Author Topic: Chronograph  (Read 2684 times)

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Offline possum6

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Chronograph
« on: December 08, 2009, 05:13:29 AM »
What is the purpose of a chronograph other than to know the speed of the bullet? I think I've spent enough $$ :o.
I believe everything that happen's, or will happen,was created, or created in the future, GOD knew and created from the very beginning of the foundation of the universe.       Dale

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 05:40:36 AM »
I bought my chrono in place of a gun in the 1980s.  It's an Oehler.  Its purpose is to drive me absolutely crazy and breed distrust in perfectly wonderful and accurate loads because they do not acheive the magic velocity that I have become so addicted to believe I must acheive to hunt the current generation of genetically engineered, kevlar reinforced, game animals.

Really...I have a very good friend who has a spectacularly accurate load for his Winchester Mod70 in 280. I mean consistant 3/4" groups with a 150ish grain bullet...a sierra I think.  He's taken it to Africa for plains game and shot all kinds of N. Am. game as well...whatta gun!  He sees me goofing with my Chrono and asks to put a few shots through it...turns out, his loads are about 250fps slower than he believed them to be...and the doubt set in...now, he continues to work up loads for the rifle which is no longer his favorite.  Many of his pals have suggested that he just go back to his original load...he says...yeah, but the velocity is kinda low....  If only the dozens of whitetails he's taken only knew...... ::)

Other than that...they're a pretty cool toy.   8)
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 05:45:50 AM »
You can use it as an indicator of pressure. If your powder load is at max recommended weight and you are getting the same velocity with a similar gun/barrel then you can pretty much rest assured that you are at maximum pressure. On the other hand if you are reaching the same published velocity even when your powder load is less then you are going over pressure more than likely and do not increase the powder even if you are not a maximum powder charge. They are nice to aid in determining bullet drop at extended ranges too. You do not absolutely need one, they are a tool to use in load development and in bullet drop. I think an important tool, but one you can live with out - I did for years until they became affordable. You can get a cheaper one for less than a hundred bucks. Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline necchi

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 06:39:00 AM »
 Comming from a long Muzzle Loading back ground, and just begining centerfire cartridge loading,  I really appreciate both answers here,
 We can always tell a handloader new to ML, because he's just dieing for velocity info and downrange trajectories, constantly experimenting with loads over the chrony and striving for a Magic Load. It's something that's really kind of
un-important when you consider effective range of a PRB in a Traditional ML is 150-200yrds max. Best accuracy in these things is best achieved usually far below max loads in 5 grn increments and can be easily found "on paper" at 100 yrds, and with plenty of practice learning gun control and open sights. Yet they keep 2nd guessing themselves because of the chrony readings and published data. A constant struggle with confidence.
 With CF rifle a 1/2grn can be make or break and a 1/10 grn being fine tuneing, seating depth, crimp or not, how much crimp etc,,,long range ballistic performance of different bullets at different velocites can be really big what with ballistic coefficants and SD, I mean the science behind it all is just PACKED with data and seem's almost over-whelming. I find myself thinking about it more, now instead of just walking past the chronys at the store I pause and look,,I think for current, I'll convince myself to concentrate on paper results and use data that's published close to the load I'm using for velocities, I mean it's there and not that tough to figure if 44 grns = 2900 and 43.5 = 2787, that my 43.7grns is about 2820 (?). I guess a chrony is on the list but WAY down there.
 
   
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 12:16:10 PM »
Powder charges are not necessarily linear. While a 1 grain jump can get you 100 fps more, the next one may only get you 60 fps more. it depends on the case capacity and how close you are getting to max pressure. I agree with you that it can drive you nuts trying to figure all the information you are given. You do not need a chronograph to develop loads, you do not need one to find the max load and you do not need one to find the most accurate load. When you first get one, the tendency is to try to get as much velocity as you can, but you find after a while that it really does not matter if you are getting 3000 fps or 2800 fps in the long run. Your criteria should be accuracy, not velocity. It is just a tool, like other reloading tools. You can buy a run of the mill die set and get by just fine or you can spend $150+ for the finest die set, it just depends on what you are looking for. I happen to like reloading and it is a hobby by it self to me. I use a single stage press and I try to make the perfect round each time I seat a bullet, I am not looking to crank out 200 rounds or more an hour. It will take me 3 or 4 evenings to load up 200 rounds from cleaning the cases, primer pockets, sizing priming, loading powder, seating the bullets, etc. I shoot to reload. So yes I like a chronograph, it gives me more information to tinker with, but if you are the type that reloads to shoot, then they are pretty much a waste. Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 12:28:32 PM »
Quote
Its purpose is to drive me absolutely crazy and breed distrust in perfectly wonderful and accurate loads because they do not acheive the magic velocity that I have become so addicted to believe I must acheive to hunt the current generation of genetically engineered, kevlar reinforced, game animals.

