petemi]

If you guys want to see what a European/Russian boar looks like, go to www.bearmountainquest.com  These are NOT 150-200 lb. pigs.....try 5 times that much, and ya aint gonna stop them with a .22 magnum or a .223.

Pete

Looks like a canned hunt for a bunch rich urban one timers.

Yeah, I suppose it is, but it doesn't discount the potential size of the beast.  

If I were "lucky" enough to draw an elk tag here in Michigan, It would cost me as much as their least expensive hunt.  The tag, permission to hunt private land, guide, room and board for 3 or 4 days, processing, etc. would be more than I could afford; and that's a public hunt.

Their hunt really isn't any different than shooting pheasant on a shooting preserve.....it's just a bigger bird.

Pete

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm aware of physics.  I also know that the lighter bullets are much more painful to shoot at the same velocity.  ...

All things being equal the 300 grain bullets are much more painful to shoot.  They produce a very sharp recoil pulse with little muzzle rise.  The heavier bullets produce a push with more muzzle rise.  Less energy is transferd to the shooter.  Been at this a long time.

Okay, Swampman is on to something here. I don't have the years of experience or piles of chrony data, but I do have a 300 mag and a 45/70. These guns are argueably the same in the recoil dept as far as numbers are concerned. They shoot quite differently, the 45/70 rocks you back, the 300 punches you...painfully. You want Mike Tyson to push you or punch you? Same measurable force, might even be twelve times greater force but I'll take the push, thank you. The amount of time the force is spread over is important to the feel. Argueing over instrument readings not feel here two different arguements about the same subject.

Defending the Swampman, what has the world come to, somehow I feel soiled by all this.

Swampman may be “on” something, but he is not on “to” something - except a flight of fantasy.  He clearly believes that “All things being equal “ (read same rifle, same velocity, etc.) that the 300g bullets are “much more painful to shoot”.  That is just so much horse manure – as any physicist or person with a lick of sense and a wee bit of experience can tell you.

As to the .300WM and .45-70 comparison, I have both.  My .300WM runs about 8.3 pounds with the scope on, the .45-70 runs about 7.5 with no scope.  My .45-70 loads run from an incredibly mild 7 foot-pounds recoil (300g @ 1167fps) to a pretty rough 48 foot-pounds recoil (460g @ 1812fps).  One of my hunting loads uses a Remington 405g bullet at 1982fps run 45 foot-pounds while my Speer 300g loads at 2247fps run 36.5 foot-pounds.  By contrast, my .300 WM loads using a 180g bullet at 3038fps run about 29.3 foot-pounds recoil.

If you are shooting Factory Remington 405g loads (1330fps nominal) and comparing them to your .300 WM, you are correct, the Remington loads would feel like they recoil less – because they do, generating only about 20 foot-pounds of recoil depending on the actual powder charge used.  The factory Remington 300g loads (1810fps nominal) generate slightly higher levels of recoil but are still in the area of 22 foot-pounds.  Both are well below normal .300 WM recoil levels.

   

[Dixie Dude]

What would be the best all round bullet for everything?  405 gr? 

[swordfish]

What would be the best all round bullet for everything?  405 gr?  

If you could only choose one, for Big Game, I would say they would work fine.

[Coyote Hunter]

What would be the best all round bullet for everything?  405 gr?  

It certainly would not be my choice.  

If DG is included, I would go with a 460g to 540g hardcast with a wide meplat.

If DG is NOT included I would go with a 350g A-Frame or North Fork (and did - I use the North Fork).

If deer is the largest game I would go with a 300g Speer UCHP.