i dont want an exit hole

[Siskiyou]

My brother killed two bucks standing next to each other using a 156-grain Hornady bullet in his 6.5x55 Swede.

[mfuff]

Deer flipping over, seemingly tossed sideways or dropping on the spot are the result of the damage a bullet does to the vitals, muscular and nervous systems and the nervous systems reaction to trauma. A bullet that stays inside of an animal will kill that animal as long as the bullet design does it's job. In IDEAL shots where penetration through bone or deep body angles is not necessary, bullets that blow up will kill deer also. Other than that bullets that blow apart are made for varmint hunting and in my opinion have no place for large game. There is not a bullet made that imparts some magical energy into it's target. There just is not enough mass of the bullet or frontal area to have it lift an animal off it's feet. Anyone that thinks otherwise should fill a 5gal. bucket with sand and hang it 6" off of the ground. Take your favorite cartridge and bullet and shoot the bucket at 50yds. The bucket might weigh 50-80lbs and I'll bet it does not swing backwards more than 3" if at all. In reality a bullet can only hit with the same force at each end, it is how the bullet is designed to expand that does the damage.
Having an entrance and exit hole will allow for a better tracking job if necessary. A bullet that expands AND penetrates is the best of both worlds.
Shot placement is first and foremost followed closely by matching the bullet for the game.

[shot1]

My buddy killed two deer with one shot with his 7mm STW using a 140 Nosler Partition. First was a BIG buck that he had been hunting all season long and on the last day about 5 minutes before dark he shows up. My buddy shoots him through the front shoulders broadside at just a little over 100 yards. It drops the buck in his tracks but then my buddy notices the weeds shaking a few yards on the offside of where the buck was standing. When he gets to the buck there is a doe about 10 yards away with and entrance hole for a perfect heart shot and that bullet exited the doe also.

I once killed a tree after killing a deer. I was shooting my Sharps 45-70 with a Lyman #457193 cast bullet weighing 418 grains pushed by 70 grs FFG Black Powder. The deer was facing me at 108 yards. I aimed at the white patch in the center of it's chest and fired. When the smoke cleared the deer was laying where it had been standing. When I got to the deer I found that between the time I fired and the bullet got there the deer had put it's head down and the bullet struck it right between the eyes traveled down it's neck exited behind it's left shoulder, shot it's left back leg off just above the knee and hit the hard packed logging road and went about 5 yards like a mole. The bullet came out of the ground and went through a 3 inch thick tree. The next year I noticed that the tree had died.

I always try to hit a shoulder if possible either going in or coming out or both. Where I hunt you can kill all the deer you want, 2 a day. The "ruined" shoulders get de-boned and put into a crock pot and fed to the dogs and cats.



This is an exit hole from a 155 Berger VLD shot from a 30X47 HBR at 2650 fps. Deer was 111 yards away.

[Gohon]

Bottom line is that to drop an animal consistantly in its tracks you need to take out its central nervous system with a brain or a spine shot. You are not going to knock one down with the energy transfer from a peice of lead less then a 1/2 an inch in diameter no matter how fast you can shoot it.

The above quote is spot on in my opinion.  The energy dump theory has pretty much been proven to be wrong.  Seems a lot of people don't understand what kills a deer.  The only part bullet energy plays is expansion and penetration.  Living tissue is elastic and will not compress from a shock wave but simply bounce back to it's original position.  As stated above a disruption of the nervous system by a spine or brain shot as well as a disruption of the blood flow to the brain is what drops a deer.  The latter being the majority of dropped deer in the field.

[roper]

Here is some interesting reading
http://www.gunsandhunting.com/Bullethitsbone.html

[necchi]

Thanks for the link, that is a good read, Mr Mann makes a point without the sales pitch,,

[High Brass]

I favor the bullet to exit but if the deer dies quickly and recovering the animal wasn't dramatic I really don't worry about it. 

