FORD

[bearmgc]

Had a Ford I-6 and ran it into the ground, almost 300,000 mi. Then sold it for parts. Sweet truck.

[pmeisel]

The engineers that designed that motor expected it to go 250K without major work.  My ex-brother -in-law used to work for a place that had a fleet, they would do rings and bearings at about 250K and they would go on to 400K over the road, then be retired to yard use until they rusted out.

[Lloyd Smale]

prices must be differnent where you live Bill becuase there sure not cheaper up here!

I basically just don't agree with your premise here Lloyd. Both times I've bought Toyota's I price checked and wasn't able to get a comparable big three truck for within $10,000 of what I gave for the Toys. When I got the Tundra all three wanted $10,000 to $12,000 more for a comparably equipment pick up truck. Me thinks that your failure to step inside a Toyota dealership has you misunderstanding what you can get one for.

For a full size SUV from Ford or GM to match my Sequoia the difference was closer to $15,000 more. I got a HUGE discount as a repeat buyer plus other incentives that were being offered.

I've not had one single issue that needed attention on either vehicle other than routine oil changes and filter changes at specified intervals. Both of my last two GM products bought new spent more time with the dealer than with me. One of my last two new Fords had way more problems than it should but in honesty most were things I had them add on at the dealership not what Ford put on at the factory. I won't bad mouth Ford as I do like them but their new trucks are just too ugly for my eyes.

The Japanese auto makers are employing more US auto workers today than the big three. I say they are more patriotic than the big three are. They are bring jobs to American with the big three are sending them over seas. Them's facts like it or not.

[Tonk]

Krochus......another non-union scab worker!!!  Who thinks he is on the same level with a real tradesman, NO FRIGGIN WAY JOKER. BYE BYE     

[Tonk]

 

[R.W.Dale]

Now you can shoot your mouth off all you want about American made product but union members in all the car plants put out the best damn product in the nation, next to the Rolls Royce and those cost 10 times the money. You spit words out of your mouth like a drunk sailor! You need to wake up to the true facts and realize that once the glass is empty, that is all there is and you can wave the Japanese or perhaps the Chinese Flag over your house................I sure as hell will not!

HA HA HA HA!    OK I'VE READ IT ALL NOW

A Union member chastising me about an industry getting run into the ground. That's like the proverbial fat guy blaming McDonalds.

Listen buddy I work in heavy industry (steel fabrication) NON Union thank GOD and we laugh at ya'lls lazy overpaid and under skilled asses. You guys think you can take and take and take from an employer under force of strike then whine about your rapidly collapsing shell of an industry pointing accusing fingers at the consumer.

having been a union rep for several years

Take a HARD look at yourself and see if you're happy with what you see. What have YOU done that's genuinely been productive have you made you're employer even one dollar recently?

Krochus.......It's not about waving the Stars & Stripes my little man! It's about being patriotic in the sence that we as Americans should protect our nation and not by just serving Uncle Sam in the military pal.

BULL6%*8   YOu guys just want to be patriotic about only one thing. YOUR TRUCK! Otherwise you have no problem wearing Chinese boots, while mowing the yard with a Mexican lawn mower afterward you'll watch a Korean TV and then you hop on a Japanese computer to whine on greybeard bout others buying a truck you don't approve of all while wearing underwear made in Malaysia

Bunch Of HYPOCRITES



And No I'm not a fan of any one brand vehicle, at 32yrs old Ive owned over 50 from all over the world. My current fleet is all domestic 2 Jeeps and a Saturn Relay. Unfortunately that Saturn is going to be the last GM product I ever buy, and Ive been a fan since I was 15yrs old.  This rig is only 2years old with 50K miles and it's got a LIST of things that have stopped functioning. In short a FLAMING 9^*)( that I still owe on.

Fords big six was later used to make up the inline 6 cly that has been in the JEEP vehicles all these years.

ARE YOU KIDDING?

