SHTF gun.....

[Swampman]

The whole Rambo mentality makes me LMAO.  Avoid conflict & people if you wish to live more than a few hours.

[Lloyd Smale]

no rambo here. Its been many years since i had to defend myself and God willing it will never happen again. But I still will be prepared. My wife thinks im nuts for storing food and water too and maybe i am but this world is a very shaky place right now and it wouldnt take but a small change to set off a disaster and id rather be called rambo now then starve then. If nothing else anyone who has eyes can see that someday its going to happen. the population of earth is to high now and is growing every day. If you think 50 years from now we will have enough food for everyone when we dont now you have blinders on. Also there are more and more people that want to restrict guns and a good reason for it is they know someday crap will hit the fan and they dont want you on equal ground with them. At least when im in the ground i will know that my grandkids at least will have a gun or two passed on to each to defend there familys. My wife asked me why i need 7 ars and i told her just that. Someday soon you can about bet you wont be able to buy them and each of my grandkids will inherit one.

[Swampman]

Nothing wrong with being prepared but an assualt rifle is the wrong choice.

[Dee]

Swampy please define "assault rifle".

[Swampman]

Any modern military clone that doesn't fire full auto.

[Dee]

So in 1865 the Springfield Trapdoor 4570 by your definition was an "assault rifle"?

[Swampman]

Is it a modern military clone?

[teamnelson]

I would concur with swampy in spirit. The modern military rifle has become a maintenance nightmare when compared to that 1865 trapdoor. Survivalism drives me to avoid complexity.

ACOGs and ARs are used by our military, sure, BUT in an age where there is an enormous support system in place to keep them operational. And with higher failure rates than previous platforms, which are compensated for by tactical employment of a squad. Anecdotally, 1 in 7 weapons will be combat ineffective in a given firefight, for anything from poor maintenance to damage. It's ok for the military though because they can take it to an armorer who can repair or replace from a stockpile of parts which are replenished by a supply chain. I don't have that at home.

If you want to simulate combat, here's something I saw in every single one of hundreds of patrols in Iraq. Take your ACOG equipped AR and sight it in. Zip tie it to the rail in a figure 8 ... you'll thank me later. Now run over broken terrain tired, hot, hungry with your adrenals amped and drop for cover a few times. Drop your weapon from 3 ft height, bang it while slung against a wall. Now go check your point of aim, it will be off, they always are. What's the point of a 4x optic that's already 2-5moa off

That's survival conditions that I'm familiar with so I avoid complex systems. I also plan to have to abandon my home at some point on foot which also requires simplicity as I can only carry so much. YMMV

[Dee]

TN, I would have to pretty much agree with you on most all points, however I also believe that soldiers to day are far less weapon wise as they were even no further back than Vietnam. i.e. AWARE of protecting it, as you life depends on it. Not all but many were not raised to think that way, like my generation and older.

[jcn59]

I enjoy reading this thread because it's an area I have zero experience with, but please clarify:  Who is the perceived enemy?  Is it government troops?  USA or foreign?  Is it your neighbors?  Who are you arming yourself against?

Nelson says he "plans on leaving his house at some point".  Does he plan on taking his family with him?   Will he entrust their safety to others when he leaves his house?

Is this a "John Rambo" excercise that occurs in some part of the country where you have no ties, no family, no relatives, no friends?   Not much talk of keeping one's family & friends safe, just saving your own behind.

[teamnelson]

jcn, I can only speak for myself, but my plan includes my family ... I have posted other threads on how that works out for me specifically in choice of a weapon and other subjects. I do not expect my wife and children to become armorers, which they would have to in order to maintain a complex weapon. I do not expect them to become snipers, or learn to manage recoil ... so high caliber and 12 ga shotguns are off the table for me. And I am hopeful that if I do my part and we survive, that my choice of weapon will still be useful for a few more generations until such time as perhaps manufacturing is restored.

As for who I am arming myself against, I can only assume based on what has happened in the wake of every other natural disaster in the last months and years all over the world, that places get real dangerous after a natural disaster or during civil unrest. Lot of folks raped and killed in Haiti, New Orleans, Chile ... I don't want my wife and kids to be in that scenario. And given the state of our nation today, I cannot expect help to arrive in a timely fashion, so in fine American tradition I plan to be self-sufficient.

