OK, this is politically incorrect!!!!

[skarke]

Let me preface by stating that I am not discussing the morality of history, just an inconvenient fact.

Many say that the War in Afganistan is unwinnable.  Not necessarily.  I need only cite what happened in the Western Territories to seize control from the Native Americans for US settlement and expansion.  It was brutal, all out, winner take all war, with full population relocation or eradication, ending with the slaughter at Wounded Knee.  Frankly, if Afganistan seems set on being a breeding ground for global terrorism, I can imagine where history might repeat itself.

Utter resolve, overwhelming power, a little Shermanlike ruthlessness, and a disregard for present moral opinion in order to secure a different future might be the recipe for peace.

I do know this, the easiest way to ensure peace toward us as individuals, or us as a nation, it to be so bad, bold, and brazen that no one in his right mind would dare mess with us.

Speak softly and carry a big stick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oldshooter]

A man after my own heart! That being said, The fact that the indian wars were internal might make the difference and by all means use of such high handed unilateral force might bring down the house of cards that is the "coalition". At the risk of name calling i am with you in principle! One difference has to be made, the Indians did not have "allies". they were on their own with only weapons that they could beg borrow or steal. These fine representatives of modern guerrilla warfare, are supplied by rich Muslims and i have my inclinations that the ruskies are playing a hand here also! Plus the fact that the "industry" of this God forsaken place is also a gold mine.

[ironglow]

  Let's face it guys; we have people right here in the US working to undermine our efforts there..and I don't mean radical Muslims alone.
  There have been politicians who wanted us to fail (e.g. Reid, Murtha...IMO). Hopefully, they won't be as strident..now that their boy is "in the barrel."
     By far, the most widespread and egregious practice funding our enemies is coming from people here who buy the garbage grown in Afghan fields. Obviously, anyone from the grower to the final user is hurting our efforts and getting our troops killed by arms & munitions purchased with illegal drug money.
    The poor Afghan farmer has little blame obviously, and from the Afghan terrorist shipper we don't expect any conscience. ...But from the first American who touches the stuff..to the final user, all are intentionally to blame for unnecessary deaths of some of our troops ... should be treated as traitors and stood against the wall..

[Questor]

I don't see it that way. The conquest of North America was about a people wanting to own and occupy an entire continent. Afghanistan is about a people trying to create an ally. Anyplace in the world can be a breeding ground for terrorism. If it isn't Afghanistan, it's someplace else. Also, I don't believe it is a major training ground for the terrorists that we need to worry about. Our military pressure there appears to be increasing the likelihood of serious wars in, among other places, Pakistan, as witnessed by the shift of terrorist hostilities from Afghanistan into that country.

[Squib]

before the us had the power to keep other nations scared to fight

now the nuclear technology is out and other nations have overt, large caches- some nations have suspected but unconfirmed ability as well



america had the power and lost it, now it's a worldwide deterrent- until global society forgets why nuclear war is feared and pushes enough buttons to get one going.

[Graybeard]

What the heck is it you guys think that bunch of middle ages minded misfits in Afghanistan are doing or can do that makes them a threat to the world much less the US? Other than growing the dope that funds the CIA I don't see much harm they are doing.

They being the Afghans are NOT the enemy we need to be worrying about. The real enemy are those folks who are convincing us the folks over there are a problem for us. It's all a part of the smoke and mirrors the one world government crowd is fostering on us and you are falling for it hook line and sinker.

Wake up and see who the REAL ENEMIES of our freedom are. HINT: It's not a bunch of backward muzlims in Afghanistan growing poppies.

[Squib]

I know, I'm just saying that as far as total war is concerned- the us had that monopolized for a brief time.  let the knowledge out, wouldn't use the weapons again, wouldn't dispose of them.... america is getting much weaker every generation despite all the technology and military might- it's a moral issue.  real men don't grow on trees but from strong societies, and ours is going down...

I think almost all the good men got killed in the world wars so the leftover people (sissies) are now the majority... use any example of how things used to be and then remember that all the honorable and courageous guys got shelled and shot back then... letting the US drift to the current PC reality we must live in.

[magooch]

While the backward Afghans might not be our main enemy, they (the Taliban) nonetheless were complicite (maybe that's not a word, but it should be) to some degree in the al Qaeda attacks on this country and I remember that GWB was lauded for his "Bush doctrine", which said that if you give our enemies sanctuary, you're on our list.

