41 mag. bullet

[tommy killtrigger]

I have been handgunning for a few years now with a S&W model 57 , 8 3/8" barrel , scoped with a 2x eer leopold scope. I have shot at a deer  for the first time this year, as I am trying to get meat in the freezer. I hit a doe at 20 yds. broadside. I found a blood trail after about 100 yds., and followed until it zeroed out, about 75 yds. As I sat down on a stump to take off my jacket, the doe jumped up from a bed 5 yds. behind me and ran off, no further blood trail was found...so I lost her. Sickening feeling! Two days later I shot 2 does at 30 yds. broadside. The lead doe took a shot and just stood there. Then walked a few feet ahead behind a tree and stood. I took aim at a second doe, hit her broadside as well...she walked 4 feet behind a tree and stood. The lead doe then bounded off in leaping jumps and out of sight. I then shot the second doe again, quartering away from a fixed rest position on a tree..a solid hold...and hit her again at back of ribs angling toward off shoulder. She just walked away and into brush out of sight. I did not see any wound or blood on the second doe, which was shot on both sides! Neither doe acted as if they were shot...they only flinched as if the gun blast disturbed them. No blood was found of either deer. I was using a PCM 210 gr. JHP. My aim is not the problem, and the scope has kept its zero after I went back  check it with 18 shots offhand, and 9 shots from a solid rest at 50 yds.  I could cover 13 0f 18  offhand shots with a 8" pie plate, the other 5 only inches from the group. The 9 "rest held " shots at 50 yds. could be covered by a softball. I am trying to convince myself it is the bullet, not the shooter. I can call a flyer when I target practice, so I know where I am shooting. I just could not believe I could not find 3 deer when shot. With very little blood or none at all. This has been a long story to ask...is it ME or the ammo. If ammo, can I alter the hollow point to get better penetration, somehow. I am trying to save some bucks here. Or what other brand or bullet do you recommend? I do not reload yet. Thanks for your time. Tony!

[Redhawk1]

Sounds odd. If you hit them and you did get penetration into the vitals, they should of went down. Myself, I don't use hollow point bullets, I use hard cast bullets, Barnes bullets which are hollow points but penetrate well. If you only shoot factory loads, go with a soft point and stay away from the hollow points. JMHO.

[wyozx]

I've gotten good accuracy and pentration with Speer 210 gr Gold Dots on antelope. However I think I'd try Federal Cast Core 250gr factory loads since you don't reload. They should give you the penatration and blood trail that you need. The 41 mag will do a fine job with the right bullet. Good hunting!

[Sweetwater]

Both previous posts +1

The 41Mag is as good as any for what you are doing. I've shot a few deer with mine, and a score of antelope, at ranges from several feet to "too far to say". "Never" needed the 2nd shot, nor a blood trail. Always down within sight. Ditto on the cast bullets, though I did have favorable performance from 210gr Sierra JHC.
If I were shooting at 20 yards, I'd be taking head shots, or at least neck shots, especially if I were using a scope. Most of my shooting was done with open sights and one particular buck antelope stood up at 95 yards; I punched a 220gr cast bullet into his shoulder and he went right back down into his bed. Never got up again. Bullet selection and shot placement will undoubtedly cure the problem. As posted, the Federal cast core 250gr will serve you well if you don't handload. If you don't handload, you should.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Graybeard]

I would not rule out shooter error. On the first it sounds much like a gut shot rather than heart/lung area shot. On the other two it does sound like complete misses to me. No blood at all would make me think miss as would the deer's reactions.

Setting that aside however I do not trust the .41 magnum and 210 JHPs. I have limited game experience with them admittedly but what I do have was dismal. I used a 4" S&W Mtn. Gun to finish off a hog wounded the previous evening on a night hunt as I was the only one with a gun and it was all I had with me that morning. It took many shots and penetration wasn't adequate to do any real damage to the hog which was around 200 pounds. I did finally get enough lead into it to slow it down enough to approach to where I could get a standing head shot which finally ended the fiasco. Both penetration and damage done by the bullets were minimal and convinced me 210 JHPs are not hog medicine and I question whether they are deer medicine as well.