I do plan on moving as that is a reasonable expectation if things drag out. Community is vital, but as I've witnessed, people that live next door are not necessarily "neighbors." So if it becomes difficult to remain at home, I would hope to move to a community situation, and so that means I should plan to be useful to that community in some capacity beyond toting a gun, and eating food.

I concur that many survivalists sound like they're arming themselves for a biker fantasy novel, forting up with the lone wolf bros, maintaining a harem and preying on the weak. Not me; its guys like that I expect I'll be defending my family from.

[jcn59]

Thanks, Nelson.  That was a thoughtful response which answered my questions.

I'm  concerned that the anarchy we currently live under will lead to things we don't want to see, and I have also done some things to prepare.  The present administration, lead by a man unfamiliar with life in a free country, followed by the mob which used to be our congress, is very dangerous. 

I told others that the 08 election could possibly be our last presidential election, but they were too busy to listen,  watching "Southpark" or whatever it's called. 

If nazi Pelosi & Reid get really worried about the outcome of the Nov. election, look for them to get obama out of office any way they can, followed by "race" riots, and a postponement of the Nov. election which will certainly cost them thier positions after the dust settles.

[jlwilliams]

TN, I make a point of reading your posts.  Not just because you say things I tend to agree with, but also your way with words.  "....arming themselves for a biker fantasy novel...."  Man, that's right on and funny too.

  Perfect case in point, I was reading a thread on another forum regarding good survivalist genre books.  I reccomended "No Surrender" and "The Long Walk".  I read quite a few people mention a series of books "The Survivalist"  OK, I'll bite.  I picked up a couple of the series for low dollars on Ebay.  Save your money.  "Biker fantasy novel" sums them up.  The sight I was cruising will remain un named for the moment, but I still drop by for a chucle nw and again.  Besides, you never know when or where you will find a useful tidbit of information.

[Swampman]

My son and I once got stuck while hunting.  We were rescued my about 12 Alabama National Guardsmen in a Humvee.  Their pretty M-16A2s were piled one on top of another in the middel of the bed like trash and covered in sand.  It made me want to cry.

I agree that a Trapdoor is a better choice for a SHTF firearm than the trash they pass of as a combat weapon these days.  Lots of time spent with the M-16A2 and the Colt Target Sporter.......not impressed.  As long as they are perfectly clean they run.  When they ain't they don't.

[243dave]

Please don't take this the wrong way fellows but I thought this thread was about SHTF guns.  Most of the post written lately are about avoiding people and using single shot rifles.  I agree that avoiding people would be best, but what if a group of people were bent on getting what you got?  Do you really believe that a trapdoor is a better choice than a AR or a AK ??  I have been in tempertures from -50 to 140 degrees F with a M-16 A2 and have not had a problem with them and live ammo, blank ammo you train with is another story. With proper maintainance a M-16A2/M-4  can be as dependable as any other rifle.  The only rifle I ever had let me down while stationed in Alaska was a Ruger M-77.  And it wasn't the rifles fault it was mine.  A rifle can collect a lot of condensation inside its bolt when being taken in and out of a warm vehicle several times into -45 degree F.  Long story short, ice got in my bolt and cost me a nice caribou, the firing pin would not hit the primer.  My take on the whole SHTF gun is get one(or more) that is suitable for the worst situation and hope you never need it.  A high capacity auto is a big advantage when up against more than one enemy.  Seems to me Lloyd Smale has a great plan.  By the way my SHTF rifle is a AR with lots of 30rd mags and iron sights, nothing fancy just dependable.  Now if it was just supressed........   Dave       

[teamnelson]

dave, when I think shtf I think long term, macro picture. Force on force with an armed group ... to me ... is a short term, micro picture scenario. I would hope to avoid it in the extreme, and I do not relish the thought of it even once.