[Squib]

I think gb was getting to just that!  being "on the list" meant that US forces would occupy and spread democracy.. or maybe just stretch the globalists tentacles further

the US Military is the soldier/pawn
the UN is the king
congress is the royal family
the bankers/wealthy are the new papacy

mercantilism is what the US economy was founded on- prior to even declaring independence from britain.  it seems the US has gone back to it whole-heartedly and that capitalism is just an option and not a rule.

[pcking78]

    Squib, how would you call it mercantilism when the largest oil contracts coming out of Iraq went to China??  How is the U.N. the king of this "new world order" when essentially everyone within the U.N. makes a hobby out of criticizing the U.S. and our foreign policy??  I respect your military service but take offense to you refering to other soldiers as "pawns".  They are volunteers, and the ones I know have a clear understanding of why they joined and believe whole-heartedly in their mission.

    P.S. I hate the U.N. as much as anyone and feel like we should renounce our membership and quit weakening our sovereignty by participating with that group of clowns.  But this whole conspiracy thing . . . . I've found most things of that nature are just to extreme to be true.
    As far as how do people in Afghan pose a threat to us?  They pose a threat by looking the other way while their government allows terrorist training camps in their own backyards.  That's how.  After the bombing of the USS Cole, the embassies all over the world, Islamic attacks here on our soil, like the one at Ft. Hood the other day, the 1993 WTC bombing, etc.  I don't see how anyone could say that those people are not a threat.

[Oldshooter]

OK NOW i'M SORRY I POSTED HERE THE TIN FOIL HATS ARE COMING OUTA THE WOOD WORK AGAIN !
NEVER MIND!

[cochise]

We should forget Afghanistan except for buying their opium for medical use, and carpet bomb Saudi and Tehran. We are in control of the worlds second largest petroleum reserve in Iraq. The rich Wahabis and the Iranians are the root of all the terror. I wouldn't mind seeing a preemptive strike on Paki nukes also. The UN should be bulldozed and the debris used as aggregate in concrete for new Airforce runways somewhere.

[Cabin4]

There are roughly 50 million Afghans. Comparing killing all these to the efforts of the native Americans is a bit of a stretch. In any case, even if you kill all them, you better have a plan to kill the rest of the Muslim people in the world. Otherwise, they will launch terror attacks on us. So winning the war on terror in this manner is a losing proposition as well.

I would rather focus attention on the real enemies of this country. And we don't have to go to Afghanistan to find them. The real enemies of this country, far more a threat than any two-bit dictator or Muslim terrorist are the murdering, immoral, unethical, lying,  tax dollar stealing criminals running this country in Washington and most state houses. Not to mention their criminal accomplices in the UN and the ultra rich pulling the politicians puppet strings.

[Squib]

strange that we owe china so much money and yet we can't pay..... oh yeah, iraq's got oil.  I don't know that it's working out like that but them getting that oil doesn't prove that the US isn't doing the dirty work of the UN.  soldiers on the ground don't make the calls, don't pick and choose which missions to go on- they just follow orders.  I was doing that crap before and I never had a clue why or how any of it was supposed to make america safer--- raiding a cave full of al-queda or taliban might have done some good.... but apparently no one can find his cave so let's just go raid everyone's house in the middle east.  Iraq is clear, we need to go check every afghan closet and shower now, then on to iran..... no bin laden??

anybody you know that isn't a colonel or higher is a pawn, straight up!  that's not me being rude that's brutal honesty. 

[pcking78]

       While I agree that these wars may have been a mistake and I don't know that our elected leaders would make that mistake again, you have to remember that at that time not only republicans but most democrats also voted for both wars.  Also, in the case of Iraq, even Saddam's own generals were convinced that he had WMD's.  It was a ruse he kept going because of the ongoing conflict with Iran.  British intel showed the same. And it is not a genocide, Saddam and the Taliban ruled out of fear, and put to death more of their own innocent people than our troops have.  That is why these wars are so protracted, we are trying to fight them without hurting anybody, we are court martialing troops for goodness sake because they supposedly punched a terrorist they arrested.  By the way, the terrorist was one of the ones who killed the foreign contractors and dragged their burning bodies through the street a couple years ago. 
       Disagree with the war if you want, you may be right, but I refuse to believe we are the ones being inhumane over there.  If we fought this war like we did WWII, it would have been over years ago.