[ed k]

i personally killed to does with one shot from my 300 win mag with 180 grain sierra gameking. that is the only bullet i ever recoveredfrom that gun. the shot was about 400 yards and both deer died on the spot. bullet was perfectmushroom. my brother did the same thing with his 7mm rem mag shooting 160 grain sierra i beleive. it happens. ed k

[Badge54]

For every cowboy shot in a movie that flew back 10 feet, broke the window, rolled down the roof and landed in the watering trough... there should be a shooter that rolled over backwards, knocked the door off the hinges, rolled down the stairs and came to rest in the parlor.

There is an equal and opposite reaction, basic physics. Don't over estimate the energy of a bullets just put it in the right place.

Now since bullets don't knock deer back 10 feet, out the window rolling off the roof and to the street below...  I prefer two holes leaking blood to find them with.

Badge54

[Lloyd Smale]

ill addres the original question like this. Take yourself a 378 weatheby mag and shoot at a 100 lb bag or feed hanging from something so it can swing freely. Now shoot it and see just how little it moves. If your relying on ft lbs of energy to kill something your in trouble. A animal is killed in two ways they either bleed to death or there central nervous system is shut down, not by getting the crap knocked out of them. Who cares if 500ft lbs of energy are expended in an animal or 5000. What you need is the proper bullet for the job. that bullet will 99 times out of a 100 be something that goes in and does its damage and comes out again. If you look at a wound channel of a bullet that is conrtoled expanding and will give an exit then compair it to a wound channel of a quick expanding bullet you will se the the long wound channel of the controled expanding  bullet actually has as much or even more blood vessels cut and nerves damaged. Another big advantage is with two holes your going to have a much better blood trail. I thought like you when i was young and inexperience but have learned by killing lots of animals that what i want in a big game hunting ammo is medium to heavy for the caliber bullets at moderate velocitys.

[Darrell Davis]

Aw shucks, you fellers are all wet!!!

Them 20 shooters they had back then were a whole different thing then we have now.

Much more poooooowerful and the good guys much stronger.

That explains how the bad guys rolled and the good guys could keep their feet.

Tuff  fellers, da ones with the white hats!

All the Black hats were jus wimps!

I larned all this from watch'in Hoppy, Red Rider, Lone Ranger and Captain Midnight who was on the telly with Icibod Mudd ( spelled with two "d"s).

If'n I can come up with one of them twenty shooters, I'll make some veeedio and show how it was done, "in the good Ol'days".

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[trotterlg]

The energy dump theory has pretty much been proven to be wrong.  Seems a lot of people don't understand what kills a deer.  The only part bullet energy plays is expansion and penetration.  Living tissue is elastic and will not compress from a shock wave but simply bounce back to it's original position.  As stated above a disruption of the nervous system by a spine or brain shot as well as a disruption of the blood flow to the brain is what drops a deer.  The latter being the majority of dropped deer in the field.

I can tell you there is a really big difference in how Coyotes act when they are shot between a 22 lr and a 17 Remington.  Both will probably not exit, but a chest shot with a 25gr 17 Remington at 4,200fps will cause total disruption of all body function, they mostly don't even twitch.  A 22 lr hit in the same place and they mostly will spin around biting themselves and run some before they expire.  When you take them apart the 17 Rem shot dog will be just jelly in the chest and the 22lr shot dog will have lots of recognisable parts left.  I think there must be something to the shock value of a high speed round, I can't say on deer, I have never shot one with anyting but a 30-30 with 170 gr flat points and they have always had an exit.  Larry

[securitysix]

The energy dump theory has pretty much been proven to be wrong.  Seems a lot of people don't understand what kills a deer.  The only part bullet energy plays is expansion and penetration.  Living tissue is elastic and will not compress from a shock wave but simply bounce back to it's original position.  As stated above a disruption of the nervous system by a spine or brain shot as well as a disruption of the blood flow to the brain is what drops a deer.  The latter being the majority of dropped deer in the field.