I'm not sure anyone read and understood this post! so I'm reposting the meat of it! That may be the best and most hilarious discription I have ever heard!

Hat off to you Doc!
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2009, 12:49:44 PM »
Does the ave. hand loader need one , NO , however if your like me and tend to dabble in the world of Wildcats , its a MUST .

When you have only crunched numbers to go by , things tend to go from Ok to very bad in as little as .02g of powder , Thats were the Chrono can be a very good tool that will let you know when you have hit the most a cartridge will give before the gun gives up .  :o

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Offline Autorim

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009, 01:58:35 PM »
No, you don't need one, but I also didn't need that S&W M19 I bought a couple of weeks ago, but they both sure are fun. The old Oehler is more useful and educational.

Ken

Offline 41 mag

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 02:57:33 PM »
What is the purpose of a chronograph other than to know the speed of the bullet? I think I've spent enough $$ :o.

Well I have also used mine,

to hold down targets at the range when the wind was blowing
to check the speed of my arrows
to pinch the heck out of my fingers on several occasions

But overall it is used as you describe to check the speed of my bullets. As the others have mentioned it is a nice tool to use when working up loads especially for checking them against drop tables.

Also as mentioned, you do not absolutely need one, but for about $100 bucks, barring you don't blow a hole through it, it will last for many years with very little wear and tear, or upkeep.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 03:59:57 PM »
OK Guys...thought I'd have some fun.  Now to get serious....well  maybe not but I'll try....

I have an Oehler Chronograph that I bought in place of another gun in 1980 something or other.  I have used it often and it's been quite telling.  Telling me that I'm way too anal about reloading and shooting.  The typical handloader doesn't need one at all.  We load for accuracy....period.  I've had and will continue to have accurate loads that fly no where near the published velocities in MY guns.  I'm trying to be old and mature enough to say,  "so what"...I've taken alot of very different game animals and not a one knew how fast my bullet was going when it was struck.  But...everytime I set the D***N thing up...I start to doubt the efficacy of my minute of angle load with a premium bullet...just because it's 150fps slower than the published velocity.

I'm glad I own it though...I've had more sport debunking expert reloaders who were so sure (brag) that their wizbang load exceeded book max velocity...oh yeah...my 06 with 180gr nucular warhead bullet gets a million fps at the muzzle.  Till Mr. Oehler shows up.....

My opinion...chronographs are like Ouiji Boards...careful what you ask of'm.......

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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 12:06:18 AM »
Well that was another fine post doc, and i do understand what you mean. But your first post really hit home for me because after the first bullet i sent through a chrono i was never to be the same. Kinda like finding out there was no Santa! I was thinking my rounds were sooooooo accurate and traveling at the speed of light and low and behold I was 80 ft per second slower than what the book said! OMG gotta get home and pack some more powder in this brass Somehow! Oh yea and dont forget cleaning the barrell to pre first shot condition! and then cleaning some more and then taking the barrell off and sending it  to the "Doctor" to see what in heavens name was the problem! arrrrrrgh!!!  :o

And just as you said, all the game i had taken in the past had never known that they were killed by an "inferior pill" traveling at less than perfect warp speed!

These days I'm trying to be more easy going about a lotta things and so now when i produce a round that hits paper where I think I was aiming( cant see well enough to be to demanding anymore ) I'm a happy camper! errr shooter!

So a chrono is a good thing, and like Stimpy said, can be very usefull, but mine rarely sees the light of day these days. Cause i dont need any more information to convince me that I'm not perfect! or to make me less confident!  ;)
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 03:13:08 AM »
Thanks for the compliments Shooter!!!

I have a love hate relationship with the chronograph to be sure.  Though I'm still not convinced that accurate loads kill animals better than supersonic, blackhole creation, laser beam loads.  That's the addiction part for me...even though my 375HH will shoot a 1" group at 100yards with a 300gr Nosler Partition and flattened a 2000lb bison at 85 or 100 yards with one shot...it's only traveling at 2465fps at the muzzle and should be going closer to 2600.  Same with my custom mauser in 7x57 that shoots 175gr RN hornadys into 1 1/4" groups all day long...but...only gets 2435fps...and on and on and on. 

Fun thread!!!