I suspect that a properly placed broadside shot would get to the lungs on deer tho and a lung shot deer is a dead deer no matter what it's shot with even a .22LR. I would not depend on 210 JHPs to exit however so if hit high you might not find blood unless you trailed them a long way and it does not sound to me like you did that. If you persist in use of the .41 Magnum (I didn't and got rid of both mine shortly after that incident) I'd switch to heaiver hard cast bullets of around 240 grains or more. With them you should at least get penetration and a blood trail to follow. The Winchester Platinum which I think is a 240 or 250 grain JHP is about the only JHP I'd trust in the .41 magnum.

[Lloyd Smale]

Bill made some good points. I too have seen 41 mags with hps fail on hogs. They do sometimes lack penetration but a hit in the right place should have given enough pentration on a deer to make a kill. Possibly you hit it and it bled inside and didnt leak out and you gave up a bit to soon on the trail. When i loose a blood trail i will spend hours making circles larger and larger and most times will either find the animal dead or a refind the blood trail. A cast bullet will insure a good blood trail as about everytime they give an entranace and an exit wound but you will probably most times get less reaction for a deer hit by one and very seldom do they dump an animal in there tracks so you can about count on tracking them at least a little ways. Personaly im not a big fan of the 41 and prefer the 44 but when I do hunt with one of my 41s i usualy use a bullet i dont care for in anything else. A cast wfn. I think with the smaller diameter of the 41 compared to the 44 and 45 a wfn does tend to close the gap on close range performance on deer bear and pigs.

[Dave in WV]

tommy, put up a full size color paper deer target like archers practice with. See if you are shooting center of mass. I had that problem and started practicing with the deer targets and broke the habit. I was trained to shoot center mass in the military and while I never had the problem with a rifle I did with my .44 mag revolver.

[Bearcat 74]

I don't have a .41 anymore but the one I used to have the Federal 250 Cast Core were the most accurate factory load I tried.  The Winchester 175gr Silver Tip was accurate too, but no way I would have hunted with it.

[sixshot]

  The shot description is a little puzzling & I also question whether they were good hits or perhaps too far back resulting in a gut shot deer. I'm a die hard cast bullet guy but I would think a decent HP even in the entestines would cause that deer to hump up, run off a ways & lay down, allowing the shooter to finish the job.
  Three weeks ago I had a guy with me that said he had shot at an elk but shot high, over it & all the elk just walked off. I found his gut shot elk the next day, if he would have given me any indication of a possible hit I could have saved that elk.
  So I'm thinking the shots weren't placed right, that or the PMC ammo is pretty crappy stuff, don't know, I never use factory ammo.
  I've probably taken as much game with a 41 magnum  as anybody & that includes elk & I've seen one bull moose taken with one shot with the 41 using a 230 gr cast slug, if its too small for deer/elk then a 44 sure isn't the answer, I also prefer the 44 just because I like it but there's almost no difference in the game fields with correct ammo. Some will say you can use heavier slugs & you can, but if I can't recover a 230 gr or 250 gr cast slug from elk why would I need a 300 grainer?
  I'd say try some different ammo & keep practicing. Where do you live that you can shoot so many deer in one day?

Dick

[tommy killtrigger]

I live in NC...allows 2 deer a day possession ...6 does a year...2 bucks a year. I am sure shooter error is present, as in all situations. I will try some hard cast 250 grain loads. Thanks for all the careful insight into my problem. Thanks for each persons response. Keep practicing! Tony!

