i dont want an exit hole

[beadlescomb]

to me it seems like if the bullet is blowing through a deer then that is wasted energy i want a bullet that expends all of its energy into the animal thats just my .02 cents i'll sit back and see what everyone else has to say

[RaySendero]

So how many deer have you actually shot?

[DannoBoone]

You're correct, a through shot does waste energy and does not expend all of the bullet's
energy into the animal. Many want a fairly large exit hole for blood trail purposes, even if
the animal goes 2 1/2 feet.......straight down.

However, one can run into unforeseen problems using a frangible bullet. Given a close shot
when the bullet is traveling at a fast rate of speed (and "spin"), it can literally blow up on
the entrance side.

Your shots are also pretty limited to the boiler room, my favorite shot anyway, but you ARE
limited mostly to a brood side shot with frangibles.

If one takes a long range shot, say 350yds, it does take the bullet a certain amount of
time to reach the target.....sometimes long enough for the deer to take a step, and if
such step causes the bullet to hit an area other than the lung area, in all likelyhood, you
have a wounded animal. That's not to say one would not have a wounded animal with a
"premium bullet", but would be less likely.

At any rate, I hear where you're coming from. My first deer in Nebraska were legally taken
with a .22-250 using Hornady 55gr SP's, but only lung shots. None went more than 50yds
and some dropped like they were hit by lightening.

[Graybeard]

I agree with first response. I'd like to know your level of experience cuz I think it's rather little. Most experienced hunters know that expending 100% of what a bullet has inside an animal vs exiting is not good science.

Take a .30-06 or .300 magnum as a for instance. The energy taken out might be no more than that of a .22 rimfire which is a tiny tiny bit of what it had when it hit. There are too many advantages and no disadvantages to an exit. Now that's NOT to say the bullet should not do damage on the path out as it definitely should. We're not taling FMJ here were're talking expanding softs.

Energy smenery as I always say. It is meaningless and just paper energy anyway not real world energy. If you'll forget it and just not mention it every again you'll be far far better off in understanding how bullets kill game.

[chutesnreloads]

First critter you have to track down will cure you of that opinion.That likely will be the first critter you shoot.

[bulletstuffer]

One perfectly placed hole good...two holes are much better...two really big holes...priceless    No such thing as overkill 

Bulletstuffer

[securitysix]

no disadvantages to an exit

One disadvantage to an exit:  It's an extra hole to sew up if you preserve hides.  That said, I think I'd rather sew up a second hole than have to go home complaining about not being able to track the animal.

[nodlenor]

As long as the deer is dead I could care less how many holes there are.

[moosie]

Not to mention the damage to meat that frangible bullets do.  I am a hunter/eater and I do not like to have a whole shoulder mangled by exploding bullets.
Moosie

[SHOOTALL]

if you knew the exact range , shot placement , thickness of critter , bones to be encountered , elevation , humidity etc. you might build a round that would enter , kill and stop in the hide on the off side .
 But like the guy said the first time you mis judged and had a tracking job you would realize you folly and go for a nice exit wound that lets the life out quickly and marks a trail .

[Swampman]

Better to ruin both front shoulders than lose the whole animal.  That why I ruin both front shoulders when I get the chance.

[SHOOTALL]

A inch back of the front shoulder works just fine if ya like shoulder meat .

[Graybeard]

So the simple solution is DON'T SHOOT THE SHOULDER. 

Not to mention the damage to meat that frangible bullets do.  I am a hunter/eater and I do not like to have a whole shoulder mangled by exploding bullets.
Moosie

[RaySendero]

Better to ruin both front shoulders than lose the whole animal.  .....

Swampy, Seems you and I agree!

I'm a meat hunter.  As such, I'll take the double lung broad side shot and track if needed.  But 1 hour before dusk, I switch to the high shoulder shot = DRT.  I usually lose the off shoulder with this shot but never bloodied the front portion of back straps and never lost a deer!

[Darrell Davis]

Again, I see the subject of meat damage.

Well, lets face it, using expanding bullets with enough poop to do the job is doing to creat some damage.

However, beating same Ol'Band wagon again.

Use premimum bullets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do they create damage? yep!

But over 40 years I have seen with game taken, mine and that of other folks, where the damage was less then one would expect from a bad hit - and yes, they do happen - when a bullet such as the Nosler Partition was used.

Also, back in the mid-60s I saw a muley hit in a hind quarter with a 30/30 - I didn't make that shot by the way - but the folks who process that critter made over a 100lbs of mince meat that year.