Here's why: my family are not combat veterans like myself. I fully anticipate that my wife and daughter will not handle taking another person's life in any circumstance, and I'm not certain my son will either. I would expect that an armed group attacking my family would not have as strong reservations. Combat research has proven that regardless of the scenario, most people do not have the mental fortitude to take aimed shots on another human being; and the world's best combat training has not overcome that innate reservation. Never mind firing when fired upon. Simmunition training (really hard paintballs) helps overcome the body's desire to curl up in the fetal when hit, but even then its no guarantee. Regardless of what you might think about Iraq and Afghanistan, the actual shot to kill ratio isn't very good among infantry ... trained, experienced infantry. I cannot expect better from my family, no matter how many hi-cap mags I feed 'em. Having a healthy (real) understanding of my resources and limitations, I know what I can effectively execute with my family in a crisis and that's asymmetrical/maneuver tactics, so we will be moving on foot at some point. That's my family; yfmv.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot 10s of thousands of rounds through ar both as a civilain and working for uncle sam. I also have more guns and probably do more shooting then most on this fourm. I can about bet a dime to a dollar on one thing. When i shoot an ar its seldom a day where i take out less then 500 rounds some of my ars have round counts way over 50000. Sure ive broke a part of two but my bet would be take a marlin out and shoot that many rounds through it and see what you have left. Even a bolt gun. I about know the barrel will need replacing the firing pin spring and the pin itself will probably be trash. Now go out in a survial situation and find those parts and a gunsmith capable of changing them. An ar is a RELIABLE gun and any part on it can be replace easily. A spare bolt and carrier and a spare lower parts kit will keep an ar running for about ever. In a shoot to it fails test id about bet the ar would run with anything. Well maybe not an ak. These are good guns thats why so many of them are finding there way into the hunting field. compare one to a reminton semi auto 742. I doubt theres been one of those made that went a 1000 rounds without trouble. The ars are also just as accurate as a good bolt again where the remintons and even the brownings fall short. Sorry guys but the only way id use a single shot or bolt for a survial tool is if it was the only gun i had or could afford. Ive said this before too about optics on ars. If they and there mounts are so unreliable why is it that soldiers beg for them. Youd think that if they were fallling off all the time they sure wouldnt bet there lives on it. Sure it can happen. Ive broke even open sights on sixguns and rifles. Again thats where the ars really shine. A set of back up sights and all you do is pop it off and go. Heck even if it was so dirty it jammed ever other round i could clear it and still get off shots as fast as a bolt and faster then any SPRINGFIELD Yup they said cars and airplanes were just a fad too. Go out and put 10000 rounds thorugh one and come back and id about bet you sing a differnt tune.

[Lloyd Smale]

One more thing while im ranting. I just hope if a angy mob or a couple of thugs show up at my place to take my food or supplys that there armed with springfields and nei single shot rifles. It will sure make defending my family easier and on the same note id feel pretty insecure if a couple of guys were opening up on me with ars and all i had to defend my family was a single shot rifle! If you cant aford an ar or an ak or even an sks its a pity as I believe everyone should have at least one proper gun to defend there family. If you truely cant afford it bring what youve got but Id about bet that most guys here that claim they cant afford one have motorcyles boats or other toys that cost a hell of alot more. Oh well maybe if you park your harley out front with the keys in it they will hop on it and leave. Now go out and find me ONE man that has actually seen combat that wants to be armed with a single shot gun when crap hits the fan. Take your time.

[Dee]