[Larry Gibson]

Tommy

I get to NC a lot and have seen the "deer" there.  They are not very big to say the least, particularly in the eastern part of the state.  Your stated off hand groups are more than "minute of deer, at least minute of vital area on most NC deer I have seen (I just returned from there 2 days ago and saw numerous deer taken by hunters).  I usually don't disagree with Graybeard and Lloyd but in this case I will.  There is a heck of difference between a 200 pound pig and a NC deer, even a large western deer as far as "penetration" goes.  I have been using the .41 Magnum since '75 in various revolvers with barrels from 4 to 8 3/8ths inches.  I've never found penetration, even with fast stepping 170-210 HPs to be a problem even on severe raking shots (a Texas heart shot is something I don't do).  My current .41 is a very nice Ruger Bisley with 7 1/2" barrel.  It has yet to fail to give adequate penetration with 200 -210 gr XTP, Rem 210 SPs, etc. even on 150-200 lb hogs.  However, I will say that barrel length and velocity play an important role in bullet performance/terminal ballistics with the .41 just as they do with any other handgun cartridge.  However, you have a 8 3/8ths inch barrel so velocity  should not be an issue with the PMC ammo.

To address what I believe to be the problem; I notice in all of your posts you say you "shot the doe/deer".  You do not say specifically where you shot the doe/deer.  Shot placement is critical.  Just "shooting" the doe/deer may not get the job done unless the bullet hits a vital area.  You have probably found this out the hard way.  I suggest you aim to put the bullet through a soft ball size area that lies in the lower third of the chest between the front legs.  This is where the heart and the major arteries are in the lungs.  A bullet, even a non expanding one, put through that soft ball (Iuse that size given the size of NC deer) sized area will result in a very dead deer quickly.  If you can not put the bullet into that softball sized area (given the steadiness of your hold and the range) then do not take the shot.  From your description of the "shot" deer it is obvious you just are not putting the bullet into the vital area.  To succeed and to be ethical in hunting you must be able to put the bullet where it counts, not just hit the deer.  Practice some more, understand your limitations and stay within them.  Put the bullet into the heart/lung and the deer will be yours.

Larry Gibson 

[Bullseye]

I have shot 4 deer with a 41 Mag
Out of a Contender - Went straight down
Out of a Contender - Went about 10 yards
Out of a Rifle - Went about 10 yards
Out of a Rifle - Went about 50 yards

All were pass throughs in the vitals right behind the front leg with a 210 gr. XTP.  Based on my experiences I cannot believe that if you hit the deer where you needed to that they would not have been killed.

The debate goes on that a 357 is not big enough for deer, some post in this thread are saying that a 41 is not enough.  In a few more years we will all be shooting 454, 460 or 500's because the 44 will not be big enough either.

You say you hit the one doe twice and described where at, but then said you could not see a wound.  I am confused.

[Redhawk1]

I have taken a lot of deer with a 357 Mag, but shot placement was dead on, and bullets were hard cast.
With that combination they will die all the time.

The only reason I shoot bigger rounds these days is, I like bigger holes, not that there needed, but more they are wanted.. 

[ELMO]

   Shot placement is really the key for quick kills. I didn't have an opportunity with my Ruger .41 mag hunter this past season, but with my Marlin 1894fg I took a Doe and a coyote. The Doe went only a couple yards and just dropped, the shot was thru both lungs and part of the liver. The coyote was shot tru the shoulders and flopped around some then expired. The bullet I was using was the Speer 210gr GDHP and had complete pass thru on both animals. My granson took a 5 pointer with his .357mag Handi and he was shooting the 158gr Remington SP bullet. The shot was 40 yards and went thru both lungs and the buck only went about 50 yards and died. My oldest son using a Mossberg 695 12ga. slug gun shooting Hornady SSt slugs took out a 6 point at about 100 yards and that deer went about 50 yards, another double lung shot. My youngest son using Handi a .44 mag rifle, shot a 7 point at a distance of about 50 yards using the Hornady 240gr XTP bullet and the deer was hit right behind the shoulder and it went about 50 yards before going down. All these deer were taken this past November and what I like to stress to my sons and grandson is to have a solid rest when taking the shot. A bad hit on a deer and that deer will probably die, but they can go a long distance before expiring. Like I said shot placement means alot....