A poor hit, will cost you far more in wasted meat then the cost of loading quality bullets!

Keep em coming!

CDOC   

[Steve P]

You're correct, a through shot does waste energy and does not expend all of the bullet's
energy into the animal.

Are you kidding me?  Do you actually believe this?  How is energy wasted?  You don't think that energy is dissipated on impact with the animal?  If this were true, a through shot with a bullet going 1000 fps would have same impact on an animal as a bullet going through at 3000 fps.  Energy dissipation by mass would be equal as the animal mass does not change so deceleration rate does not change?  I don't think so. 

This is the same arguement that Jack O'Conner and Elmer Keith had for years.  It is also the same arguement that many bullet manufacturers use when making and marketing their bullets.  How is that energy dissipated upon impact with an animal?  How much of the energy is retained with the bullet vs how much is redirected at impact?

I will give a brief example of what I am talking about: 

Bullet one is a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.  Upon impact the plastic tip of the Ballistic Tip looses its energy very fast because it has little if any mass.  The lead and brass, following the tip, meets this loss of energy so energy has to dissipate out and away.  This is what causes the ballistic tip bullet to expand.  Depending on the mass of the item being hit, will depend how much the forces cause the ballistic tip to expand.  In most instances, this is what causes the ballistic tip to come apart.  Forces go from being applied in one .224" surface to multiple directions and miniscule surfaces.

Bullet two is a Winchester 55 gr soft point.  Same velocity, same energy.  No plastic tip to re-direct the energy.  Depending on the mass of the item being hit will depend on how the energy of the bullet is dissipated.  The impact causes the soft point to compress and expand.  This bullet energy vs mass is what causes the jacket to split and the bullet to mushroom and change the energy forces.  Forces go from being applied in one .224" surface to one @ .4" surface with possibilities of miniscule surfaces.   

Bullet three is a FMJ 55 gr bullet.  No tip to redirect the energy.  No soft nose to expand to cause the bullet to mushroom.  Mass of copper jacket and internal lead vs mass of item being hit.  Most animals do not have mass enough to dissipate this energy.  Thus you get the "through" shot.

Imagine a deer being hit in soft area with each of these three bullets.  All three will likely go thru.  The ballistic tip will likely come apart and you will have small exit wound and some internal damage (blood shot).  The Winchester will have small entrance wound, likely a larger exit wound, and not a lot of internal damage.  The FMJ bullet will go in, go out with same size hole, and this, of the three bullets, would be the only example with minimal energy dissipated to the animal.

Imagine a deer being hit in the front shoulder bones with each of these three.  The ballistic tip will likely come apart and bloodshot the whole shoulder.  Mass of the bones will override the mass of the ballistic tip as the plastic tip is causing the bullet energy to expand into multiple miniscule particles.  Doubtful you will find the bullet and doubtfull you can eat any of the shoulder.   The Winchester bullet will have the soft lead nose expand, the bullet jacket will split and most of the energy will be disipated into the shoulder.  You could find a large piece of the bullet and could even find it going thru the bone and into the far shoulder.  The full metal jacket bullet will slow down and deform on impact to the bone, but more likely than not, it will destroy mass in the bone of the first shoulder and mass in the second shoulder.  You will likely not find any bullet in the deer, but are likely to have both shoulders blood shot and bone fragments throughout both shoulders. 

Three types of bullets, same energy, but energy is being applied in the manner in which the bullet was designed to dissipate it.  You don't want an exit hole, which means you want the bullet that will expend its entire energy within the animal being hit.  Buy a long pointy bullet with a polymer tip and shoot it at high speed.  You will get your entrance wound and no exit.  You will have lots of bloodshot meat at the impact zone and throughout the area where the energy dissipates with all those teeny tiny pieces of bullet fragments hit.

I will take the soft nose bullet.  I will let the mass of the bullet vs the mass of the animal allow the bullet to mushroom.  I will have a hole going in and a little bit larger hole going out.  Depending on where the impact is will depend on the amount of blood trail and where the animal will drop.   

If you want to test this on something tangible, try these bullets on some steel targets.   Nosler BT will make a mark.  No damage to the steel.  The Winchester will likely cause the steel target to crater.  Depending on the type of steel and thickness, the FMJ bullet will cause a significantly larger crater, and or go all the way through.

Now, if you want to get into pointed bullets vs round nose vs flat nose, we can get into another debate on how they dissipate energy also.  Another saga in the never ending debate over which gun/bullet/velocity kills deader than another..........

Steve

[RaySendero]

.....

