Author Topic: If you had to choose betwwen these two (Read 2475 times)

Doublebass73 · « **on:** December 04, 2009, 01:50:59 PM »

I work in an office with a "no guns" policy. I decided long ago to carry at work anyway but I keep it quiet and carry an NAA mini revolver in .22 Magnum which is small enough to not get noticed. I've been working there for 3 years and nobody has ever noticed, I use a homemade holster that prints like a wallet. I like the gun but understand the caliber is very marginal. I ran across a nice American Derringer the other day in .45 Colt/.410. I'm set up to reload .45 Colt so I could load some light practice loads to get used to the recoil. This gun looks to be about as big as I could get away with without being noticed.

I like the idea of having something as big as a .45 Colt in a small deep concealment gun. I love J-frames but even those are too big since they print way more due to the cylinder bulge in the pocket. I'm not into the mousegun semi-autos as they are almost as marginal as the .22 Mag plus the grips don't fit my big hands well either. The Derringer obviously has the big disadvantage of having only 2 shots.

My question is if you had to pick between 5 shots of .22 Mag or 2 shots of .45 Colt/.410 for deep concealment at work which would you pick and why?

Thanks for any opinions.

S.S. · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2009, 01:57:23 PM »

.45 derringer hands down

Savage · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2009, 03:27:56 PM »

I applaud your choice to take responsibility for your own safety, but---------------------------------------------------
Wow! Two not so good choices. I'm a bit confused, the pocket autos are too small for your hands but the NAA mini works for you? -------------Little doubt the .45 Colt would be a better stopper, and should be a little faster to the first shot due to it's larger size. Having owned a couple of the "two shooters" I found the weight to be excessive for the firepower. Guess if I had to carry one or the other it would depend on the most important consideration, concealment or power. If you don't like autos, and want more gun than either of these, you might want to consider a J-frame in a belly band or Thunderwear.
To finally answer the question of the original post, between the two, the .45.
Savage

cbourbeau32 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2009, 03:43:09 PM »

+1 on the 45.

I wrestle with the same thing in my mind as my company has a "no guns" policy too. They actually have a no guns on the premisis policy but thank goodness for Oklahoma passing a law that even if the business forbids guns in the workplace you can still have one in your vehicle.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:06:51 PM »

Quote from: Savage on December 04, 2009, 03:27:56 PM

I applaud your choice to take responsibility for your own safety, but---------------------------------------------------
Wow! Two not so good choices. I'm a bit confused, the pocket autos are too small for your hands but the NAA mini works for you? -------------Little doubt the .45 Colt would be a better stopper, and should be a little faster to the first shot due to it's larger size. Having owned a couple of the "two shooters" I found the weight to be excessive for the firepower. Guess if I had to carry one or the other it would depend on the most important consideration, concealment or power. If you don't like autos, and want more gun than either of these, you might want to consider a J-frame in a belly band or Thunderwear.
To finally answer the question of the original post, between the two, the .45.
Savage

Yes, I agree with you that neither is a good choice. It's a compromise between refusing to go to work unarmed but at the same time having a job that I like very much so I don't want to jeopardize my income and providing for my family. I'd much prefer a J-frame but I know from carrying a Model 36 in a pocket holster that it prints a lot worse.

The only reason the NAA mini works for me is I have the holster grip on it which actually fits my hand very well. It's very shootable at close range despite the crappy sights. When I bought it I actually went into the gun store with every intention to buy a Kel-Tec .32 or .380. I don't care for semi-autos but the Kel-Tecs give a good compromise for deep concealment. My intentions changed when I handled the Kel-Tecs and realized that I could only get one finger on the trigger and one finger on the tiny grip. That's when the shop owner showed me the NAA which fit my hand real well with the holster grip so I bought it.