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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 05:07:14 AM »
A C'graph adds another dimension to an already wonderfully interesting hobby!  Working up loads without one is kinda like...  :-\  well, kinda like having an, um, intimate relationship with just yourself... It's okay, but leaves you feeling like something is missing...  ;D   :-*
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 05:27:40 AM »
Quote
intimate relationship with just yourself

Well Richard Sir, as soon as i need glasses  ;) I'm gonna start using mine again!!!   ;D
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 05:33:36 AM »
....well...lots of folks are legends in their own minds..... :D
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Offline Savage

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 06:22:26 AM »
Those of us who dabble in action pistol games rely on our chrono to develop loads that squeak by just above power factor. The load needs to be adjusted depending on climatic factors durring the year. A chrongraph is a "Must Have".
Savage
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Offline possum6

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 01:52:49 PM »
Quote
intimate relationship with just yourself

Well, I've had several too many of them and they didn't cost me a dime   ::)
Quote
Its purpose is to drive me absolutely crazy and breed distrust in perfectly wonderful and accurate loads because they do not acheive the magic velocity that I have become so addicted to believe I must acheive to hunt the current generation of genetically engineered, kevlar reinforced, game animals.

And I've got way too many thing's to drive me crazy ::)
I believe everything that happen's, or will happen,was created, or created in the future, GOD knew and created from the very beginning of the foundation of the universe.       Dale

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 01:59:37 PM »
possum6

Botton line is , you don't have to have one , I loaded for over 20 years without one , do they serve a useful purpose , Depends on how much you want to dive into this hobby .

stimpy
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Offline possum6

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 02:07:11 PM »
Started reloading almost one year ago,thought I could save some money because I love to shoot, figured out real quick it's a never ending money-pit. As for " diving in " I'm up to my ear's now. Have no plan's to give it up though, lord's willing.
I believe everything that happen's, or will happen,was created, or created in the future, GOD knew and created from the very beginning of the foundation of the universe.       Dale

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 02:30:13 PM »
Well...look at the bright side Possum...no one can ever accuse you of drinhking away your money.  You're a handloader....you'll just shoot your kids inheritance away!!!  ;)
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Offline fr3db3ar

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 02:41:52 PM »
When I bought mine, it was to make sure everybody was keeping their paintballs under 300 fps  :D
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Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 04:42:02 PM »
Dad and I survived handloading from 1957 until 2004 without a chronograph. Finally I gave in and bought one. It was a cheap model on sale and I'd had a particularly good year at work. Merry Christmas to me. Well, Dad was less than ammused and "what a waste of  money" is the comment I recall. He humored me the first time I took it to the range. Even gave me space on the table to set up and time to get it all together. You know, reading the manual and all that. When that first set of numbers lit up the display, you'd have thought he just won the lottery! After that, he was all for it. We had a lot of fun with it for a couple years, and then I had to move away, chasing a job. He doesn't shoot anymore, and I wouldn't trade that memory of him for anything.
What did we use it for? Surely NOT to compare velocities with "the book". I always have several books and none of them ever agree, and what I am shooting is almost never the same as what was used to develop the book. The book is merely a guide. My barrels are generally shorter, so there starts the variables game. The chronograph showed me that some of my favorite loads, real game getters and adequate accuracy, were not really the best, usually from a powder burning perspective. I had some real wide velocity swings (extreme spread), most of which I passed off as using stick powders in my powder measure and being in too much of a hurry. One day I experimented with IMR4895. Using a proven safe powder charge. I "threw" 10 rounds with the measure, and then very carefully weighed 10 rounds and went to the range. Interestingly, the average velocity of both sets of loads was the same (within 10fps). The difference in extreme spread was over 100fps and the difference in accuracy was like night and day.

So, now, what the chronograph does for me is help my "confidence" that my loading regime is consistent. When my extreme spreads and standard deviations are low, it helps me believe I'm using the right combination of primer, powder and bullet for my weapon. It also showed me that in my 8mm Persian Carbine, 200gr Nosler Partitions will go faster than 185gr Remington Coreloks with the same powder charge. The Noslers are my elk bullet of choice, but I have shot just as many with a 175gr Sierra, which will attain about 300 fps over the 200gr Nosler. Still, my confidence is in the Nosler when I'm elk hunting. The Idaho whitetail buck that absorbed a 185gr Remington Corelok, folded his legs under him at the shot. The chronograph helped me develop that load. It wasn't in the book.

Do you need one? Only you can answer that question. Will you benefit from it? Probably.