In 20 years of L.E. I can assure you the shoot to kill and actually HIT ratio isn't very good either. Why? Stress of the situation, individual personality, and lack of training. I was a weapons trainer for 19 of those years including SWAT. These facts are not new. The only uniqueness of Afghanistan, and Iraq are geographical location. Shooting is still shooting, and killing is still killing.
I have carried the AR15, and M16 configured rifles for 20 years in river bottoms in wet, sandy, conditions and also below zero winter, and have never had a failure. I believe there is a reason for that. Anytime I wasn't busy, I was maintaining my weapon.
I also doubt very many have seen more combat conditions than my youngest son. He was a Sgt in the 82nd Airborne, with a combat tour in Afghanistan, and two combat tours in Iraq. He was in the field most of the time. Because of my job, he grew up around the AR15 & M16. I taught him what I had learned. MAINTAIN YOUR WEAPON. I reminded him of this when he left on his first tour, and he drilled it into his squad. In sustained fire fights he personally never had a failure, and he stated that he saw few if any failures in his squad, but others on other teams did experience failures, and it was usually due to DENIED failure to maintain.
The AR15-M16 is a machine, and like any other machine it must be maintained. ANY RIFLE will quit if it is ignored.
One only has to read these forums to see where most of the FAILURES are in long arms. There are far more "whats wrong" questions on other rifles than the AR type platforms. I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm saying know your weapon, and maintain it, and life is good. I have been practicing that for about 50 years with much success.
And I for one would not be here today, had I been carrying a single shot rifle. Many a frontiersman disappeared into historical oblivion because of having a one shot at a time rifle. My ancestors (Cherokee) kept their bows and arrows and carried a single shot rifle, because it was a SINGLE SHOT rifle. When the repeaters made the scene, some of the most practical people to ever inhabit the planet abandoned the bow and arrow and picked up the repeater. As technology changes, we must change.
I would not want to go up against two or there thugs armed with dirt cheap AK47s with a my Winchester, and that Springfield Trapdoor I mentioned. Tactics will only get you so far, and I made my living USING and TEACHING tactics.JMTCW

[Lloyd Smale]

well said Dee as usual. Heres something to look at http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=417648 Bill im sorry about a link to another forum but this just fits.

[jlwilliams]

  Maintenance, without it you can even jam a Trapdoor or a revolver.  Years ago when police carried revolvers in leather holsters, there were mechanical failures in S&W wheel guns from rust.  I'm not making that up.  My grandfather who was a police officer in Lincoln Massachussets (rural, little to no crime in any given year) told me about having a workbench set up at the annual department wide pistol qualification event.  Some guys left their guns holstered the whole year so they needed to be taken apart, cleaned and oiled before shooting.  Leather and steel, a rusty equation.  Grandpa was an infantryman who knew better than that, but there were those who every year promised to do better next year.

  Even the much vaunted NEF single is worthless if you let it rust shut.

  While I do believe that a great deal of practical shooting can be done with a single shot (I've hunted with one successfuly) I don't think I'd want to limit myself to a single if I had only one gun. 

[Dee]

jlwilliams, starting in 1977 I was a police armorer and instructor, and you are precisely on target. For 20 years I watched weapon be ignored, and then the owner act gut shot when the weapon would not fire, or jam. I watched Smith and Wesson, and Colt quality guns refuse to fire, because LAZY OFFICERS would take the easy way out, and wipe it down with WD40, and spay the stuff down into the action. The fish oil in it would turn to varnish, and retard the action so much it would not allow the hammer to fall fast enough to ignite the primer. I once tapped the rounds out of a Combat Masterpiece because they had corroded into the cylinder. The guy was carrying it on duty.
Maintenance is the key, along with AWARENESS to protecting your weapon in all situations at all costs. It is your life line.

[Swampman]

The AR and it's ilk require daily cleaning and oiling.  That's too much IMO.

[Dee]

The AR and it's ilk require daily cleaning and oiling.  That's too much IMO.

You don't know what your talkin about.

[243dave]

Daily maintainace is a must if your life depends on it regardless what type of weapon it is.  If in rainy, wet weather even a single shot requires daily maintainance to prevent rust and ensure proper functioning.  Desert environments is hard on weapons also.  The wind likes to deposit sand in and on every exposed part.  The AR's were designed to be easily disassembled and cleaned by any soldier, smart or dumb.  Mr. Stoner done a good job with his design and its even easily worked on and repaired by someone who has a few tools and a little know how.  I know we will never see eye to eye on the M-16 design but I had to throw in my 2 cents, or has it been 4 cents ??  Dave    

[jmayton]

Their pretty M-16A2s were piled one on top of another in the middel of the bed like trash and covered in sand.  It made me want to cry.

As long as they are perfectly clean they run.  When they ain't they don't.

ARs and it's variants aren't pretty, just utilitarian arms designed to do a job.  Few weapons can handle the amount of rounds in as many different environments with sustained accuracy as the AR.  The AK would be more reliable, just not as accurate.  As for the sandy M-16A2s in the back of the Humvee, I bet they'd still fire.