You really don't have a clue do you? There are no similarities or common origins between the Jeep 4.0 and the Ford 300 NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH

The Jeep 4.0 is essentially an updated AMC 258 made to share parts with the 2.5 4cyl Jeep was already using at the time

The bacic layout of the AMC 258 goes back to 1964 the same year as the Ford 300 so I'm not sure where  "was later used" fits in

[wtxbadger]

Tonk,

I would suggest you go back and research the origins of the Jeep inline six.

As to your opinion on unions, your unions quite simply killed any chance at the US being competitive in a free market economy.

The unions definitely had their place in our country's history for obtaining decent working conditions and wages. That time has long since passed with all of the governmental regulatory agencies we have in place now.


wtxbadger

[KeepTryin]

Was the Jeep 2.5 4 banger a licensed-out version of the Pontiac Iron Duke?

[R.W.Dale]

Was the Jeep 2.5 4 banger a licensed-out version of the Pontiac Iron Duke?

no completely diffrent  archetecture although amc did see fit to retain the "metric" GM bellhousing pattern

[Lloyd Smale]

yes and no. I believe for a couple years they used that motor but the new ones arent the same. As to the 6 its not even close to a ford or even the old 258. Nothing interchanges. Now to being a hypocrit i dont think so. Myself and my wife allways look for products made in america and union made. granted sometims you just cant find one and have to buy something foriegn but i try to only do it as a last resort.
  now to the union thing. Ive been a union worker all my life other then when i was in the miltary. I was an electrical lineman. do you know that before lineman unionized 1 in 4 were killed before retirement. They unionized to force safe work practice laws into effect not for more money. Do you not know that just about every safety measure you use at work even in a non union job was brought to you by the union. do you also not understand that if unions wouldnt have fought for better beneifits and wages that you as a non union employee would be making alot less then you do now. Non union employers still have to give competitive wage packages to get and keep quality workers and its the unions that brough the wage levels up to a level that a man can actually support his family. I never fail to get a laugh out of union bashing. I never hear a union member bashing the unions its allways the non union workes. For the most part its because there jealous the union worker makes more and has more job security. Sure there abusers that ride the union for all its worth but those days are mostly gone as unions have evolved  to the point where there relationships with the companys are more flexable and in most cases the union wont back a poor employee when there let go. Bottom line is the unions made this countrys workforce. it gave us a standard of living in this country that is better then anywhere and bottom line is without the american car manufactures the economy of this country would fail. Why do you think oboma risked political suiside to bail them out. The day the big three fail is the day youd best have a good stash of ammo as i can guarantee you that this country is going to come apart at the seems/ Buy what you want and find any justification you can babble about but if you want this country to be in good shape for your grandkids you best start buying products that are made here and products that benift the american people. Sure toyota and nissan and a few others employ americans bit but the majority of there profits are channeled overseas ME ILL BUY AMERICICAN

Was the Jeep 2.5 4 banger a licensed-out version of the Pontiac Iron Duke?

[R.W.Dale]

As to the 6 its not even close to a ford or even the old 258. Nothing interchanges.

While true about the ford Actually quite a lot can be interchanged between the 258 and the 4.0   

Just about all the accessories,
Head swaps are popular putting a 4,0HO head on a 258
Intakes
Using a 258 crank in a 4.0 makes for a 4.7 stroker another popular swap

Pretty much the only thing that won't is the valve cover

do you know that before lineman unionized 1 in 4 were killed before retirement. They unionized to force safe work practice laws into effect not for more money.

TRUE!

But this was also almost 100years ago now

. I never hear a union member bashing the unions its always the non union workers.

I do all the time.

There's a reason for this,as a true union devotee you're the last person dissatisfied co workers can confide in. Even in a right to work state if one of our UAW members complains or disagrees with the "union line" too loudly they can find themselves getting pooped on is short order.

For the most part its because there jealous the union worker makes more and has more job security.

BWHAHAHA!

Look at what you do! It's kinda hard to outsource line work to Mexico. The folks who have paid union dues for the past 35years at our Whirlpool factory that's about to get sent to Mexico would beg to differ.  To top it off I make/made more money in 10yrs than a friend of mine makes after almost 40! as a union employee. My benefits are better too.