Regards,
Sweetwater
Regards,
Sweetwater

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Offline Dezynco

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 05:26:02 PM »
I got a used chronograph with a box full of other stuff for $100.00.  The 'chrony will make a believer or a doubter out of you.  It is a nice thing to have around sometimes, but not necessary for a dang thing for the average handloader.  Most of the data that's in your reloading manuals is pretty close, no need to consult the chronograph.  However, they're very handy if you're working up loads for a wildcat cartridge.

It's sorta like a yo-yo, you don't need one, but it's fun to piddle with sometimes!

Offline possum6

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 05:28:04 PM »
When that first set of numbers lit up the display, you'd have thought he just won the lottery! After that, he was all for it. We had a lot of fun with it for a couple years, and then I had to move away, chasing a job. He doesn't shoot anymore, and I wouldn't trade that memory of him for anything.
 
I would buy a half dozen to have a memory like that.
I believe everything that happen's, or will happen,was created, or created in the future, GOD knew and created from the very beginning of the foundation of the universe.       Dale

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 02:00:20 AM »
What is the purpose of a chronograph other than to know the speed of the bullet? I think I've spent enough $$ :o.

Chronograph - Don't reload without it!
    Ray

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 04:47:16 AM »
  I bought my first chrono in the 70's, it was an Oehler 33, (i think?) anyway, i've had a chrono ever since...

  Back then almost no one had a chrono, and when i'd be set up at the range, there would always be guys asking if i would fire their rifle over it.  Almost ALWAYS they left disappointed...

  Chrono's are now inexpensive to buy, (compared to the 70's) and they are a very usefull tool to anyone who is interested in reloading past the point of making some ammo "that just goes bang!"

  DM

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 05:28:27 AM »
Started reloading almost one year ago ... save some money ... I love to shoot ... it's a never ending money-pit

Hummmm,  :-\  I could go on and on with stuff like:

I believe you will come to find a few truisms when it comes to handloading.  First, ammunition costs per round will most likely go down.  Of course this is a very general statement, but we could start a whole thread figuring the cost per round factoring in a depreciation schedule for equipment and the like.  No need.  Generally, your cartridges will cost you less.

Secondly, you "love to shoot."  Great!  Now you can shoot more for the same expendature of funds!  So it is not likely you will save any money.

This begs the question, what are you loading for?  If your only firearm is Grandaddy's ol' 30-30, and "170 gr. Core-Loks have always done fine," you are at the minimal expendature end of the reloading spectrum and probably won't ever buy a chronograph.

If, on the other hand, you have 40 or 50 rifles and almost as many pistols, and each weekend you are shooting either High Power, Bench Rest, 3 gun or CAS, and the introduction of a new powder or bullet makes your breath come in gasps with a longing to "see how it does," and you ponder for hours on the relative mico millimeter length and nano second duration of the flash of primers made by the various manufacturers, you are probably near the maximum expendature end of the spectrum and will already have one or two of the things.

I would guess that most people start reloading somewhere near the minimal end.  They may move up as time goes on, but normally they will hit a point where their needs are satisfied and remain at that point until and unless their needs change.

So, if and when you get to the point that you no longer consider the primary function of handloading to be the production of cheap ammo to shoot up but as a wide ranging and enjoyable hobby in and of itself, you will have hit the transition point where your perceived needs will dictate your equipment purchases.  It is sometime after you reach that point that you will decide you need a chronograph!

or I could just quote DM:

Chrono's are now inexpensive to buy, (compared to the 70's) and they are a very usefull tool to anyone who is interested in reloading past the point of making some ammo "that just goes bang!"

and say +1   ;D
Richard
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 07:10:12 AM »
Very well said!!!  Bravo!!
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Offline Dave in WV

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 12:47:56 PM »
Having a chronograph can be good or bad depending on how disiplined you are. If you aren't disiplined to stay safe you can get yourself into trouble by trying to get more velocity. I got a chrony this year as a gift from my son. I like it. I chronographed my three deer rifles recently. My .243 shooting a 100gr bullet is 2950fps (max load), my 30-06 shooting a 165gr bullet is 2850fps (three grains under max using H4350 ), and my 7mm-08 shooting a 140gr bullet is 2650 fps (two grains under max using H4350 ). My first thought was I need to push the 7mm-08 faster. After I thought about it I decided the deer didn't seem to know so why bother.

My point is some firearms may be fast for a load or can be slow. If you're at a max load and it's still slow don't try going faster. Live with it or try another load.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline huntducks

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Re: Chronograph
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2009, 11:41:28 AM »
After the newness wore off they now collect dust, it was neat at first now it's just a PIA to set up.
Remember it's where the first bullet goes out of a cold barrel that counts most.