Hey Loothy! Splain something to me! (About the republicans and Afghanistan)

[Cabin4]

swampman ?

 you gotta be specific man

Squib,

That simply is not going to happen. Don't waste to much energy trying to debate with him. You'll find yourself shoveling information out, without much coming back in return. The pattern of behavior with him has never changed. Consistency in this area is his only reoccurring quality.

[pcking78]

  Tell me this, did our government also organize the attacks on differnent embassies around the world?  How about the bombing on the USS cole?  How about the terrorists' attacks in Madrid?  The attacks were carried out by Saudi's.  Osama is a Saudi himself, remember??  However, their nationality does not change the fact that their base of operations was in Afghanistan where they trained and were openly supported by the Taliban war lords. I guess I'm just a skeptic, TM7, but to me, sometimes a spade is just a spade; and this would have been impossible to carry out without someone finding solid proof.  Especially if it would make Bush look bad, probably the most hated man in the mainstream media.
   They say that the pentagon attack was staged, then security film was released that showed the plane.  They said the buildings were rigged with explosives, then they did tests to show that the intense heat of burning jet fuel burned through the insulation and destroyed the structural integrity of the steel. They said the war was for oil, then the largest oil contracts went to China.  There are no leaked memos, no credible witness, and no solid motive.  Other than that, it would be a pretty solid case.  

[Cabin4]

Why are these people becoming terrorists and attacking us? This is the first question we should ask ourselves. There is an answer and it is based on our actions. If we change those actions, I'll bet they will eventually stop attacking us. Incedentially, the change in actions we should take will help align us with our constitution. Seems like a win win.

[powderman]

Cabin 4. The Godless ones attack us because they have been taught to hate us and are trained to kill us. The only way they will stop attacking us is if they kill us all, or we reject Jesus Christ and join satans disciples, islam. When they can't kill us, they kill their own kind. Killing is important to them, doesn't really matter who they kill, as long as they kill. POWDERMAN. 

[Squib]

powderman our government won't even secure our borders... so you know all out bombing ain't gonna happen.  the government doesn't want the US to destroy them, only subvert them.  they are being used more than most know- on either side.  they're so caught up in Jihad that they don't see it though.  perhaps if the US would back off, then common sense would return to some?  I know it's a far-fetched idea but crazy/evil/extremist or not, no one won't fight if backed into a corner and scared- no one.

[Cabin4]

Cabin 4. The Godless ones attack us because they have been taught to hate us and are trained to kill us. The only way they will stop attacking us is if they kill us all, or we reject Jesus Christ and join satans disciples, islam. When they can't kill us, they kill their own kind. Killing is important to them, doesn't really matter who they kill, as long as they kill. POWDERMAN. 

Powderman, Why have they been taught to hate us?

[Squib]

I had a good long talk at the gym today, talked to a radio host about the deception at the upper eschelons of western society.  the enemies of that are the muslims: they hate jews, are violently opposed to interest/banking/debt/credit due to their religion, are operating without conforming to western ideals, have oil money to stay out of it and still prosper, and cannot be easily corrupted by money.  also they absolutely will not let a foreigner subvert their religious institutions to the cause of "progressivism" because they'll kill their own family for choosing shia or sunni or whatever else if it's not the denomination they were born into.  I don't think they're great people but I see how a super-rich family of meticulous puppeteer jews would absolutely hate them and try to use economics and bribery to direct as much grief as possibe their way.  Hey if I was a "red shield", I'd do it too.  It doesn't make Muslims innocent, but it does make sense.. if it's the truth then it means the muslims aren't the ones to blame for perpetuating the whole thing.  Also, I never learned arabic to read the quran- most people just go off what they hear too I suspect.  Remember that Hitler and Europe in general was quite alright with the Jews being eradicated till enough of them "disappeared" that Hitler started eyeing his next enemies..... there was a reason for all of that hatred and most of it in the world hasn't been muslim.

[Redtail1949]

pcking78

right on i am with you.

