Author Topic: Hey Loothy! Splain something to me! (About the republicans and Afghanistan) (Read 3529 times)

Dee · « **Reply #30 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:36:21 AM »

Quote from: magooch on December 04, 2009, 03:52:00 AM

There is the little detail about the Taliban allowing al Qaeda to exist and train in Afghanistan when they (the Taliban) were running that $h1thole. They were given the opportunity to give up al Qaeda, but they refused. I guess we should have just walked away and said, Oh, okay.

The United States put the Taliban in power by supplying them weaponry to defeat the Soviet Union. All this is historical fact. It is an endless circle, and GB is right, about the Saudis. It is amazing the Americans continue to act like they don't get it on this issue.

Squib · « **Reply #31 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:54:59 AM »

no dee, you and me don't get it

america can do no wrong, patriots follow with blind loyalty, not an aspiration to do right even if it means straying from the collective
DUH!

I tried just about an hour ago.. you're tagged in now!

Dee · « **Reply #32 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:28:48 AM »

You mean it's my turn to debate Swampy? Not a chance! Swampy's a button pusher. Tomorrow he may completely change horses, while denying his own posts.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:47:30 AM »

Quote from: Dee on December 05, 2009, 06:28:48 AM

You mean it's my turn to debate Swampy? Not a chance!

It's not a question of debating him. The real question is can Swampy debate any subject?

Graybeard · « **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:32:39 AM »

He doesn't have to. Remember his famous phrase? "I don't think, I know". Now if he'd left the last part off I could believe that. He is the self appointed fountain of knowledge in this world.

Swampman · « **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:37:18 AM »

Quote from: Cabin4 on December 05, 2009, 06:47:30 AM

Quote from: Dee on December 05, 2009, 06:28:48 AM
You mean it's my turn to debate Swampy? Not a chance!

It's not a question of debating him. The real question is can Swampy debate any subject?

I've never lost yet.

Squib · « **Reply #36 on:** December 05, 2009, 10:02:17 AM »

alright, we've all got our opinions and ideology

the question is obedience/collectivism- I don't feel the need to follow "the pack" just because they have all the answers, and if I feel my pack is wrong then I'm lone wolf pronto... some people draw strength/identity/purpose from the collective. I'm not one of them. I like about 9/10ths of what Dee says but I'm still gonna argue with him for an hour if we disagree (we have before), I side with TM7 half the time but won't call him a nut or a genius I just debate him... I'm here to learn and spread my own opinions too (yeah, I've got my own stories to sell...) not to be a jerk. looks like me and swampman got some crap going.. so back to the thread's intended point now please

afghanistan and the reasons americans are going to occupy it?

?

Swampman · « **Reply #37 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:00:05 AM »

We have never occupied a country yet and we won't start now.

Squib · « **Reply #38 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:48:51 AM »

american occupation isn't totalitarian... marines and soldiers don't run their department of motor vehicles and write speeding tickets, americans don't get appointed to governorship over each province... okay america doesn't have a system like rome did but american infantry patrol the streets 24/7 and establish a curfew---- people can be shot just for walking down the street at night after curfew, seems like an occupation to me. where's the line for occupation vs peace-keeping swampman?

Swampman · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2009, 12:00:14 PM »

As soon as they can keep the goons under control we'll leave. We want to leave. We can't afford to stay.

Squib · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:14:39 PM »

it sounds nice... I'm just worried that the goons are anyone not siding with the elite, just like here except they still need our votes so they won't go too far. it's voting by force over there. I never said they weren't bad guys but I know I felt like a goon everytime I raided a house- personally I never had anyone take a shot at me after going in their house, NEVER. I did see people freak out and cry.. and as a "boot" I didn't understand why I shouldn't have been doing it, but I knew they were scared and I felt sorry for them. now I feel sorry for them and I feel more sorry for the troops doing that stuff now. those young guys often think being a man means just doing whatever the military role models tell them to do. if they're told to terrorize innocent people in the hopes of catching a few "terrorists" then they'll do it, also get enough people worked up to be the next terrorists, and possibly feel like terrorists... that's what happened to me. you can hate me for bashing it but at least consider it please- who's the one invading someone else's house??? I'll tell you that it didn't make me a big bad marine either, it made me a villain to innocent families. I don't hate muslim arabs enough to excuse that behavior- but I did it because I thought it was how to get the bad guys. I think the only one I found was myself (I didn't know it at the time of course).

Dee · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:43:30 PM »

Ever notice Swampy says just enough to get at least a paragraph response outta someone, and then he'll say somethin else that may or may not make sense, and get two or three paragraphs outta the same guy. He's usually able to accomplish this with no more than one to two sentences.

Squib · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:57:23 PM »

did you have any cop moments like that dee, being the bad guy but thinking you were the good guy

sin doesn't wash off like blood and mud (or poop, or motor oil, or ketchup!)