Bottom line is the unions made this countrys workforce. it gave us a standard of living in this country that is better then anywhere and bottom line is without the american car manufactures the economy of this country would fail.

The British government said the same thing about about British Leyland in the 70's. The govt run company finally collapsed yet the Union Jack still flies over parliament today.

Two of the big three have already FAILED right now it's only a matter of how long the taxpayer decides to keep the lights on.

Why do you think oboma risked political suiside to bail them out.

Three words: Campaign contributions and Reelection   That's all this health care reform is about! Trying to prop up the UAW and as a side effect the auto industry which the democratic party actually cares NOTHING about.  Do you realize that GM alone has a  future obligation for retiree health care estimated at $47 billion NO company can survive this other than the fed gov't with their ability to force themselves apoun our pocketbook like some drunken wallet rapist

[Graybeard]

While unions at best have but a tiny bit to do with this thread I will comment on them since that seems the direction this thread has taken.

Long ago when I was but a wee lad dad worked at a local pipe shop and was on the union negotiation team. I'll never forget when the union struck and shut down every soil pipe shop in Alabama which was about 95% of them nationwide most likely. They refused to go back to work until they got a raise. As I recall they were out of work for roughly 18 months. In that time we moved to FL to Haines City where there was a pipe shop and dad worked there for more than a year during the strike. Most folks just walked the picket lines for those 18 months.

When they finally settled and went back to work guess how big their raise was? A nickel, yup one lousy five cents per hour to show for being out of work 18 months. None a man among them lived long enough afterward to make up at a nickel an hour what they lost in wages in those 18 months. STUPID in the extreme. I lost all respect for unions over that episode that so affected my life at a young age. I've never gained any respect since. I've been involved with them in one way or another on several jobs over the years and never did I see any reason to raise my opinion of them based on the unions I was involved with both as a unition member and as a part of managment having to deal with them. I could tell you union horror stories for hours.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont expect to convert anyone to my train of thought. But ill close with this. Yes bill ive seen the same thing with some strikes even in our own company. You cant expect the union to come out on the winning side every time. YOu pay your dues and they do there best to fight for you but its kind of like the nra. You pay your dues there to and they fight for you but they dont win every battle either. Ill stand behind one thing though. If unions never would have existed the standard of living in this country would never have been as high as it was. even non unioin shops have to compete with union shops or they dont get good employees so admit it or not the unions have helped even you non union guys and without unions many of the saftey measures in effect to protect employees would never have been implemented. nothing is perfect but i know at least in my case my life is better because of the union.

[DDZ]

I guess some people forget all the junk the big three put out in the 80’s and 90’s. It was the foreign car manufactures that forced the big three to try and better their autos. The majority of the big threes auto’s still fall behind the Japanese auto in dollar for dollar quality. It has nothing to do with who assembles it. It has to do with how its engineered.
 
 A good friend of mine always criticized foreign autos and anyone that bought a Japanese auto. He was always one to say “I only purchase American made”. After he bought his 04 Dodge truck. He found out that it was assembled in Mexico. How is this truck American made? True American made autos by the big three are a thing of the past. The Toyota’s, Honda’s and Subaru’s built in this country now are more American made than a Dodge Ford or GM made in Mexico or Canada. 