[Squib]

it's irrelevant what the facts say (seriously botched, ineffective leadership at all levels, or sacrifice of expendable people), you're just gonna get told you're not a real patriot/american/conservative/veteran if you do anything but claim to be proud of the troops... that's the shield politicians use to great effect BECAUSE IT WORKS!  remember also- that when people get all worked up and angry because a loved one died in the fighting overseas post 9/11, it's righteous, but if a muslim overseas goes on the jihad because a relative got killed it's terrorism.  that isn't hypocrisy at all, it's justified    Strange that I get called out for stating my opinion about military enlisted being used- I use myself as an example and I'm called a fraud.... by a guy that wasn't there but knows because he was in the corps!  Go with the crowd like a lemming or be labeled anti-american.  Call into question the motivation of the military and be labeled anti-troop?  Question other young guys getting disabled for life by IEDs and it's anti-american.  total military brainwashing... being labeled less of a man for questioning anything instead of being a motivated lemming, though most infantry that actually see blood must question it (but can't say it or be ridiculed).  makes me wonder what vets actually saw all the carnage and still scream about being so "proud to serve".  anyone that is "proud to serve" needs to be specific.  same for people that are proud of their friends and family- WHAT ARE YOU PROUD OF?  Backbone, balls, courage- the vets had it before they went in too.  are you proud of their actions?  do you know what they did?  do you realize that questioning the machine isn't the same as degrading the troops- or are you an idiot?   

TM7, we're singing to the choir (cacophony).

[pcking78]

   Wow, it amazes me the degree to which some will go to deny that some soldiers are doing good. 
      1. I never blindly defended the decision to go to war, in fact I said the opposite may be true
      2. I never questioned anyone's patriotism
   You have resulted to insults "shut yer mouth", to rash assumptions, "he wasn't infantry", to straw-man arguments, "don't ask me to feel sorry for him", back to insults, "pawn, lemming"; all to disprove that there might be some soldiers doing good things.  I would think that as someone who is obviously disillusioned with their service and feels let down, you would appreciate hearing about some hopeful situations that others went through. 
       Not all soldiers are dupes or pawns who mindlessly follow.  Maybe that was you, and you saw some horrible things that woke you up.  I admire you for your willingness to go, regardless.  BUT THERE ARE SOME SOLDIERS WHO KNOW FULL WELL WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO AND BELIEVE IN THE MISSION, AND STILL CHOOSE TO GO; therefore they are not pawns.
 ----  I really don't know why because of your experience you are so eager to assume the worst about a situation where you weren't and a group of soldiers you don't know.  Did it ever occur that out of 100,000+ troops in two different conflicts that someone might have had a different experience than you?
          There is a middle ground between blind patriotism and assuming your government is evil, conspiring against you, etc. Other soldiers and civilians have seen the same news, and been in the same conflicts as you guys.  I am willing to accept that ya'll came to different conclusions based on what you've seen, read, experienced, etc.  Why can't you accept the same of me without calling names? (idiot, lemming, etc.)?   

[pcking78]

  By the way, your disapproval of the war and it's handling doesn't cause me question your patriotism and support for the troops.  However, your repeated tendency to assume negative things about one of your fellow veterans does. 

[pcking78]

   Cabin4--"why do they hate us?"   I don't know, why do they hate Spain, why do they hate England, why do they hate armenians, kurds, Shiites hate Sunnis and Sunnis hate Shiites?  Why do they hate Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews?  Why do serial killers hate those they target? 
  Remember, we are dealing with literally billions of muslims on this planet, less than 1% of that are the terrorist we are dealing with.  Most muslims do not hate us.  We have got to stop painting everyone involved here (troops, muslims, etc) with the same broad brush.    As far as why do that small percentage hate us?

-----Can't we agree that some people are just bad?
I'm not saying that the conflict has not inspired new hatred, it probably has.  But to assume that if we just leave them alone and play nice that they will just leave us alone is naive from my point of view.

[Cabin4]

They hate us because we ( the West) meddle in the internal affairs of their country, provide unconditional support for Israel and either directly or indirectly kill their people. Seems pretty simple to me. All this talk that they hate us "just because" is nothing more than the lies perpetrated by democrats and republicans to continue the war and an uninterrupted oil supply. They want us to think that this is a war of survival of the western civilization. And while our interference in the ME has been going on long enough, it is and will continue to take on a generational role. We are planting the seeds of hate all over the world.

There is nothing conservative or liberal about our continued horrible failed foreign policy. Both republicans and democrats have continued the horrible polices in one form or another in an effort to expand American influence & control around the world. It’s just bad and wrong policy largely to do with our involvement in the UN (NWO organizers) and their ability to lead us down these paths.