Dee · « **Reply #43 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:31:11 PM »

Squib, if your talkin about kickin doors, no. I never typed a search warrant that I didn't find what I was lookin for. I always checked and rechecked my sources (informants) and if my gut caused me to be uncomfortable I didn't do the warrant.
I have disciplined officers for using too much force, and a few times for not using enough. I treated everyone like I wanted to be treated, and honestly did my best every day.
I have sat hours on a call out when my guys were wore out, and wanted to breach the door, and I told'em that, as long as everyone was still talkin, and not shootin, I'd let'em talk. 99.9% of the time I was lucky and everyone walked out with a few bumps and bruises.
I've seen root canals with shotguns, seen blue jeans turned to confetti with the owner inside, and picked up train accidents in small cardboard boxes. I've seen folks so messed up their families couldn't id them, and I've stood on porches at 3 in the morning ringin the door bell, and dreding the door opening.
I've felt bad, and I have felt the absolute hopeless feeling associated with a suicide, and I've stood at the side of a fallen officer and wondered why the lid on his coffin was open when it shouldn't have been.
But felt like the bad guy? Never!
I have many times felt like the "only" guy. And many times I was.
You did what you did, because you were told to do it. That's what soldiers do, just like many times that's what cops do. I signed up. You signed up. Just shut the door, and don't open it up any more than necessary.
I have an uncle whom in WWII was in on the invasion of the Philippines. He has 2 Purple Hearts, and seven Bronze Stars. He's 85 years old, was a Baptist Preacher in his later years. He isn't bitter. I have a 1st Cousin that I grew up with. He was a Marine in Vietnam. He had three helicopters shot out from under him. He came home and raised a family, and is happy, but disabled.
We all put these things behind us. They changed us, but they didn't ruin our lives.
As far as sin not washing off? Yes it does. Christ saw to that, long before you were born. But you have to forgive yourself first, and let him do the rest. And I did say "Let Him do the rest".

Squib · « **Reply #44 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:35:10 PM »

thanks. I was just thinking about the morality of going overseas with the crusader mentality, especially with questionable motives within the hierarchy of our government. the advice and opinion still hold true though.

Dee · « **Reply #45 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:48:48 PM »

Squib, you signed on to a government that you trusted, and then found out they couldn't be trusted. I won't even pretend to agree with either of these two wars, because I don't. Afganistan could have been handled in my opinion by carpet bombing the training camps. Iraq should have never happened. Saudi Arabia was the cuprit in 911.
Your realized what it actually was, and you got away from it. Be glad your still walking, and learn from it.

Squib · « **Reply #46 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:01:45 PM »

I wish the public thought that way and got the troops out (what would the politicians do with the military if not overseas though? waste money on big training ops probably)

pcking78 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:32:54 PM »

So Squib, I can shut my mouth, huh?

I did not insult you, your opinion, or your service. I simply wanted to mention the honorable service of one I knew personally. I did not ask you to pity him, I never would, that would be viewing him as a victim instead of a hero. Obviously he served a lot more honorably than you and your fellow soldiers according to what you are telling us here. And know, I have not served. I do have several family members and friends who have/are serving. And I will mention their honorable service whenever anyone, even a former soldier, trys to paint all of them with the same broad brush.
And TM7, I respect your being against the war. And yes, there were many eyewitness accounts of what happened in my friends case in Iraq, so I am aware that he was not hit by friendly fire. And yes, I do think that is what happened on 9-11. Do you think our government could successfully pull off this stunt when they can't even interrogate prisoners at Gitmo without every detail, real and imagined, being plastered all over the NY times??? And would a government that was evil and strong enought to make 9-11 an "inside job" really allow goofy web sites to sell asinine bumper stickers that said, for the world to see "9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB". I have no higher opinion of the govt. than you guys do. I'm libertarian through and through, I just don't like the govt. because it is inept and corrupt, not because I feel that there is some mass conspiracy.
However, I respect your opinion and that of GB. I would love to research these things more and try to see things from ya'lls perspective. As far as the war, I think you may be right about not starting them to begin with. However, I seem to be more on swampman's side as far as the present time. As long as we are there, I am going to support our troops 100%. And while I can't speak to everything, I will tell of the honorable people that I know. Even if it bothers those who didn't serve so honorably.

Swampman · « **Reply #48 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:57:54 PM »

Traitors make me ill.

Squib · « **Reply #49 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:02:01 PM »

it's not about the troops, it's about the politicians... politicians direct the pawns, and the pawns are everyone but the politicians and rich/elite.

following orders isn't necessarily honorable, remember that.

Swampman · « **Reply #50 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:18:41 PM »

Being silly doesn't command respect. Heros are rarely big talkers. That's why I said something fishy about these post.