I’m going to throw my two cents in on the union discussion. I have worked as a union member for 34 years. I worked in a heavy construction union for the first 11 years,  I also don’t have one ounce of respect for unions. The union I’m a member of now is a joke. They do everything they can to protect the lazy S-O-B’s. If they don’t feel like working they don’t, and there is nothing the company can do to fire them. If a supervisor tries to discipline one of them, the union jumps in and the supervisor gets to go to anger management classes. Some of these guys think that just driving to work and getting out of their car, they are deserving of a paycheck.
Guess what, if these bums didn’t have the union backing them they would not have a job. Unions do nothing but spawn laziness. Please don’t try to tell me any different I’ve seen it every day for the last 23 years. How is this union  protection  beneficial to a business that employ’s the union members. It seems also that everything is about screwing the company, by not doing their job and all the unbelievable petty grievances.
Something else that is wrong with unions is that if I chose to go to work and bust my butt everyday, (you know like 40 hours work for forty hours pay) there is nothing management can do to compensate me for doing a better job, or for coming up with better ideas, or just plain helping the company be a better company. If management did try to do something to show appreciation for good honest work the union clowns step in and stop it. So I continue to get the same pay and benefits as the lazy bums that sit on their can all day. Management used to hand out gift cards if they thought you were doing a good job. Guess what, the union stopped it, because the lazy bast***s were not getting a gift card.

There is another business a stones throw away from the company I work for, and they are non union. It is the same type of business and their employees do the same type of work. This company pays their NON UNION employees more per hour than the union company I work for. As long as there is a free market, companies will have to compete for employees that do a good job and want to work. The non productive would be out of a job, and the employees that were productive would be making more money.

Why do all unions support democratic candidates? Why did they support Obama? Is it because the SEIU tells them to, or is it because they are too stupid to understand that the democrats are not looking out for their best interests any more? How many times have you heard the union phrase, “the Democrats are for the working man”. Some of you union people are still living in the 60’s. Our great union also takes some of our dues and sends it to the SEIU, who sends it to democratic campaign’s.   
I really got a laugh out of the United Mine Workers union voting for Obama, after Obama basically come out and said he was going to stop the burning of coal. That included any clean burn technology also. That really goes to show you the mentality of unions, doesn’t it? Obama’s going to shut down the coal industry, Rah-Rah, clap- clap. We will be out of a job. It doesn’t matter our union brass told us to vote for him.  Rah-Rah.

It confuses me the things unions do to destroy a company’s chances for survival in the business world. Just look what the unions did for the big three.     

[rwng]

It's amazing how so many people in this country are "dazzled" by anything imported. Now was there junk made in the 1980's? Sure there was. America was in the business of big luxury cars. Japan had been making their "roller skate" cars for decades when we jumped in. By the way, do any of you people honestly know for a fact that Jap cars were better? I don't think so. I have always wondered why the media here, shoved that Asian crap down our throats. Something has always seemed wrong with it and I think the write ups were slanted.  There is no way that the international trade laws were / are fair to the U.S. and flooding the market with cheaply made "knock offs" has had a negative impact on our economy too. As I said, I am from Detroit and alot of my family is or has been employed by the big three of support shops. Some in the union, some not. I have never owned a foreign car. I have no desire to. I can also say that, I have NEVER been disapointed in any of my American vehicles. I have freinds that owned Toyota's, Datsun's, Nissan's, Honda's etc., I've driven in them and driven them and could not see what they liked in them. They always gave the "talking points" (better milage, longevity) To me, they were pieces of crap but that's my opinion. I do remember the Toyota truck, where I seemed to sit on the floor, with my knees in the air. Because of my Dads position with GM, I had been privy to some inside stories. Like how the Toyota truck commercials (where they blow away the big three) were pure "laughable" B.S.. (Remember they got in trouble for those ads) Where 3 Grand Prix's were put up against 3 Nissan Maxima's and the GP's clearly won every test between them. I can go on and on. Believe me, if there was anyway to only buy American I would. The U.S. stuff is always better but also usually more expensive. There was a time when people bought for quality and not just low price. For example I recently bought a pair of Redwing boots. When I got them home I noticed that they were made in China. Redwing was the last place that I could go into and "blindly" but American. I called and complained and then took them back. About the Starry eyed reaction to overseas stuff, that can be said for almost anything. From food, to clothes, to building materials. As far as the union goes, there is no way that they can all be lumped together. I am not a union guy, I do know that some are packed full of folks that get a free ride. On the other hand, in competative feilds like contruction or pipefitting etc.. If you don't have good work ethics, you don't work. If the guys that I bring in slack, I bring it up to the foreman and they don't come back. This seems to only happen when they have to pick the bottom of the barrel at the hall. Well in fear of getting slammed for going waaay to far off topic, I'll end this rant.