Now, if you want to get into pointed bullets vs round nose vs flat nose, we can get into another debate on how they dissipate energy also.  Another saga in the never ending debate over which gun/bullet/velocity kills deader than another..........

Steve

Steve, I would like to hear what you have to say about pointed vs round nose bullets but don't think we should clutter this thread.  How about you writing on this one:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,187561.0.html

[DannoBoone]

Take a .30-06 or .300 magnum as a for instance. The energy taken out might be no more than that of a .22 rimfire which is a tiny tiny bit of what it had when it hit. There are too many advantages and no disadvantages to an exit. Now that's NOT to say the bullet should not do damage on the path out as it definitely should. We're not taling FMJ here were're talking expanding softs.

Energy smenery as I always say. It is meaningless and just paper energy anyway not real world energy. If you'll forget it and just not mention it every again you'll be far far better off in understanding how bullets kill game.

Supposedly, there have been instances of people not seeing one deer behind another and killing both with one shot. My brother
has a friend in SW Colorado who claims to have done so with a .300 win mag. I now question the validity of such stories after
reading an article in Nov 09 issue of "Precision Shooting" magazine. Stephen Boxford was given an extensive tour of the Barnes
Bullets plant and got to be there during testing of a few of their bullets. One test was to check the speed of a bullet AFTER going
through a block of ballistic gel, which to appears to be 12" long. Results with a 180gr .308 TTSX were:

From a .30-06 impact speed of 2,526, exit speed 273fps.
From a .300 RUM impact speed of 3,003, exit speed 255fps.

No, the exit speeds are not mistakenly turned around.

Therefore, Bill, I digress. Even these bullets which retained all of their weight have exerted close to 90% of their speed, thereby
expending most of their energy, and you were correct in comparing an exiting premium bullet to having similar to a .22 LR.



Steve P - You totally, completely miss my point. Only a complete idiot would shoulder shoot a deer with two of the three bullets
you mentioned. I would not use the Nosler BT on a deer, even for a lung shot. Gimme the 85 grainer in .257 for use in my .25-06
and I would use THAT one for a lung shot (which may or may not exit), but there again, only an idiot would use it for a shoulder
shot. Wasted meat ya say? Probably would not get a chance to find out as it would more than likely result in a chase into the next
county or two. The 55 grainer especially would do little more than a sub-surface wound in the event of a shoulder shot. By the
way, WHERE is it legal to use FMJ's on deer??


Another "by the way": I now hunt (because of legality in Iowa) exclusively with ML's (can't stand the thought of using slugs).
I have used both frangible and all coppers, depending where I'm going to hunt. An XTP or even the SST in .451 is frangible
at a speed of 2600fps (Savage 10MLII), whereas Barnes Extremes are not.  I can be at both ends of these bullet debates.

In spite of what one's beliefs are about bullet choices, there is one thing which is not debatable, especially for meat consumption.
No matter what bullet is used, nothing beats a well-placed, humane shot. And for that to happen, it takes a lot more practice
than far too many people actually do prior to the hunt.

[Swampman]

I want an exit hole.

[Drilling Man]

  Over the years, i've harvested a LOT of big game, and on average the animals that have had an exit hole, are the ones that died the fastest.  Also, rarely is there tracking blood without an exit hole.  A picture is worth a thousand words.  Here's a white tail i shot a few weeks ago...

  Extrance hole,



  I turned him over, and although "some" of the blood got wiped off on the ground, you can still see the difference,

  Exit hole,



  DM

[Graybeard]

I think you got those photos reversed.

[sixshot]

  Hey Drilling Man, I think Stevie Wonder could track that one! I love these bullet/velocity debates!

Dick

[SHOOTALL]

DM nice shot , looks like neck and shoulders will clean up nice 

[Lloyd Smale]

if you want to see how little energy is actually transmitted to an animal take a 100 lb bag of feed and hang it from a pole and shoot it with something like a 300 mag that has substantial energy figures. You will see that that bullet barely moves the bag. People get confused. They shoot something with a warp speed bullet and it drops in its tracks and they think its energy that does it. Its not its the fact that the bullet probably blew to pieces and destroyed the insides of that animal and more then likely did the same to alot of the meat. Bottom line is that to drop an animal consistantly in its tracks you need to take out its central nervous system with a brain or a spine shot. YOu are not going to knock one down with the energy transfer from a peice of lead less then a 1/2 an inch in diameter no matter how fast you can shoot it.