And as long as firing reliably only when clean. . . not true.  Mine rode around in my jeep (on the outside of the driver's seat, with no doors) for about a month of pig hunting in misty rain, cold, sun, dust, and mud after having several hundred rounds through it.  It still fired every time after that.  In fact, the only FTF I've ever had was because of my handloads not being sized correctly and that was only because the round was stuck in the chamber.


If I didn't have an AR, I'd use whatever I had, but since I have it, I'd choose it over anything else.  Also, my AR with a 30rd mag and scope weighs less than my scoped Handi (which I also love) with 6rds on the buttstock and one in the chamber.  And the AR is more versatile.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup if your shooting a 1000 rounds a day you really need to get some personal experience with one rather then relying on and passing on bs that your read on the internet

The AR and it's ilk require daily cleaning and oiling.  That's too much IMO.

[Hodr]

On the first page I listed 7 qualifiers for SHTF and added that there were other concerns as well.  Dee I am not a trained LEW, Swampman I am not a great hunter or shot.  Long ago and far away, I was trained to small team combat tactics and shot for more than one rifle team.  Now I am an old man who has invested his time, money, and energy in raising kids in a totally urban enviroment.  Now I am an oldusetowasit who sits and frets over returning to days that were raw and red.  I don't know how my wife stayed with me.  At night my dead would visit and it lasted over twenty years.  I have traced too many names on the Arlington Wall, but every tracing helped.  I hope I never again pick up a M 16, I don't want to ever again look into a scope on 30-06 bolt.  Neither do I want to be fodder for a news reel.  If the mob comes to my door I am going to stop at least the first one in the door.  If I can move ahead of that mob, I intend to hide and scoot, but shoot only if I must. 
The firearms I can still handle are those I listed back at the beginning of this topic.  They are right for me, they are the ones I can use to good effect.  Each of us is right.  The weapons of choice are not the crux of SHTF.  The choice is what we can each of us use best, to do the best we can do.  For me it is short range (out to 200 yds)  with weapons and I have proven to myself I can use.  With a body that is no longer capable of a long range patrol, I will do what I can.  My biggest worry is meds, not weapons, without them I will lose the lady I have loved for over 30 years.

blindhari
Sgt, Ranger

[skarke]

You know, it looks like most people are talking about defense weapons.  I wonder if anyone might be considering survivalist type weapons.  Interestingly, a person could do an awful lot with a basic 22 lr handi, or something similar.

Meat hunt
Snipe
Protect crops
Carry a huge amount of ammo long distances

There are super light versions of both single shots and autos in 22 lr that, frankly, I'd prefer if I was in a peri or post apacalyptic world.

Let's face it.  If we are talking about some scenario like the movie "Wolverines", well boys, those days are over.  It won't be long and there will be drone aircraft covering 100% of this country 100% of the time.  Resistance would be costly.

They'll see the resistor and eliminate him before he even knows that he was being watched.  Just take a quick glance at www.futurefirepower.com, and you'll see what I mean.

Any government that has access to $4 Trillion in annual budget is one that should be feared, no matter who is in charge.  Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[skarke]

From www.futurefirepower.com

"The Flybot, a new robotic reconnaissance fly may help keep a more soldiers, and others out of harms way.

Scientists at Harvard have invented a robotic fly to send on reconnaissance missions in areas too dangerous for humans, such as those contaminated by chemical or biological weapons.

It can also be used to find hidden bombs and in search missions.

The “flybot”, which can fit on a fingertip, is made of lightweight carbon and weighs less than a pin.

Researchers, led by Professor Robert Wood, spent seven years on the project with the backing of the US military.

“The real benefit of the fly is that from a military aspect, you probably wouldn’t be able to notice it,” said Prof Wood."

I've spent many hours shooting at Dragon Flys over the years, and even with a scatter gun, my kill ratio is, well, not so good.

How'd you like to be hiding in some urban hole somewhere, "defending" yourself, and George Orwell releases thousands of his Model 1984 flying spies into your crib.

Times, they are a changin'.