To stay on subject, I still like my first Ford. 

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree. I worked as a lineman for over 30 years. I worked at a private utility and was union. On larger jobs we hired construction companys to do some of the work. We allways hired union. Why? because they got the job done quickly and safely. I can remmeber one job that our company hired a non union company to do the work. It was a joke. It was a company where a man owned it and hired his son and some cousins to work there. They werent hired because they were good workers or were well trained. None had every had an formal training. the job was a joke. They kept adding overages to the price and we once caught the crew smoking pot at lunch hour. that was the last day they were on company property. The union lineman, at least up here are very proficient and hard working. If  there not they dont get called for the next job period. None of them are willing to take up the slack for a non producer and one poor performance at a job sight will brand them for life in the locals around here.  As a matter of fact what ive seen more then once is one of the guys the union about starved out go to non union shops and become foreman because they are the only employees that company can find that have any kind of formal training. Our company found out the hard way that hiring the cheapest labor isnt allways the best. Even in our company the days of unions protecting useless workers is over. Last week our company let two lineman go. One for stoping at a car dealer while working and another for swearing at a boss. Im probably fortunate im out of there now because if they fired me for swearing at the boss i wouldnt have made it off probation! In both cases the union said work rules were violtated and there was nothing to be done about it.

[Tonk]

Hey Graybeard, I guess you NEVER quit eating the food your UNION DADDY put on the table did ya???
You and the rest of the UNION BASHERS this sight can KISS MY ROYAL AMERICAN A$$ and smile!!!
                                            

                                                 

[JamesIII]

Back to the orginal topic, I usually purchased a new pickup every four years. I found fords to hold up well in my hay business, that is until I bought an F350 with a 6.0 diesel. It will take awhile for me to forget that experience! I look at vehicles as a "neccessary evil" in life. JamesIII

[pmeisel]

Tonk -- the 4.0L was a Chrysler inspired redesign of the AMC 4.2L/258CI engine.  That engine was not a Ford engine... but it is highly likely that AMC was copying from an older Ford design (they did and do a lot of that in the industry).

A couple of the Chrysler compacts of the early 80s, and the first Chrysler minivan, were from designs developed within and rejected by Ford, a product planning executive changed companies and brought along his ideas.  The small Chrysler V6 is a close copy of the Ford 3.0L duratec, an engineering manager changed jobs....

back in the 70s and 80s Jeeps could be a hodge podge.  My rebuilt 87 has Ford ignition, a GM power steering gear... that's what I have formally identified.

[Graybeard]

Well, GRAYBEARD, sometimes you gotta due what you gotta due, so management will not run rough shoud over your arse period. Now sounds like your Daddy had some backbone hey!

Missing a pay check for 18 months for a nickel an hour raise is not back bone it's STUPIDITY. None of the families ever fully recovered from the loss from that ignorant strike. It was the beginning of my life long hatred of unions.

[Hooker]

My first Ford was a 48 F 6  I've owned quite few since then.
My little bride drives a new Fusion nice car. Although my daily driver is a Dodge diesel I still have my 79 Bronco.


Pat

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus.....Just so you know Pal, I have only owned about a dozen new automobile's including trucks in past 50 years. I guess all those 50 vehicles you stated you  purchased were Forgein LEMONS HEY!!!

No only two were complete turds

A mid 70's Volkswagen type2 powered buggy $500
and our 2007 Saturn relay $11,000

many of these other rides from cost well under $1000 in fact the $700 95 Pontiac trans sport the saturn replaced was simply a better made rig

.I also can see that $12 dollar an hour sign your holding up, ha ha ha. I made that kind of money in the late 60's at my UNION TRADE.

ARE YOU SERIOUS can you not read?

Really

ARE YOU THAT LOST IN THE 1960's?