[Squib]

as far as I know, anyone that goes into the military expecting to do good things and get some benefits after getting out is in for a surprise.  even worse is being disabled and getting bs medical care from the va after all of it.  I'm pretty sure that means that those people (me included) are pawns. 

world war two, korea, vietnam, grenada, desert storm, iraq and afghanistan... every generation has veteran health care problems and once it gets people really mad then the government will up the disability payments, open a few new va centers, and clean house a few years too late.  or in obama's case, just try to alleviate all liability to veterans if they have insurance.  once again... I'm pretty sure that anyone who volunteers for such a corrupted system is going to come to a severly negative realization in short order- being used as a pawn and nothing more. 

the icing on the cake is the "right-wing extremist" label, being forced to play games with the va when minorities and single moms can get welfare easily enough, putting up with bs CCW licenses after having served in the usmc as a infantryman, paying high taxes while others just leech off the system....

what's there to not be disgruntled about, I really don't know.

[powderman]

Cabin 4. Because thats what satans handbook tells them they must do. We are in a war like it or not. It's islam against the entire world. I hope the world wakes up and sees islam for the cancerous, Godless cult it really is, and deals with it accordingly. POWDERMAN. 

[pcking78]

"world war two, korea, vietnam, grenada, desert storm, iraq and afghanistan... every generation has veteran health care problems and once it gets people really mad then the government will up the disability payments, open a few new va centers, and clean house a few years too late.  or in obama's case, just try to alleviate all liability to veterans if they have insurance.  once again... I'm pretty sure that anyone who volunteers for such a corrupted system is going to come to a severly negative realization in short order- being used as a pawn and nothing more.  

the icing on the cake is the "right-wing extremist" label, being forced to play games with the va when minorities and single moms can get welfare easily enough, putting up with bs CCW licenses after having served in the usmc as a infantryman, paying high taxes while others just leech off the system...."

Squib, I agree with you 100% on these things.  The VA is horrible, and now people want the gov to run the entire health system, go figure??  

   I still maintain that, at least not in all areas, our soldiers behavior does not justify violent insurgency and murder as you said.  The progress in Iraq at least, thankfully shows that most civilians there don't agree with you either.

[pcking78]

  TM7 and Cabin4, you still haven't explained their violence against each other or against other nations not part of western civilization.  Or, why, if this violence against USA is justified, why it is only a small % and not more of the 1 billion muslims on the planet. I can't believe you would justify the slaughter of thousands of innocents.

[Squib]

they didn't justify it, they said that the only motivation isn't religious zealotry. 

as to why more don't stand up and fight, it's because they don't have the individual wealth to give lots of tax money to a large military that can actually campaign around the globe, and most people are sissies.


as for the people liking foreign soldiers coming into their homes for security reasons.... I'd not let a fed or national guardsmen in my house.  I don't know why foreigners should either.  I didn't say it was bad tactics, I said it would set them off.  maybe you've got kids.. so you wouldn't fight off a few cops who wanted to raid your house.  would you go after those men or other guys from the same organization later though?  I bet a lot of people would.  our nation is built upon the individualist mentality, so why we expect to spread democracy successfully while being hypocrits I do not know.  I am sure though, that the politicians do not care about that.  the rules of engagement are terrible, so when soldiers/marines do open fire it gets nasty quick.  that isn't the individual war-fighter's fault though.  it is the government for sending them into a bs operation in the first place.  I'm not anti-troop, I'm anti-fed, anti-nato, anti-un, anti-occupation, anti-imperialist......

why would I blame the troops, I made the same mistakes, I did the same oppressive things to foreign people.  it's never alright with the people who have their houses searched- they open the doors because US troops have guns, not to be social.

[pcking78]

"If we change those actions, I'll bet they will eventually stop attacking us."

Sounds like he is justifying it to me Squib. And I never said that religion was the only reason.  I also never said that they would like soldiers coming into their homes, and I never said I would like it.  But, in the context of the entire war, I would be glad to see the regime I lived under be eliminated, for reasons earlier stated.  As I said, luckily, the immense progress made in Iraq shows that most of those citizens agree with me.

  1. If most people there are justified in staying home and shooting troops, as you said, then why aren't they doing just that, at least in Iraq?
   2. If they, (the insurgents and terrorists) are justified in attacking America, what is their reason for violence against other non-muslims and against muslim sects they disagree with?
3. If all this is because of our support for Israel, and their supposed mistreatment of Palestinians, then why is there not terrorist violence against Jordan, who relocated and persecuted palestinians long before Israel was created?
4. Is there really a moral equivalency between the actions our troops undertake, and putting bombs in a car with women and children, to make it less suspicious, and sending it toward a checkpoint or a marketplace?  Are you guys telling me you would resort to these tactics if in that situation?

5. Do yo really think that those citizens have less rights now then they did under Saddam and the Taliban?
I have asked these questions several times, each time people put words in my mouth and avoid the direct questions. I am done with this thread unless I see a meaningful response to these points. I am tired of having to defend against assumptions and false points that I did not make in the first place.