[Autorim]

I agree with Larry Gibson and sixshot. I think it is a shot placement issue. No matter what the angle of shooting, the path of the bullet needs to pass through the heart lung area - which as Larry said  - is about the size of a softball.

[Autorim]

Tommy,

If you Google whitetail deer anatomy or look on images of whitetail deer you will see that the heart lies almost directly in line with and between the front legs - same for nearly any game animal. I think many hunters shoot deer too far back and only hit the rear portion of the lungs or the liver. Both can result in a long tracking job. A gut shot is a REALLY long tracking job.

Ken

[tommy killtrigger]

Just ordered a box of  Federal 250 gr. cast core ammo. I am going to be forced to reload. I will continue to practice and aim for the front shoulder. I had been placing shots at center body a few inches behind the front leg, evidently not a great spot. I just hate to learn at the expense of the deer. I do not want to be a sloppy hunter. On reloading, will small pistol primers work on 41 mag loadings. I have 6500 of them, as well as 4 pound cans of Unique and 3 cans of 2400...all new and unopened, purchased at an estate auction. Will this powder work as well for the 41?  I have no reloading equipment as of yet, but am building up my way there. Again, thanks to each for your help...Tony!

[sixshot]

  Now you're talking! You will need large pistol primers for your 41 maggie, use the unique powder for your practice loads (all summer) & use the 2400 for serious work when you are comfortable with them. Its easy to slip a shot behind the diaphram on deer, you have to go through the shoulders or stay very close.
  All the deer you mentioned were close so stay around 50 yds or less with your summer practice.

Dick

[Autorim]

I also think that a common misconception is that a shot in line with the leg will break the shoulders. Such is not the case. The scapula and humerus both angle forward on most four footed animals and a shot in line with the leg will be in the open angle formed by these major bones. That's why bow hunters can place an arrow there and have a good chance of going between two ribs for much better penetration and access to the heart and all of the major blood vessels which enter and exit the top of the heart. The lungs wrap the heart on both sides.

When I first started hunting, I tended to shoot too far back. You can get by with a more rearward shot with a high speed expanding rifle bullet due to greater hydrostatic shock. A cast bullet or solid which kills by penetration needs to be placed more accurately.

I have seen many advertising photos in hunting magazines with illustrations viewed through scopes with the crosshairs placed in the middle of the deer which will result in a rear lung, liver or gut shot - not good for our sport. Knowledge of anatomy of the game we hunt is critical to success.

Ken

[kgb]

You can see the photos of a doe I shot this year with my .41 Mag FA revolver in that forum, and that the shots hit low.  I was in a treestand I hadn't intended on hunting from that day, and didn't get my reprogramming to aim higher to compensate for the angle.  Plenty of blood from this deer to trail, but let's call it a shot too low if also a little far back.

The deer I shot with my T/C and the same load/bullet (170gr Sierra) was hit behind the diaphragm as well, and that bullet chugged right on through both sides so there was plenty of trail to follow--he was dead when we found him over 100yds from where he was hit.

The one I shot with a 200gr Speer 3/4 jacket was a mistake on my part in trying to add a little last bit of steadying to my aim by pressing my hands between my knees (reclined sitting against a log) and that threw the shot way off, into the hind leg.  That bullet penetrated like a solid is described to perform, but I've read that those bullets do just that.  That deer took off and went over 100yds to lay down and was nearly gone from blood loss when I found her.  I've been pleased with my ability to hit where I'm aiming with each of these handguns, but two of the mistakes I have made have been holding on the wrong point.  One was not compensating for shooting from a stand, the other was from being afraid to hold too close to the shoulder as I didn't want to hit bone.  Mental errors I and the game can do without.

Here's some interesting .41 reading http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/41magnum.htm

[Larry Gibson]

Just ordered a box of  Federal 250 gr. cast core ammo. I am going to be forced to reload. I will continue to practice and aim for the front shoulder. I had been placing shots at center body a few inches behind the front leg, evidently not a great spot. I just hate to learn at the expense of the deer. I do not want to be a sloppy hunter. On reloading, will small pistol primers work on 41 mag loadings. I have 6500 of them, as well as 4 pound cans of Unique and 3 cans of 2400...all new and unopened, purchased at an estate auction. Will this powder work as well for the 41?  I have no reloading equipment as of yet, but am building up my way there. Again, thanks to each for your help...Tony!