My avatar is a picture of "Al Bundy" holding up a sign that says "Shoot me $12"    Which is how I feel sometimes particularly when dealing with Luddites.   I'm not gonna disclose my W2 to ya but I will say that I make SIGNIFICANTLY more than $12 an hour........plus in 13years Ive never been laid off or had to go on "strike"

guys like yourself would be working for bread and water if it were not for UNIONS and UNION SHOPS.

what's that substance that comes out the southbound end of a northbound male cow?

[Skunk]

what's that substance that comes out the southbound end of a northbound male cow?

Not trying to be wise guy Krochus, but a slight correction is needed here. There is no version of a "male cow." Cows are all females, except of course if you've watch the cartoon, Barnyard, with the kids, where male bovines do in fact have udders. Male bovines that are still intact are called Bulls, while castrated male bovines are Steers. 

[Tonk]

UNION LABOR IS STILL GOING STRONG!!!! NOW YOU "RIGHT TO WORK STATES" BEST TAKE NOTICE.

                                                   

[Tonk]

Krochus.......If you must keep calling people names, perhaps you should not respond to the post or topic!
I don't get impressed by your off color whining or the fact you work in a non-union steel shop understand. Pardon me if I don't speak the Kings English but I do stand by my union heritage and the American Flag.

Perhaps you need to sit down and take a deep breath inorder to get your composer back my dear fellow. Now did I miss read your post about the 50 NEW CARS.......or what? It makes no never mind to me sprout and I don't give a Hoot N Nanny how much your making at this non-union steel shop.

Now just so your mind will get the facts, Union Workers are NOT LAZY mister! Now you can put that in your pipe and puff on those facts. The next time you cross a big bridge thank those union workers! The next time you get into a highrise building thank those union workers. They are the backbone of SKILLED LABOR in the USA!!! Oh my gosh!.............I did say SKILLED LABOR pal, something you evidently are NOT nor will be fact. I still LOVE my 2006 FORD SUPERDUTY F-350 4x4 extended cab you betcha.

[R.W.Dale]

The next time you cross a big bridge thank those union workers! The next time you get into a highrise building thank those union workers. They are the backbone of SKILLED LABOR in the USA!!! Oh my gosh!.............I did say SKILLED LABOR pal, something you evidently are NOT nor will be fact.

LOL You just keep stepping right in the middle of it

. NO, You should thank ME because me and my coworkers probably BUILT IT from scratch

Ive built everything from Roof trusses for a Honda plant in Indiana, a BMW plant  to the New York Times Building, from the  Fontainbleu Casino resort in Las vegas to all the crane girders for a new Thyssenkrupp steel mill in Alabama........

one thing I have YET to build is one solitary piece for one of " the big three" of course all their new operations are OVERSEAS.....you know because they care so much about their union worker's future

Most recently we're building THIS


all without a union worker anywhere in sight


All those socialist union hacks do is REASSEMBLE thing out in the field and complain because they can't figure out how it fits together. and of course try to take all the credit...they are indeed quite good at that.

And of course over the past 10years our company has gained greater and greater market share as our union competitors have just about all gone under.  Unions are NOT the backbone of skilled labor, but rather a collectivization of laborers who CAN NOT be successful on their own labor merits as an individual, The union represents everything that's WRONG with the American laborer today.

[Graybeard]

I've been directly involved with unions both as a member and as management having to deal with them. None of the experiences improved my view of them. Sure most or at least some are likely not as bad as what I've dealt with. I've just had LOTS of bad union experiences and zero good.

Once there was an employee who's drinking got him in trouble. He lost his security clearance and was not able to continue the job he had and was about to be fired completely rather than being offered a job. The union came to me and asked me to hire him to my organization as I had an opening at the time at the same pay grade he held. He ended up getting a promotion later in my operation. That same union guy later did everything in his power to include lying and bribing other employees of mine to lie about me trying to get me fired. Why? Cuz his wife brought a squirrel they illegally kept as a pet to work and let it get loose in the office causing much disruption and employee discontent.