[beerbelly]

I use the VA and thanks to them I am still alive. Is the care as good as I could buy if I were a multi millionaire, no.
  I see whiners all the time, squib is one of them. He seems to think the government owes him something. It dose, Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nothing more.
                                    Beerbelly

[Cabin4]

Explaining why we are being attacked should not be confused with me providing justification for terrorist action against us. It is however, a justification that we better change the way we engage the world before it's entirely too late. I want one of you to tell me you would be just fine with an occupying force on our land killing our people? You may yourself want to turn into a terrorist if this was the case.......

As far as why they kill each other?? simple, because some in the Muslim world support the US! It's no different than when colonialists supported England during the Revolution, they became targets for the colonialist militias and the Continental army!

For all the self proclaimed conservatives here, explain to me the justification for the way we engage the world? But before you do this, read our constitution and founding principles and help me understand how sending troops into Iraq or Afghanistan is justified? Explain to me how endless meddling in the affairs of other nations is based our constitutional principles? Explain to me how our unyielding and double standard support for Israel is constitutionally based? Explain to me the justification for the massive oil imports is aligned with our constitution while we leave oil un-tapped oil and other energy right here at home? Why are sending aid to foreign countries to further influence their internal politics? Explain to me how destroying and rebuilding nations is in our constitution?

If you can't or won’t do this, your committing yourself to and endless war against a growing population of people around the world. Best of luck at winning it because you are more likely to die trying. Why not do what our founding constitutional principles define for us? Stay the hell out of the worlds mess. Let them fight and kill each other.

[pcking78]

 WOW, first you said this. . . "I want one of you to tell me you would be just fine with an occupying force on our land killing our people? You may yourself want to turn into a terrorist if this was the case......."

  THEN you said this. . . "As far as why they kill each other?? simple, because some in the Muslim world support the US!"

-----  In the same post you condemn our forces as occupiers and killers, you then excuse their violence against each other as our fault. First off, your answer makes no sense due to the fact that Sunni muslims and Shiite muslims have been fighting for 1000 years. 
----You are definitly part of the blame America first crowd. Doesn't it make more sense to simply admit that these terrorist are evil people who have a tendency towards violence??
-- To answer your question, if I lived under Saddam or the Taliban, I would be just fine with another force coming in, setting up free elections, allowing my wife and daughters to live in the 20th century. AND, I would be fine with them killing whoever tried to take my nation back to the old repressive regime with its mock elections, rape rooms, political prisoners and torture.
    Does anyone else here have a problem with someone who gives terrorists the benefit of the doubt over our own military? Like he did with the posts above?

[pcking78]

    I want to make clear, I am not trying to say that this war was a wise choice in any way.  I feel that strong arguments can be made on both sides of that issue and I am unclear how I feel on that myself.  Perhaps it was the wrong choice to go in, but I feel, like most, that it was a wise choice at that time.  Hindsight is 20/20. 
      However, nothing to me can ever excuse the barbaric atrocities that have been commited by a bloodthirsty few on 9-11 and in the years since.  And I know without doubt that some good has been done in that part of the world by many of our brave soldiers. Those are the only things I was trying to point out.  And I support our troops 100%.
       

[beerbelly]

9-11 was not the only attack they did on us. They have attacked us many times over the past years. 9-11 was the second attack on the towers, there was the Marines blown up in Lebanon, the USS Cole and many more that just don't come to mind right now.
    Now we can turn and run like cabin4 wants us to , but we can't hide ! They have already hit us here at home on several occasions. Ft. Hood being the last!
  No we don't need to run, we need to slaughter the SOB's. I have said before , they understand fear, we just have not had the will to instill it in them. But we sure as hell need to!
                                    Beerbelly

[powderman]

The Godless onres kill each other when there are no other soft targets. With them it's all about killing and blood and gore. Doesn't matter whose blood, just as long as they kill. They even send their children to hell by strapping explosives on them and telling them to murder innocents and allah will reward them, a lie of course.  What kind of a father would do that? A muslim. What kind of a man would beat and murder his own daughter for honor?? A muslim. What kind  of a man would beat his wife for what he sees as an affront to allah? A muslim. What kind of people would celebrate the deaths of 3,000 innocents on 9-11-01? Muslims, all over the world including America. Love em if ya want, make excuses for them, they are only a cancer to me and most of the rest of the world. POWDERMAN. 

[Cabin4]

WOW, first you said this. . . "I want one of you to tell me you would be just fine with an occupying force on our land killing our people? You may yourself want to turn into a terrorist if this was the case......."