[Squib]

we can just let them kill each other and not waste our bombs and money.  also those contractors were in the muslims' turf.  seems they made some bad travel plans.  it's sad but they shouldn't have been there.  contractors in the middle east get paid lots of money- for a reason.

[JBlk]

This war is another use of smoke and mirrors.Look what is in the right hand and accomplish what you want to do with the left.I go along with greybeard, the real danger is from the people who are using these deceptions.People who are under stress allow things to happen that they never would condone without that stress.Induce the stress and accomplish your goal.The World Order is nothing more than a small group of wealthy indiviguals who want to obtain more wealth and power.

[Squib]

I'm tired of hearing about the troops- the politicians got the military committed to a PRESENCE overseas but not to a WAR over there, so americans will continue to die- getting picked off by opportunists with sloppy guerrila tactics- and everytime that happens the families of the dead get upset, the neighbors get upset, friends get upset.... most didn't agree with it until our men started dying, then it got personal.  WHY, why is it personal when our military shouldn't even be there anymore? 

The rules of engagement over there are a joke, and have been since the fall of Bagdad.  Everyone deployed there knows it- SEALs even have to worry now and they're supposed to be the best, they're definitely more prestigious than most units.

[skarke]

I knew that posting this would touch a few nerves.  Whether Afganistan, Iraq, Pakistan, or Burma is the battleground is irrelevent to what I am attempting to say.  Whatever we'd like the World to be, and our place in it, the fact is that We are the Shining City upon the Hill, with all of our faults.

In my lifetime, I haven't observed hoards of people fighting to swim rivers and break laws to enter other countries, with the exception of a few Western European exceptions (and in those cases, the immigration is primarily driven by access to govt welfare).

Here's my point: we have overwhelming military superiority, and the ability to inflict global devastation at our will, even with conventional weapons.  Total offense works.  A case in point, General Vo Nguyen Giap was the NVA Commanding General responsible for the latter years of the Vietnam war, and many, many of his subordinates cite the anti war movement in the US as the PRIMARY REASON for the US defeat.  The war opponents, through our democratic process, stopped the single most effective weapon we had in the war: mass destruction of the enemy.

In "A Patriot's History of the United States" by Schweikart paperback ed., p. 713: "POWs in Hanoi confirmed that the North Vietnamese were nearly on the verge of collapse during the bombing, a view supported by the British and other foreign ambassadors there."  Concensus exists to this day among the NVA leaders that they were in disarray, and days away from bargaining for peace, if the bombing had continued.

What does all this mean?  If we are going to fight, the only effective means to do so is with an absolute resolve to win.  With GBush steadfastly holding course, victory is achieved in Iraq (until the commies in the govt undercut the victory itself fo the sole purpose of being able to claim correctness on the issue.

We fight to win, we win.  That's all I'm saying.

[SHOOTALL]

Had we nuked Tora Bora it would be over now . And attacks would have stopped due to lack of support .
 

[billy_56081]

Well said, we fight to win, we win.


The military brass needs to tell the government that our troops will be allowed to win this war. I will support a military junta to get our country back on track. The seeds of freedom are in need of fertilizer.

[Cabin4]

We are screwed.

[nw_hunter]

There are roughly 50 million Afghans. Comparing killing all these to the efforts of the native Americans is a bit of a stretch. In any case, even if you kill all them, you better have a plan to kill the rest of the Muslim people in the world. Otherwise, they will launch terror attacks on us. So winning the war on terror in this manner is a losing proposition as well.

I would rather focus attention on the real enemies of this country. And we don't have to go to Afghanistan to find them. The real enemies of this country, far more a threat than any two-bit dictator or Muslim terrorist are the murdering, immoral, unethical, lying,  tax dollar stealing criminals running this country in Washington and most state houses. Not to mention their criminal accomplices in the UN and the ultra rich pulling the politicians puppet strings.

Ain't that the dam truth!

The older I get, the clearer it is to me, that damn few people in this country can think for themselves.
They need the talking heads of mainstream ULTRA RICH) media to do it for them. If they say, we need to send more troops to die in some meaningless war in a rock strewn hell hole, then it has to be for our own good. We need to fight them over there, so we don't have to do it over here.
Fox or MSNBC wouldn't say so, if it were not true.

No wonder we keep electing these criminals to control us.Too many dam sheep and not enough wolves these days.

[Squib]

sheep and wolves...

I'm worried about the shepard!!!!

[fr3db3ar]

I dare say....if the old west were still going today.......the indians would own half of america.  The stuff we did back then wouldn't stand the test today.