Tommy

Your understanding of the concept is improving however, you're still not quite grasping the concept.  The objective is not to shoot the shoulder but to shoot what lies (the heart and major aterial area of the lungs) low in the chest cavity between the legs (brodside shot).  You need to put your bullet through that vital area not the "shoulder".  The "shoulder" is a very large part of the deer.  If you hit high but don't hit the spine then the deer is simply hih lung shot and will still go a long ways.  Also there is not a high joint in the "shoulder" to break and the leg will not be much impared either. If the deer is quarting toward or away from you minimally then shooting the shoulder also will miss the vital area.  Shooting the "shoulder" on a severely quartering deer will result in a flesh wound or a gut shot deer, both of which will go a long ways.  What I'm saying here is that "shooting the shoulder" is not the answer either.

The answer is to but the bullet through the vital area regardless of what angle the deer is to you (up, down, broadside, quartering, straight on or a combination of such).  I suggest you start by looking through some hunting magazines at different deer pictures.  Envision where that heart/lung vital area is and what specific spot you would have to aim to put a bullet through there.  Also note where the bullet would have gone with a "shoulder shot".  You will see the difference with little difficulty and quickly understand that there is no single for sure aiming spot on a deer.  Then, when you are hunting and see a deer, envision where the heart/lung vital area is and what spot on the deer youshould aim at to hit the vital heart lung area.  Then aim at that spot and if the deer hasn't moved then smoothly pull the trigger and the deer will be yours. 

Note; I mentioned "if the deer has not moved".  Deer are fidgety little critters like most at the bottom of the food change.  If the deer moves a quick reassessment may very well be needed with another aiming spot on the deer selected to put the bullet throught the heart/lung vitals.  You must be able to quickly make that assessment and adjust your aim to the new spot.  Practice at it by looking at different pictures and you will get proficient really quick.  One last note; the "spot" you pick to aim at should be smaller or the same size as the dot in your sight.  Anything larger leaves room for too much slop.  Keep at it and you'll get there.

Larry Gibson

[Tonk]

I have had issues with both the .41magnum and .44magnum in pistols when I used hollow point bullets! I started out using the Sierra Hollow Cavity in the .44 mag and even that bullet when used in my Ruger Carbine sometimes left me wondering about my marksmanship at 30 yards. The deer just took off like his tail was lite up with gasoline.

I have since then learned of the values of hardcast bullets and large metplates on those bullets. It makes a big difference when hunting big game animals at closer ranges, especially with a handgun. A .41mag is a very good deterent on two legged critters at 30 yards but I do like my hardcast bullets for big game.

In the heat of excitement, it is often easy to miss the vitals of a deer or other animal at 30 with a handgun. Practice practice and more good practice sessions are the only way to stop mishaps in marksmanship.  

[jhalcott]

http://www.deerhunting.ws/deeranatomy.htm
  This should be a site showing the deer's anatomy. You can see where the leg forms the triangle mentioned above!

[Graybeard]

Technically speaking the deer and other four legged critters have no shoulder at least not as we think of it in human terms which is what I think most of us are thinking of. I've brought the skeleton photo forward at the bottom.

The deer's leg bones are not in any way directly connected to the rest of the deer's skeleton as it is on a human. There is no shoulder joint or socket and ball arrangement as we have. It's why a deer shot there can keep using that leg to motivate.

Note that wide plate at the top of the deer's leg. That is what I think most are thinking of when they say shoulder on a deer. A hit there most often also takes out the spine. It's most often called a "high shoulder shot" on the TV shows of hunting. It works IF properly executed but note how far it really is from the vitals meaning heart/lung. Ya best not misplace it.