Savage · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2009, 01:35:36 AM »

Ok, now I understand. You have the large grip on the mini. The stock grip on the mini only accommodates about half of one finger for me. I do understand your situation, I would likely make the same choice. I'm guessing, as you didn't comment on them, the Belly Band or Thunderwear are out as an alternative carry method. With the holster grip on the mini it's likely not any smaller than the .45 so concealment is a wash. All that's left is capacity, accuracy, and power. Based on my experience, I find the mini more accurate than the derringer style, capacity also goes to the mini. All that's left is a power advantage to the .45. I'd probably gamble on my shots being at contact distance and go with the power of the .45.
Savage

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:05:13 AM »

Neither actually. I'd get a Kel-Tec in either .32 acp or .380 acp. Oh wait I did do that already.

drdougrx · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:26:12 AM »

How about a seecamp in 32??? or find a colt mustand pocketlite in .380?? Can't comment on the new ruger LCR..but maybe a choice??

williamlayton · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:34:45 AM »

I guess a hand grenade would count as equal to pistol?

I carried/carry a PPK in my pants a lot---seemed to work.
I would opt for the .45.
Blessings

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2009, 01:09:03 PM »

I will probably revisit the small pocket autos also just to see if there are any that might fit my big hands. When I handled the Kel-Tecs a while back the grips were way too small for me to shoot accurately. I haven't handled some of the other ones like the Seecamps or Colts so I will take my time and look around. The small pocket autos have a nice, slim profile. I'm not sure if the new Ruger LCR has a more narrow cylinder than a J-frame but Ideally if I could get away with a 5 shot revolver I'd prefer that so I may also revisit carry options other than pocket carry. Thanks for the replies everyone.

mitch132 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:50:10 PM »

The Colt Mustang is a good little pistol, but it has a hefty price tag due to not being made anymore. You may also consider a Sig P238 as an alternative to the Colt. Even Academy carries them now and they have way better sights than the Kel-Tec's and are lighter weight than the Walther PPK's.

It seems like I have seen a .45 LC derringer that could also take .410 shotshells before. With the new buckshot rounds made for the Taurus Judge and Public Defender, that might make a good defensive combination.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2009, 04:17:45 PM »

Yes Bond and American Derringer both make .45LC/.410 Derringers. The one I was looking at was an American Derringer that was chambered for both. It took 2.5 inch .410 shells. I already hunt with a .45 Colt Carbine so the Derringer would make a nice woods companion to it and double as a deep concealment gun for when I'm at work. The obvious disadvantage is the 2 shot capacity.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2009, 04:44:24 PM »

I keep a revolver(S&W M10) in my breif case. I have a Breif case that was made for a gun by Dillon and is only a zipper away. I keep laptop equipment in it and everyone at work is used to seeing it next to my filing cabnet under my desk.
I would look for a larger gun to cary.
The Ruger LCP, Seacamp, Walther PPK/s, Beretta Tom cat, Colt Mustang, Sig 230, or the new Sig that is tiny. Saw one this week at Cabela's in Reno and it was 2/3 the size or smaller than MY P230 or Walther PP Similar to the Colt Mustang. Or a S&W 5 shot J frame. All can be worn in an ankle holster. The others can be worn in a pager or pocket holster. There are also wallet holsters for guns like the Beretta and the Seacamp. (check local laws on the wallet holster. They are illegal in places like Communist California) Other options are to keep the gun in a leather binder. Again Dillion makes some that look like day planners or bible case and can be kept in a breif case or even on your desk with out calling attention to it. You may want to get two and use one as a day planner or bible cover.
While the NAA or the Derrenger are better than the stapler I would rather have something larger, in size, capicity, and caliber that can be reloaded by either a magizine or a speed loader.

Savage · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:00:05 AM »

The Seacamp and Sig are good choices. They are twice the price of the Kel Tec and LCP, and still have the one finger grip. While not ideal for target work, I live with the grip size for the concealability factor. Even with that small grip, I can shoot them better than the mini or the derringer style handguns. I don't carry off body. Too risky. It's easy to find an on body carry system for small revolvers and autos.
Savage

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:41:39 AM »

I ran across these pocket holsters that look like a good concept - http://www.pocketholsters.com/Ruger_LCR_Pocket_Wallet_Holste/ruger_lcr_pocket_wallet_holste.html

They make them for J-frames and Ruger LCRs. They have a square cover for the front so it will print like a wallet. I might actually be able to get away with something like that.