  THEN you said this. . . "As far as why they kill each other?? simple, because some in the Muslim world support the US!"

-----  In the same post you condemn our forces as occupiers and killers, you then excuse their violence against each other as our fault. First off, your answer makes no sense due to the fact that Sunni muslims and Shiite muslims have been fighting for 1000 years. 
----You are definitly part of the blame America first crowd. Doesn't it make more sense to simply admit that these terrorist are evil people who have a tendency towards violence??
-- To answer your question, if I lived under Saddam or the Taliban, I would be just fine with another force coming in, setting up free elections, allowing my wife and daughters to live in the 20th century. AND, I would be fine with them killing whoever tried to take my nation back to the old repressive regime with its mock elections, rape rooms, political prisoners and torture.
    Does anyone else here have a problem with someone who gives terrorists the benefit of the doubt over our own military? Like he did with the posts above?

.Yes, we are occupying their land and they hate us for this. Yes, some muslins kill other muslins because those muslins work and support the US efforts. There is nothing contradictory about this. I never said that 100% of all muslins worldwide are opposed to the US. For instance, AL Qaeda (muslins) want to kill the Saudi Royal Family who are muslin. Al Qaeda want to kill the royal family because they allowed the US to operate a base that we launched the first gulf war from. Look at Karzi, he is being propped up by the US and the Taliban wants to kill him. Not hard to understand the concept of muslins killing each other.

I suppose you would still like the occupying force if they killed your wife and or daughter?? What if you supported your government to begin with despite how half-azz backwards they were?

You know what? I could care less about these countries. I don't care about the guy who wants free elections or wants his wife and daughter to live in the 20th century. It has nothing to do with the USA. I see no need for our sons to die to free some guys wife and daughter from the binds of a half azz country. Not my problem nor the charter of the USA to depose regimes and rebuild countries

[Cabin4]

9-11 was not the only attack they did on us. They have attacked us many times over the past years. 9-11 was the second attack on the towers, there was the Marines blown up in Lebanon, the USS Cole and many more that just don't come to mind right now.
    Now we can turn and run like cabin4 wants us to , but we can't hide ! They have already hit us here at home on several occasions. Ft. Hood being the last!
  No we don't need to run, we need to slaughter the SOB's. I have said before , they understand fear, we just have not had the will to instill it in them. But we sure as hell need to!
                                    Beerbelly

As long as we keep screwing around in thier front and back yard, as long as we keep meddling in the affairs of their country we will forever be exposed to further terror attacks.

[Cabin4]

They even send their children to hell by strapping explosives on them and telling them to murder innocents and allah will reward them, a lie of course. 
C4: Who cares what the hell they do. I could care less if they all strap bombs to themselves and all blow up.What kind of a father would do that? A muslim. What kind of a man would beat and murder his own daughter for honor?? A muslim. What kind  of a man would beat his wife for what he sees as an affront to allah? A muslim.
C4: Who cares what they do? I could care less about this. It has nothing to do with us...
What kind of people would celebrate the deaths of 3,000 innocents on 9-11-01? Muslims, all over the world including America.
C4: Who cares what they celebrate. Let's break all ties with these animals. I don't want to have anything to do with these people.
Love em if ya want, make excuses for them, they are only a cancer to me and most of the rest of the world. POWDERMAN. 
C4: I don't love them. You and the others are making the argument that we must be there to help them!! I'm confused.. I don't want anything to do with these people and you want to free thier wife's and daughters!! What gives? The hell with then and the tyranny they must suffer. We have no business to go there and die to save muslims from thier corrupt and immoral governments.

[Swampman]

9-11 was not the only attack they did on us. They have attacked us many times over the past years. 9-11 was the second attack on the towers, there was the Marines blown up in Lebanon, the USS Cole and many more that just don't come to mind right now.
    Now we can turn and run like cabin4 wants us to , but we can't hide ! They have already hit us here at home on several occasions. Ft. Hood being the last!
  No we don't need to run, we need to slaughter the SOB's. I have said before , they understand fear, we just have not had the will to instill it in them. But we sure as hell need to!
                                    Beerbelly

As long as we keep screwing around in thier front and back yard, as long as we keep meddling in the affairs of their country we will forever be exposed to further terror attacks.

So we are to blame for the attacks on the WTC, USS Cole, and the Pentagon?........Not!

[Swampman]

Traitors make me ill.

Traitors are those that violate our constitution.

Anyone who poor mouths America and her soldiers is a traitor.