Squib · « **Reply #51 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:28:35 PM »

it seems "fishy" to me when americans go after people that go after americans- in their nation

if the seals went and killed 1,000 people overseas that plotted 9/11 then high-five and reload for more-
but going after someone that strung up some contractors in a foreign nation- not so cool to me. I'm not happy that the contractors died horribly, but I'm not upset either. The seals did their jobs and caught the guy... why they're being charged for abuse is beyond me. I'm pretty sure the guy will be tortured later on anyways. As for honorable service- all infantry stomp around in the streets and people's houses unless they're stuck on guard duty on a base or doing MSG. His battalion/platoon didn't because he wasn't infantry- so where's the big chest-thumping pride coming from? Do you know? Ask an actual soldier what he thinks about a guy that's not in a combat MOS of any kind--- I bet you'll think he's a bigger jerk than me... just find one and ask.

Swampman · « **Reply #52 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:37:17 AM »

Quote from: Squib on December 05, 2009, 06:28:35 PM

it seems "fishy" to me when americans go after people that go after americans- in their nation

if the seals went and killed 1,000 people overseas that plotted 9/11 then high-five and reload for more-
but going after someone that strung up some contractors in a foreign nation- not so cool to me. I'm not happy that the contractors died horribly, but I'm not upset either. The seals did their jobs and caught the guy... why they're being charged for abuse is beyond me. I'm pretty sure the guy will be tortured later on anyways. As for honorable service- all infantry stomp around in the streets and people's houses unless they're stuck on guard duty on a base or doing MSG. His battalion/platoon didn't because he wasn't infantry- so where's the big chest-thumping pride coming from? Do you know? Ask an actual soldier what he thinks about a guy that's not in a combat MOS of any kind--- I bet you'll think he's a bigger jerk than me... just find one and ask.

Ask a guy that isn't in branch of service that accepts anybody with a pulse what he thinks of the other branches and you'll end up in a fist fight. Giving folks with a 60 IQ weapons isn't very wise.

Squib · « **Reply #53 on:** December 06, 2009, 05:12:31 AM »

swampman ?

below 80 is retarded by strict definition so who's 60 and still able to operate a machine? you gotta be specific man

Graybeard · « **Reply #54 on:** December 06, 2009, 09:41:00 AM »

He has no specifics just off the wall BS that he has no clue about, remember his famous quote: "I don't think". He sure don't.

beerbelly · « **Reply #55 on:** December 06, 2009, 10:12:12 AM »

Squib, I told you before, I don't believe you were ever a Marine and I was. You posted a copy of a receipt for pay, that you could pick up any where.
Post a copy of your DD214. It will not only show when you were in but also where you were serving and when. If you were in country it will show it. If you were wounded it will show it.
You just don't ring true as a Marine .
Beerbelly

pcking78 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:36:40 PM »

Actually Squib, I never said that my friend wasn't on patrol, doing raids and sniffing out insurgents. I merely said he wasn't "kicking people around". In fact he was infantry. Do you care to opine anymore about something you don't know and someone who died in service to his country?? My point is, I've heard from his fellow troops what kind of good was done there, the relationships and connections that were fostered between his platoon and the Iraqi's in that area. They did far more to earn Iraqi support than they did to inspire insurgency. We are now seeing the results of that effort in the way that Iraq has become much more calm and peaceful in recent months.
My basic point is this, you commented that if you lived there you'd shoot american troops too. I am saying most over there are not insurgents, but are caught in the middle.
Regardless, I am not saying the war is justified, but if I lived under a tyrannical regime that could stone my wife in the street for showing her face and not let my daughter go to school or drive a car. Or in Saddam's case would throw me in prison and send females in my family to the rape rooms if I dared to protest against Saddam's joke of an election; if I lived in that situation, I sure as hell wouldn't shoot at the people who came to get rid of those leaders and tried to show me how to have a say in my own government.
TM7-- I appreciate the civility with which you get your point across. However, I feel you and I are bound to disagree. If there was a "grand deception", then Great Britain, the democrats, Bush, the entire U.N. and Saddam's top generals were all part of it. Again, not saying that going over there was the best decision, but at the time the majority of our elected leaders were in favor of it. And I refuse to believe that our pathetic leaders could organize the 9-11 attacks.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #57 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:43:16 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 05, 2009, 05:57:54 PM

Traitors make me ill.

Traitors are those that violate our constitution.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #58 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:46:12 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 05, 2009, 09:37:18 AM

Quote from: Cabin4 on December 05, 2009, 06:47:30 AM
Quote from: Dee on December 05, 2009, 06:28:48 AM
You mean it's my turn to debate Swampy? Not a chance!

It's not a question of debating him. The real question is can Swampy debate any subject?

I've never lost yet.

Ignorance really can carry some self reassuring attributes.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #59 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:48:08 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on December 06, 2009, 03:37:17 AM

Giving folks with a 60 IQ weapons isn't very wise.

Self incrimination at it's finest.