 

[tommy killtrigger]

Thanks to each for your help...I was thinking of too broad of an area in which to kill a deer. I will be more focused and aim properly for that softball sized area at the correct angle presented . Tony!

[Sweetwater]

Hey Tony-

Wish we were neighbors, I love the 41Mag! You may want to check the threads for the pics of the cow elk that was taken with a 41Mag Ruger Blackhawk Bisley this Fall. It was a great write-up.
Frank Petrini labeled the 41 as The Dependable Magnum in a magazine article he penned about 30 years ago. I bought my first Blackhawk 41Mag in 1980. It has been dependable for me. Take your time, and give it time. The 41Mag is worthy of that. It's the caliber you have chosen, so take the steps to make it work for you. Lots of good stuff on this thread, except stuff that says it isn't enough for deer (see elk story above). Some of that depends on who is behind the trigger. Most of the "good press" comes from guys who have had decades of experience with the 41Mag and didn't quit on it because of some particular circumstance. Face it. Twenty thousandths of diameter and 100fps of velocity is not going to change putting venison in the freezer. Bullet selection and shot placement will. I believe you have witnessed one or both of those events. I like it and it does what I want it to do. Guys have told you to go out and shoot stuff, "after" you practice, practice, practice. And YES, we encourage you to take up reloading so that you can practice, practice, practice. Taking up IHMSA or NRA match shooting can help your "hunting shots" if you don't get caught up in the competition and use match guns instead of your hunting gun. When I started shooting IHMSA, I used my same Blackhawk 41Mag that I hunted with. I shot standing through production, revolver, and unlimited courses with the same revolver. I started in "A" class and after 3 years moved up into "AA" class. Never got any better than that, but my hunting shots got a LOT better! AND I like standing on my feet and shooting my revolver. The animal silhouete targets can help your shot placement if you concentrate on shot placement in the kill zone and not just aim at center of mass. Becoming a good revolver shot takes a lot of practice. Staying a good revolver shot takes a lot of practice!
I still love my Blackhawk 41Mag, but I can't shoot it like I used to as I don't take the time or have the place to engage in that kind of practice. I for sure don't take shots today that would have been 'just another shot' a few years ago. As 'Dirty Harry' said, 'a man needs to know his limitations'. I agree, but would add, 'and stay within them'. You've got some foundation to work from, and with what has been already posted here, you've got a wealth of experience to draw from.
The bottom line basically is it's up to you to make it happen, regardless of what you choose to use or how you choose to use it. If you want a 44Mag, 454Casull, or 44 Special, just go get it. They are all very capable of putting venison in the freezer. All it really takes is determination and practice, practice, practice! You will be the winner!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Tommyt]

My Theory on killing shots on 4 legged animals
Equator Unless you head neck shoot
You shoot right below the equator slice the animal from rump to chest draw the magic Equator line keep your shoot just low of it.
On it, will work just low of it is Grand

JMHO


Tommyt

[Autorim]

I really like Sweetwater's post and IMHO he pretty much says it all. It also is a bit saddening because at my age, I also cannot shoot like I used to. I want to and I practice, but as we age it takes a lot more work and practice - some of which is limited purely by eyesight. The other limitation is that I just cannot hold as solid as I could when I was younger.

Bullet placement is the key and a study of anatomy is necessary to know where to place the bullet. My effective shooting range with a handgun just gets shorter and I must know my limitations for a humane shot. The fun is still in the chase and the practice and I still love the smell of powder smoke.

Shoot enough with proper practice and you will get better.

Ken

[Graybeard]

So since the gut is below that equator line of yours a gut shot is OK? 

My Theory on killing shots on 4 legged animals
Equator Unless you head neck shoot
You shoot right below the equator slice the animal from rump to chest draw the magic Equator line keep your shoot just low of it.
On it, will work just low of it is Grand

JMHO


Tommyt

[Tommyt]

So since the gut is below that equator line of yours a gut shot is OK? 

Sorry heres a Reword via a picture I draw in my Mind
 For the Old EYES    LOL