Savage · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:56:05 AM »

When I carry a mouse gun, I find the Desantis "Nemesis" pocket holster or the belt clip work well for me with the P3ATs. I have two of the little guns, and carry the one that works best with how I'm dressed that day. For a "Two Finger" grip, I carry a PF-9 in a Don Hume IWB. It's easily concealed with a "T" shirt. If I want to carry a larger gun concealed, I use an elastic band holster that carries the pistol up high under the arm. It has shoulder straps that keep it secure all day. I wear it over the "T" with a button up shirt over it. Comfortable, secure, concealed. Concealed carry is more about the carry system than the gun.
Savage

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** December 07, 2009, 03:04:32 AM »

Given the choice and reason the NAA is the best tool . To be honest a 5 shot air weight would be lighter and better than the 45/410 . A NAA in 22mag would be better to hide which is the # 1 concern .

trotterlg · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2009, 05:20:23 PM »

I sort of chose between the two types also. I went with a 38 Special O&U. They are dead simple, but are heavier than you think. They are flat, and a 38 is better than a 22 Mag. Not sure where you work, so I don't know the likelyhood of you getting into a shootout. The O&U's have some odd charastics, the top barrel will shoot about a foot higher at 25 feet than the bottom barrel does and both will be high, this is because of the physics of the design, the top barrel has more kick up than the bottom barrel, so it shoots a lot higher. Guess it is a good thing that bad guys are tall and thin, because that is how the derringer will pattern, and you don't know which barrel will go off first. I don't think it is a deal breaker and figure any shot I would need would probably be under 10 feet. If you ever need one I bet you will be real happy with whatever is in your hand. Larry

bluecow · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:33:31 AM »

i like my 38 derringer. dont carry much anymore but when i do this is it. load it, put it in a pocket, and forget it. i spend more time on my pocket knife than my handgun the knife gets more use. ( what are they making packageing out of now?) as i get older i like things simple, and would just as soon have a short sinlge shotgun, but im betting that my fellow shopers at wally world would have a cow if i was so armed.

44 Man · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2009, 03:47:45 AM »

An aluminum frame .38 snub is lighter than any derringer. Personally, I would opt for a kel-tec or Ruger LCP in .380. Remember, you said you were after 'discrete' carry with more power than your .22 mag. A .45 derringer is fun, but does not lend itself to easy hiding. And there is a big difference between have a CCW and carrying where permitted, and carrying where you are not supposed to. In that case you need to carry the easiest to hide gun of sufficent caliber you can. Hence, the Kel Tec or Ruger .380. Buy the .45 derringer if you wish and have fun with it, but you will quickly find it is not easy to hide and you will not appreciate the weight of it for daily carry. That's advice from 40 years of CCW carry and trying everything out there. 44 Man

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 14, 2009, 08:50:45 AM »

The .45 Derringer idea came after I handled an American Derringer .45/.410 x 2.5" for sale in a local gun store. The profile was flatter than a J-frame and the weight was 15 oz. the same as an airweight. I was able to get 2 fingers on the grip unlike the Kel-Tecs where I could only get one finger on the grip. I reload the .45 Colt so I can start light and work my way up to a recoil level that I can handle. I don't like the fact that they don't shoot to POA, though.

My first choice would be a J-frame or Ruger LCR but after carrying a Model 36 for years in the pocket I am a little leery about the concealabilty under certain conditions at work depending on what I'm wearing. I handled a Rohrbaugh 9mm last week and that was just the gun I need but there's no way I can swing the $1200 price tag. The pocket autos look great as far as being able to print like a wallet but the grips either seem to be too small or the in the case of autos with big enough grips the gun is too big to pocket carry. The Rohrbaugh seemed to be the perfect combination for me other than the price tag

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** December 14, 2009, 09:08:47 AM »

I have had both American der. and Bond total of 4. They weigh more than my 340pd , 12 ozs . 3 ozs sounds small until you carry it all day . I switched from a 13 oz.airweight gun and could notice it.
Got to ask how you plan to use the derringer , will you cock it as you pull it ? if so when do you uncock it if you don't shoot ? I have been in stressful situations and letting the hammer down on a derringer at the time would have been alot to deal with cocking it while being attacked could be a problem also. I will admit on 2 of the derringers i had the factory grip pannels made the gun as wide as a J-frame . Now i carry in a pocket and nothing guides the hand into a shooting grip like a revolver . The cyl. holds the pocket open enough that the hand is guided around the grip. No flat pistol works as well for me.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 15, 2009, 02:35:01 AM »