All I did was tell her never to bring it to work again and made her aware that in Alabama keeping a game animal without a permit from the state was illegal and a fine able offense so they might want to consider what they really wanna do witht he squirrel. Hell I took no disciplinary action against her and in no way did the event reflect negatively on her record. But from that day until I retired the union did everything in their power to get me fired all with no effect as I was a straight by the book manager and could back up and prove all my actions were proper.

You can't do a favor to the union and expect even fair treatment from them as I found out then and many other times. There were no issues other than salary on the table long ago in that strike dad and hundreds of others were out of work over. They were trying to get a dime and after 18 months without pay got a nickel and hour to show for it. Sorry that's STUPID any way you cut it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think one big mistake is being made here. Were lumping! Im guilty too. I said that we had a crew that was smoking dope on the job so all non union crews are crap. Others are doing the same about the unions. You cant call union people (or non union) bad because of your experience with one or two bad apples. Ive yet to see a work place in my life that didnt have one or two idiots along for a free ride. Good thing is anymore they dont last whether it be union or non union. Bad thing is ive seen union employees promoted that didnt deserve the job but then ive seen non union business that gave promotions to the biggest but kisser on the site or the bosses nephew. So which way is right?  the one thing i will stand behind totaly is that the lifestyle we lead her in the good old USA is in big part due to the unions fighting years ago for a fair wage for workers. If you dont believe that or want to argue it youd best take the blinders off. I guess my point is that the world has become a very complicated place. What was black and white 30 years ago isnt now. Ive worked at both non union and union jobs and have also worked civil service and was in the military. I spent most of my life as a union employee and am glad i was. If you have ACTUALL experiece with either side your opinion means something to me but i just here to much union bashing from guys that are just plain jealous because there making less then a union employee makes doing the same job. Lots of non union lineman down south that are working for half what we made. Personaly I wouldnt do that job for what they make but then thats there choise and its yours too. Most people find there jobs within a few miles of where they grow up. They dont choose a job because its union or non union they choose it because thats all they can find in the area. As to strikes ill go this route with you. Ive been on strike 3 times in my carreer. once we actually made out ok. The thing is maybe we went back to soon. In our union anyway its done on a vote so if you went back and didnt make out its your own fault. Another thing too is that nobody is making you stay. During the last strike i was in on two of my friends both with familys packed up and moved out west and go jobs there. Yes both were union jobs. If your on strike and dont believe in it you allways have the right to quit. Peronaly i wouldnt bat an eyelash at doing it if my family wasnt getting fed. Theres also no law against getting a part time job while your on strike. I went back and worked in the woods during my strikes and made decent money. Bottom line is my family was never without anything because of a strike. Like i said you wont find many union people bad mouthing unions what you will find is non union and ex union people doing it.

[Graybeard]

I'm not really trying to paint with a broad brush stroke Lloyd just reporting personal experiences with unions that I've been associated with in my life time and all those experiences have been bad. I can pass no judgment on any union I've had no association with. However my long and bad history with them have soured me on unions in general.

I fully agree there was a time when they were very necessary and did a lot of good for both workers and the country. Honestly tho I tend to think the days when they were needed has passed and that now as a whole they do more harm than good. That is not to say some in some areas don't do good only that taken as a whole nation wide more harm than good comes from them. That they ALWAYS back the most liberal dumocrap candidates who are voting against everything this nation stands for is a large part of why I say that. If they would stick to taking care of employees at the job level and stay the hell out of politics I'd feel less harsh toward them. They've grown too big and forgotten what they were established for it seems to me.

[R.W.Dale]

the one thing i will stand behind totaly is that the lifestyle we lead her in the good old USA is in big part due to the unions fighting years ago for a fair wage for workers.

I will actually agree with this in the context of the times at the beginning of the last century or the end of the 19th.

But what unions fail to grasp is you can only get so much blood from an employer. After a point you're making more $ at the expense of future hiring or shoving your employer out of the country all together. In other words they've priced themselves plumb out of work.

Unions may have pushed up wages way back when but if unions had disappeared 30 years ago there would be many more Americans working today in the industries they pretend to care so much about.