I can tell you there is a really big difference in how Coyotes act when they are shot between a 22 lr and a 17 Remington.  Both will probably not exit, but a chest shot with a 25gr 17 Remington at 4,200fps will cause total disruption of all body function, they mostly don't even twitch.  A 22 lr hit in the same place and they mostly will spin around biting themselves and run some before they expire.  When you take them apart the 17 Rem shot dog will be just jelly in the chest and the 22lr shot dog will have lots of recognisable parts left.  I think there must be something to the shock value of a high speed round, I can't say on deer, I have never shot one with anyting but a 30-30 with 170 gr flat points and they have always had an exit.  Larry

If I had to guess, that little .17 caliber pill is probably fragmenting pretty severely inside the coyote, whereas a typical .22 LR doesn't.  So that .17 caliber pill that's probably still up around 3800 FPS or better when it gets to the coyote is doing significantly more tissue damage than the .22 LR, which is just boring a more or less .22 caliber hole part way through the coyote.  And therein lies your difference.

I do know one person who has killed a coyote with a .22 LR with one shot that left the dog DRT.  Of course, it was a head shot from about 20 yards or so, but that just goes to speak to shot placement. 

[Lead Poison]

I have killed a lot of deer and without question, I WANT THE BULLET TO EXIT!

[Lead Poison]

I agree with first response. I'd like to know your level of experience cuz I think it's rather little. Most experienced hunters know that expending 100% of what a bullet has inside an animal vs exiting is not good science.

Take a .30-06 or .300 magnum as a for instance. The energy taken out might be no more than that of a .22 rimfire which is a tiny tiny bit of what it had when it hit. There are too many advantages and no disadvantages to an exit. Now that's NOT to say the bullet should not do damage on the path out as it definitely should. We're not taling FMJ here were're talking expanding softs.

Energy smenery as I always say. It is meaningless and just paper energy anyway not real world energy. If you'll forget it and just not mention it every again you'll be far far better off in understanding how bullets kill game.

I agree with Greybeard 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[yellowtail3]

i dont want an exit hole

then use a .22LR hollowpoint

[SHOOTALL]

Glaser safety slugs might give ya what ya want

[yellowtail3]

Glaser safety slugs might give ya what ya want

Heh heh heh ... that might do it, or maybe not. Here's a story: I used to use frangible bullets in my 9mm Makarov. Once, at home, I had an 'accidental discharge' - no sexual connotations - and shot a MagSafe into the pile of clothes on the floor. Bullet went through the clothes, through the carpet, through the floor, and ended up on the kitchen floor downstairs, in great shape - no fragmenting at all, but plenty of penetration...

[john keyes]

ill addres the original question like this. Take yourself a 378 weatheby mag and shoot at a 100 lb bag or feed hanging from something so it can swing freely. Now shoot it and see just how little it moves.

one time I wanted to shoot a two by four with my 50 cal ML.  420 gr cast and 90 gr pyrocorrode. 
there was no way to stand up the 2x4 so I stuck it straight up  in a moist fire ant hill at 100 yds.  when I shot I thought I had missed, but there was a clean hole through it, did not push it in the least, while the wind blew it over moments later....

[Steve P]

Bottom line is that to drop an animal consistantly in its tracks you need to take out its central nervous system with a brain or a spine shot. You are not going to knock one down with the energy transfer from a peice of lead less then a 1/2 an inch in diameter no matter how fast you can shoot it.

The above quote is spot on in my opinion.  The energy dump theory has pretty much been proven to be wrong.  Seems a lot of people don't understand what kills a deer.  The only part bullet energy plays is expansion and penetration.  Living tissue is elastic and will not compress from a shock wave but simply bounce back to it's original position.  As stated above a disruption of the nervous system by a spine or brain shot as well as a disruption of the blood flow to the brain is what drops a deer.  The latter being the majority of dropped deer in the field.

Interesting opinions being shared in this thread, and most are right on given the context in which they are given.  Lots of reading, writing, experiments, more writing, etc has gone into this subject for over 70 years that I know of.  It is not without fault that most of the writers opinions and experimentations are based upon incomplete information due to the vastness of the subject itself.

Mass, Velocity, Energy, Momentum, Tajectory, Force and all the other big words that come into play when discussing physical (and non-physical) properties of bullets and game animals are used but lack scientific concentricity.  For example, in the blanket statement above......"You are not going to knock one down with the energy transfer from a piece of lead less then a 1/2 an inch in diameter no matter how fast you can shoot it."  Is this extrapolated from something proven by Newton or Einstein?  Is it a theory?  Fact? or something rarely seen?  Where did this come from other than someone's opinion based up their experience?