Good point on the factory grips on a derringer. I looked it up and they are the same width as a J-frame cylinder. Something to think about.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** December 15, 2009, 02:40:48 AM »

I hate to see folks waste $$$$$$$ so i post experinces i have had . The grips are one thing , grabing the gun in a panic is another . Another is the 410 shot gun shell in a derringer , what can 3-5 buck shot do better than a 250 gr. lead slug at spitting distance out of a 3 inch bbl. ?

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:37:17 AM »

There's no question the single action aspect of a derringer is another thing to deal with in a SHTF situation. A DAO is easier to deal with, just point and pull the trigger.

Tonk · « **Reply #25 on:** December 15, 2009, 11:35:45 AM »

Doublebass73......Ummmmmmm the year I caught my first 8-lbder! Now getting back to your question, I don't care for 2 shot pistols, though I like the 45 caliber. If you look at the Kel-Tec PF-9 you might have a change of heart, the 9mm Luger cal. with Cor-Bon ammo shells out 483-lbs or kinetic energy and it will penetrate deep enough. I ran the tests in wet newpaper so I know for a fact. Just a thought to consider 73.

I don't even use the sights under 10ft, no need to and mine will shoot under 4 inch groups at 21 ft off handed. You don't need any more accuracy than that my good man.

trotterlg · « **Reply #26 on:** December 15, 2009, 02:45:26 PM »

One of my main concerns is how safe it is when it is in the safe condition. Your NAA is really safe with the hammer down in a notch between the chambers, there is zero chance of an accidental discharge. My 38 Derringer has a hammer block safety and half cock, also near zero chance of an accident. Last month a guy in the Mall here dropped an automatic down his pants and shot himself in the leg, I don't know more detail, but it was sort of embarrising to him, so I guess there is a better chance of a problem with an automatic with one up the tube than with mine. I know there are more steps to go through to shoot what I have, but I am not sure it is really a bad thing. Guess I will just have to avoid any quick draw contests. I also have a nice little 25 acp, but there is no way I would carry it with one in the chamber relying on that little slide safety. Sounds like an accidental discharge at work would probably be more than a little problem for you, so I think these consideration would far outweigh anything else. Larry

ctrout · « **Reply #27 on:** December 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »

If you are unable to hide a full size 1911 or similar sized gun, you need to change your wardrobe. I am 5'8" and have worn a Para Ordnance 5" double stack P16-40 10mm conversion to church and to the beach with no trouble at all. Unless your work dress code requires you to wear a bikini, a full size gun isn't a problem.

trotterlg · « **Reply #28 on:** December 15, 2009, 06:17:17 PM »

Even up here in the frozen north we seldom wear an overcoat to the Beach or in Church. Larry

Savage · « **Reply #29 on:** December 16, 2009, 02:10:28 AM »

Quote from: ctrout on December 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM

If you are unable to hide a full size 1911 or similar sized gun, you need to change your wardrobe. I am 5'8" and have worn a Para Ordnance 5" double stack P16-40 10mm conversion to church and to the beach with no trouble at all. Unless your work dress code requires you to wear a bikini, a full size gun isn't a problem.

Man, I'd love to see you on the beach with that concealed 16-40! I suspect your "Piece" may not be as concealed as you think. If you get a lot of winks from the girls, you may have been "Made" LOL !
I hear these comments occasionally on proper concealment wardrobe. "Gangsta" style clothing is likely not appropriate in the OP's work place. In any environment requiring a tucked shirt, you might get away with a medium sized gun with a concealment "T" or a belly band, maybe even "Thunder-Wear". Anything beyond that, would be "Iffy" at best. Certainly not worth gambling your job over. Any one who's carried concealed for any length of time, has multiple guns and carry systems to allow them to carry undetected in most environments. This is one of those situations where one size doesn't fit all, no matter how you dress.
Savage

Poll

Which would you pick for deep concealment?

Author Topic: If you had to choose betwwen these two (Read 2475 times)