[pcking78]

nw_hunter, since msnbc and fox typically endorse completely opposite points of view; I'm not sure I understand your point. 

  Yes, there are sheeple on both sides, liberal and conservative.  There are also people on both sides who know the facts as well or better than you and just have a different opinion.  Just because someone disagrees with your view doesn't make them a mindless zombie that can't think for themselves; to me it would be extremely arrogant to think that way.

[SHOOTALL]

fr3db3ar,
 You might be backwards , what we are doing today won't stand the test of time . We will have to go bact to those old ways to rid ourselves of the problems we have caused .

[skarke]

What I've basically come to believe is that terrorism, specifically acts upon civilians, is going to be a growing part of world events.  When I started this post, I used the most extreme example of overwhelming force and resolve I could recall, without consideration of whether it was morally correct.

Throughout history before mutually assured destruction, peace existed only when there was supremacy of force owned by the leading power of the time.  When the superpower of the age began to lose its ability to inflict its will upon its enemies, usually through a loss of resolve among the factions existing within the superpower, they became vulnerable to "terrorist" attacks, then larger assaults, and culminating in eventual defeat through the growing strength and ability of the opposition.

World history from an empire perspective is pretty simple.  It is analogous to the life cycle of the dominant buck.  The dominant buck was once dominated in his youth.  But as he grew stronger, he challenged his predecessor occasionally, then more often, learning each time more information about the weaknesses of the king he wished to overthrow.  Eventually, he could smell the scent of his enevitable victory and waged the final battle, winner take all, and the new bull of the woods was coronated.

Such as it will be with the US.  We, as a few have correctly stated, have a totally corrupt government with unbridaled control over our lives.  We have enemies that smell the blood of a bloated, inbebted, and uneducated populous, ...................and are waiting for their opportunity.

Short of a true, fall on our knees, revival, we might be seeing the beginning of the end of our great Nation, and the Manifest Destiny that was ours.

The great news, though, is that Christ has already paid the price for our sin, and through His gift, God and sinners are forever reconciled.

See, it doesn't really matter what happens here, IMHO, we are aliens upon this Earth, sent for a single purpose, and will soon be in paradise.

Blessings of Christmas to all, and I hope that our discussion isn't a downer, though it is understandably sobering.

[skarke]

One other quick note, there is no question that small little third world countries pose little threat to our military.  This is my differing view: it is the little things that add up.  A market bombing here, a water plant poisoning there, and fear will set in.  Scared people act irrationally, and are VERY susceptible to political promises.  Germany didn't fall to the Nazis because it was prosperous, it fell because Hitler promised Germany that he'd stop the economic devastation of the Versailles Treaty upon Germany.

We have a Porkulous Bill passed, and the most socialist politicians in power in the history of the US just because of a little fear.  As R Emmanuel says, "Never let a crisis go to waste".

Create a little fear, a small crisis, and almost anything can happen.  We are no different than the German people.  We can and will be swayed by politicians promising that, if we just give them a little more money and power, this or that will become better.

The point of terrorism is creating terror, and terror breeds poor judgement, and poor judgement brings down empires.

[RaySendero]

Let me preface by stating that I am not discussing the morality of history, just an inconvenient fact.

Many say that the War in Afganistan is unwinnable.  Not necessarily.  I need only cite what happened in the Western Territories to seize control from the Native Americans for US settlement and expansion.  It was brutal, all out, winner take all war, with full population relocation or eradication, ending with the slaughter at Wounded Knee.  Frankly, if Afganistan seems set on being a breeding ground for global terrorism, I can imagine where history might repeat itself.

sharke,

I agree with most of your thinking, but disagree with the goals and strategies!

We do not need to conduct police actions against Muslim terrorism in Afganistan until we fix the Muslim terrorist problem already here in US!

Utter resolve, overwhelming power, a little Shermanlike ruthlessness, and a disregard for present moral opinion in order to secure a different future might be the recipe for peace.

I do know this, the easiest way to ensure peace toward us as individuals, or us as a nation, it to be so bad, bold, and brazen that no one in his right mind would dare mess with us.

Speak softly and carry a big stick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sharke,

Again, I agree with your strategy - Think "I'll be BACK" would make a great foreign policy!

I'd get out of the police action and kick their a__ where-ever in the world they popped up with signifcant collateral damage such that no foreign power one would ever want US to come back!