[Autorim]

You want an exit hole and you want bleeding bright red from both the entrance and exit holes - from the heart and lung area. Ask any bow hunter - no hydrostatic shock from an arrow. Proper shot placement is always the key to success. Frangible bullets are not for large game.

[Drilling Man]

I think you got those photos reversed.

  The exit hole had the blood coming out of it, just like EVERY other pict i've taken of both sides of a deer that the bullet exited.  Here's another set of picts., of another buck that i shot, with the same gun.

  Entrance hole,



  Exit hole,



  DM

[Dave in WV]

I've never recovered a bullet fired from any of my rifles. My son has recovered two 100gr .243 CoreLokts from deer using my load. Both were one shot kills and one of those a very dramtic DRT. My point is I'd rather have a load that normally exits and if it doesn't it will still work.

[squirrellluck]

For what it's worth, I don't care if I get an exit wound or not. And yes I do and have hunted deer since I was a child but being a young fella thats only 35 years. I can't see blood so I don't rely on blood trails to track a deer.

[mcwoodduck]

Of the deer I have shot I have recovered four Projectiles.
My forst deer was shot close with a 180 Grain WW soft point out of a 308.
The butcher found the round in the spine.  Broke the far rib and sent frags out as an exit and the bullet lodged in the spine.
Found two 00 plated buck rounds in a small buck I shot at 75 Yards with a Win 1897 Riot shot gun.  One was lodged in the far side skin the other in the near side ack strap.  No other pellets hit.
The last round was a 165 grain Soft point boat tail from the first Mule deer.  It was just under the far side skin from a 250+ yards shot.
All others have been in and out. 
Like DM I had one deer I called the JFK shot.  Huge entrance wound on the right rear rib cage and a perfect 308 hole on the left shoulder.
but that deer went bang Flop and almost made me late to my cousins wedding.  Well who in thier right mind has a wedding on opening day?
I was not the only one that showed up with fresh blood on or in the truck.
But back to your question.
If you want to put more energy into the animal go larger slug, both diameter and grains.  Flat or round nose projectiles with as much lead showing as possible.
Pistol rounds with lead slugs, or 45-70 comes to mind as a way to really energize a deer.  If it does exit OK but loading a varmint bullet and not picking your shots is not sportman like.  I have seen spectacular kills on deer with 223 and even 22 Hornet but it was a perfect shot at ranges suited for the hit with a good broad side shot that will ruin both lungs.
I am a good shot and can pick my shots, own 22 hornets, and 223's, but i still want a heavy 308 for deer in the woods and a meduim for feilds.  I find the round nose rounds in 30 caliber and bigger to be great woods rounds that knock deer down.  Easy to track when they are in the same spot ot a foot from where you shot them.

[LONGTOM]

Anyone who thinks a bullet can't go through one animal and still kill another is sadly mistaken.
I have seen this on video once and in person twice.
The video was some high speed caliber, I don't remember the details as to which caliber and or what bullet was used but it did kill two does with one shot.

The two I personally saw were done with a Browning Highwall rifle shooting 300 gr WINCHESTER HPs.
The first time was by mistake as the shooter didn't see the small doe on the other side of the larger one.
The bullet hit the first doe through the ribs and on exit it struck the smaller doe in the neck.
The shot was about 80 yds and both were dead by the time we got to them.

The second time was by choice (which I did not agree with) but the shooter did it anyway.
Same gun and load but this time the distance was just about 45 yds.
This was done on a culling permit.
The deer were all lined up at a cattle feeder with a 5pt, a large doe and a small doe in that order.
At the crack of the shot the buck dropped and so did the other two.
The large doe got up and tried to run but only went about 40 yds.
The bullet hit the buck through the neck and entered the large doe through the ribs and struck the smaller doe in the spine just behind the shoulder line.
The buck was dead but we did have to shoot the two does with a handgun to finish them.

Like I said, I did not agree with this but the owner of the land was the shooter and it was his call.
He was not expecting to hit the small doe but it just did.

He took eleven deer that evening all with the same gun and ammo and there was only one that had to be tracked.
It was a large doe that was hit a bit far back on the run.
We did recover it about 300 yds away thanks to a very good blood trail from a nice exit hole.

All meat was donated to a local origination to help feed the homeless.

Someone else can calculate the numbers and say it can or can't happen, I'm saying it can and did cause I was there!

BTW - I have never again joined this shooter on a hunt or deer culling since.
The first time was a mistake and I can live with that, but the three shot was uncalled for.

See if this link works.
Two deer with one shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q220qWHJE80


LONGTOM