Several years ago I took a shot at a really nice buck.  It was my first time hunting with this gun and I was in err for not knowing my tragectory.  Rather than hitting the deer in the shoulder, I hit it in the far front knee.  That deer's leg shot out and the deer actually went up in the air and hit on it's back.  If not energy from the bullet, then what caused the deer to somersault?

Several friends and I were on a hunt in Wy this last fall.  Some of us had doe tags.  A buddy decided he was going to shoot his doe in the head so no wasted meat.   At his shot, the does head flew back so fast the antelope spun nearly 180 degrees before hitting the ground.   If not energy from the bullet, what caused the antelope to spin around.  Head shot, so obviously no nervous system left to make it walk.  Front feet were even off the ground so it wasn't stored energy in some capacitor receptor or something making it turn around.

Both of the above stories were using 270 Winchesters.  I was using a 150 grain bullet when I hit the deer in the knee.  I don't know what Dave used on his antelope.

Same trip in Wy a buddy and I were shooting at prairie dogs.  When he shot, you heard the splat and saw the dog laying there kicking.  When I shot, they flew up in the air.  He was using a 257 Whby and I was using 243 WSSM.

Years ago this thing called "Cowboy Shooting" came out.  Several friends were at the same range as I.  I was shooting a DW 357 Max with 210 grain bullets.  My friends were shooting 45 colts "Cowboy" loads.  I had been shooting at steel targets out to 200 meters.  They were shooting bowling pins at 25 feet.  They bet me I couldn't knock down 5 bowling pins in a row.  I told them I would agree with them.  At 25 feet, my load was going too fast.  It would hit the bowling pin and go right thru.  They laughed.  5 pins up, I shot 5 times and hit every pin.  Pins hardly wiggled.  They said I missed, or just skimmed them.  I told them the bullets went thru.  Even showed them the exit holes.  They called BS.  I suggested we take it back to 50 yards and try again.  At 50 yards 5 shots and 4 pins off the table.  One just wiggled.  Same bullet, same load, so why the different reaction by the bowling pins?

Same DW shooting silhouette chickens at 50 meters.  When hit, the chickens fall back and just disappear out of the sight.  A friend shooting a 445SM next to me and the chickens flip in the air and fly back.  I told him to quit shooting them low, but he liked the way they fly.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."  "Waves will continue in one direction until an opposing force redirects them."  "Prairie dogs fly, I have seen this with my eye."  These are a few quotes taken from books I have read. 
They kinda fit in with the quote from above, "Living tissue is elastic and will not compress from a shock wave but simply bounce back to it's original position."  Shock absorbers on a car are supposed to keep forces from bouncing back and forth, but even with new shocks I bet you cant apply force on your car and make it "simply bounce back to it's original position."  People are what, 90% water or something like that.  So are most animals.  You think that shock wave from bullet impact simply bounces back to its original position and stops?  You ever see a wave in a lake go one direction and just stop?  How about a ripple in a glass of water from dropping in an ice cube?  When you hit an animal, that shock is going throughout it's body, finding resistance from muscle and nature's survival instincts, and bouncing back and forth.  It's just like rocking a boat from a wave or your ice cube bobbing after you drop it in your glass of water.

In order to sanely take an animal, you need to take away it's electrical impulses and/or oxygen supply.  The faster you do this, the faster the animal dies and the better the meat.  The secret to this whole hunting dilema is figuring out how to do this the fastest with the least amount of damage.  Can you figure it out?

Lots more to this story, but enough typing for now. 

Steve

[mfuff]

Several years ago I took a shot at a really nice buck.  It was my first time hunting with this gun and I was in err for not knowing my tragectory.  Rather than hitting the deer in the shoulder, I hit it in the far front knee.  That deer's leg shot out and the deer actually went up in the air and hit on it's back.  If not energy from the bullet, then what caused the deer to somersault?

Several friends and I were on a hunt in Wy this last fall.  Some of us had doe tags.  A buddy decided he was going to shoot his doe in the head so no wasted meat.   At his shot, the does head flew back so fast the antelope spun nearly 180 degrees before hitting the ground.   If not energy from the bullet, what caused the antelope to spin around.  Head shot, so obviously no nervous system left to make it walk.  Front feet were even off the ground so it wasn't stored energy in some capacitor receptor or something making it turn around.

Both of the above stories were using 270 Winchesters.  I was using a 150 grain bullet when I hit the deer in the knee.  I don't know what Dave used on his antelope.

Same trip in Wy a buddy and I were shooting at prairie dogs.  When he shot, you heard the splat and saw the dog laying there kicking.  When I shot, they flew up in the air.  He was using a 257 Whby and I was using 243 WSSM.

Years ago this thing called "Cowboy Shooting" came out.  Several friends were at the same range as I.  I was shooting a DW 357 Max with 210 grain bullets.  My friends were shooting 45 colts "Cowboy" loads.  I had been shooting at steel targets out to 200 meters.  They were shooting bowling pins at 25 feet.  They bet me I couldn't knock down 5 bowling pins in a row.  I told them I would agree with them.  At 25 feet, my load was going too fast.  It would hit the bowling pin and go right thru.  They laughed.  5 pins up, I shot 5 times and hit every pin.  Pins hardly wiggled.  They said I missed, or just skimmed them.  I told them the bullets went thru.  Even showed them the exit holes.  They called BS.  I suggested we take it back to 50 yards and try again.  At 50 yards 5 shots and 4 pins off the table.  One just wiggled.  Same bullet, same load, so why the different reaction by the bowling pins?

Same DW shooting silhouette chickens at 50 meters.  When hit, the chickens fall back and just disappear out of the sight.  A friend shooting a 445SM next to me and the chickens flip in the air and fly back.  I told him to quit shooting them low, but he liked the way they fly.

The deer shot in the knee flipped because of his nervous system and quick muscle reactions. The same shot on 10 different deer most likely will have 8 different reactions. A bullet will impart some energy as will the bullet expanding displace tissue. A deer shot in the head could result in the bullet flinging the head a bit because the head hardly weighs anything or slightly less than what the energy the bullet actually has, but the entire deer didn't do a complete somersault when the supposed"thousands" of  ft pounds of energy hit. There is just not enough of the small varmints to hold together and they explode like a bottle of water causing them to "fly". Kinda the same deal with the bowling pins, at some point or distance there will be enough energy that is greater than the pin to knock it over but did the bullets send them 50yards downrange? What do the silhouette chickens weigh? You have to use enough gun to get them to topple. Using a .38spl isn't gonna do it even though it is supposed to have a couple hundred pounds of energy. That 445SM will send them flying because whatever actual energy it does transfer is more than what they weigh but even though it has over 1500ft lbs at 100yds and over 2000 at the muzzle do you think it will budge a ram that weighs 200lbs? Take a 5gal bucket full of sand and hang it so that it could swing. Have your buddy shoot it with that 445SM at 25yds and see if it spins around in a complete circle or barely budges 3inches. It has no water or elastic tissue or nervous system or muscles. It weighs less than 100lbs and that 445 should send it flying. I bet it doesn't.
There certainly is energy involved but actual energy is nowhere near the measured hundreds or thousands of ft lbs. The energy is used more to have the bullet do it's intended job rather than send objects flying. Pick the right bullet for the job and it does not matter if the energy is 300 or 30,000. Remember an arrow might have 70lbs of kinetic energy but will shoot clear through big game animals and a .50BMG will shoot clear through a couple inches of steel yet not throw a 200lb man 6" if he had enough body armor on to stop it despite the bullet having 12500ft lbs of energy. Mythbusters shot the dummy square in the chest at point blank range with a 50BMG and the bullet stopped in the metal "spine" they fabricated. The dummy hung on a piece of metal that allowed whatever energy to let it slide and travel however far the energy took it.In theory that should move 12500lbs the equivalent of one foot. The dummy "flew" 2 inches.