Author Topic: More queestions  (Read 2128 times)

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Offline clum sum

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More queestions
« on: December 08, 2009, 12:50:07 PM »
First let Me say " Dealing with Hern Iorn Works is a pleasure". Now what is the best way to finnish the outside of the barrel? And has anyone used Live Oak for a carrage? This will be a navel carrage. Thanks from a newbee.
A man's hand shake is his bond.
                     Joe R. Risley Jr.

Offline Double D

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 01:05:28 PM »
First let Me say " Dealing with Hern Iorn Works is a pleasure". Now what is the best way to finnish the outside of the barrel? And has anyone used Live Oak for a carrage? This will be a navel carrage. Thanks from a newbee.

You can't just come in here post  like that!!!

Tell us what got show us the pictures!!!  How long is it, what caliber, how much does it weigh?  We want details.  Be sure an post pictures as you build!!!

Offline RocklockI

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 01:18:08 PM »
an auto grinder will work . You must be carefull not to flat spot it anywhere ,keep it moving .

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 01:40:22 PM »
Cast iron machinery typically has a finished appearance but if you have ever stripped a machine for repainting, you will find cavities that have been filled with various kinds of putty, etc.  If you have small surface blemishes that are cavities, I would suggest filling them with Bondo rather than trying to grind them out.  Depending on the location, size and shape of the defects, it might even make sense to enlarge them a little so that the Bondo gets a better grip on the barrel.

When you're finished sanding, prime and paint black if the original is a cast iron gun or paint bronze if it was a bronze gun.
GG
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 05:03:38 PM »
George .... paint it bronze ?  ;) It's either bronze or not .

I thought about doing it .........but it just didnt seem right  :o.

Gary   
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Victor3

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 11:37:25 PM »
  If you have small surface blemishes that are cavities, I would suggest filling them with Bondo rather than trying to grind them out.  Depending on the location, size and shape of the defects, it might even make sense to enlarge a little them so that the Bondo gets a better grip on the barrel.

 Bondo on a cannon barrel? Blast-phemy...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline carronader

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 07:24:48 AM »
Victor, have you noticed how the lower classes seem to reach for the chemicals when little problems arise .True Sophisticates prefer the natural state...........permit occasional blemishes.......those two will be talking Duraglit next.................yea George ..........get some body filler on it........never see it under the paint......damn rednecks.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 07:59:57 AM »
clum sum,

If you don't have access to white oak, which is/was the preferred choice for making cannon carriages in America, I'd think that 'live oak' would work fine for a naval carriage. Live oak actually has a greater density than white or red oak, and it was used extensively in American ship building in the age of sail. They used live oak to make the large knees, or supports of the decks in the framing of the hulls on wooden ships. From reading about American ship building in this era, live oak was not used in making the long planks for the outer hull of ships, because of the convoluted/irregular grain patterns in the wood; for this they used white or red oak, which were both better suited to form the planks.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 08:20:02 AM »
anyone who could explain what live oak is ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 08:55:24 AM »
Live oak is a living oak tree.  You use the wood without killing the tree - just chop a chunk out of the trunk! ;D

Nah...it's another group of species of oak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak

Offline carronader

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 10:12:32 AM »
Gulf, this tree looks like you can get some interesting , even beautifull grained timber out of it.Is it like that ? I didn't know about this tree either. How easy is it to cut ? machine etc. etc. Come on !  stop holding out on the foreigners.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 10:43:18 AM »
I think you directed that at the wrong person.  You should be asking that to clum sum.  That said, I live in Florida, and all the subdivisions around me are named after oaks - mine is Spanish Oaks.  Most are live oak varieties, and they are appropriately named because those trees are abundant (though the cutting of them is not being done since that was done many years ago during development). 

If you look at the first picture on the wiki link, you'll see that the truck can get relaitvely large, but branches off quickly, creating many decent size but gangly branches, which aren't large/straight enough in most cases to give really large planks which are easy to work with for a large scale project.  I think the wood would look good (though some would paint it), but would definitely not be worth the effort of piecing together numerous pieces unless you already had a good supply of suitable proportions to use.  If it's a smaller carriage, why not?

Silly me...Should have just pointed you to my link:
Quote
Because of the trees' short height and low hanging branches, lumber from live oak was specifically used to make curved structural members of the hull such as knee braces. In such cuts of lumber the line of the grain would fall perpendicularly to lines of stress creating structures of exceptional strength. Live oak was not generally used for planking because the curved and often convoluted shape of the tree did not lend itself to be milled to planking of any length. Red oak or white oak was generally used for planking on vessels as those trees tended to grow straight and tall and thus would yield straight trunk sections of length suitable for milling into plank lengths.

Offline dan610324

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 10:56:53 AM »
oooohhh holy s h   t

I would be satisfied with a few pieces of the branches
thats often the most hard and dense wood
not to mention the most beautiful wood

this is a piece of apple wood
will make a beautiful naval carriage some day
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Soot

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 11:12:55 AM »
I read somewhere that the USS Constitution was built with live oak under the water line and white oak above. White oak being 40lbs a cubic ft, and live oak is 70 a cubic ft. I have a huge live oak in the front yard that I just trimmed and it's every bit of 70 lbs a cubic foot.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 11:23:16 AM »
And has anyone used Live Oak for a carriage?

     Clum sum,   No, we have not and this is why:  


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Re: White Oak for Seacoast
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2008, 09:09:48 AM »
   
                               Background:   Frank from Louisiana had a bunch of Live Oak on his property due to a recent storm and offered it to us for building our seacoast carriages.  Unfortunately, after some research, we knew why no lumber yard, even those dealing with lesser used types, carried this type of oak.  Read what the woodworking experts have to say; we have never used Live Oak, because we don't have the infinite amount of time which would be necessary to know how to work it best and what it would do under all conditions of humidity.

    "Frank,   We were taking you seriously, so we studied up on Live Oak and here is what we found.  From various sources including forestry depts. of university extensions we found the reason why no lumber of this type, Quercus Virgianus (Southern Live Oak) is carried by any yard in the United States.  First is that very few pieces of straight lumber can be milled from the typical size tree. The very qualities which made it desirable for 18th and 19th century ship construction, lots of knees or large branch/trunk junctions yielding the "L" shaped knee used to support the heavy wooden decks, make it impossible to market today.  Unfortunately the second reason, that of being almost impossible to dry and lack of stability while drying, is worse.

     From Woodweb.com we get this:

Live oak is a separate category. It is extremely difficult to dry. It was often not dried at all. It is Quercus virginiana. It was used in ship building (especially in areas that might get hit from a cannonball, as the wood is extremely tough and hard).

Gene Wengert, forum technical advisor

    From every other source we looked at, we saw repeatedly this caution:

                      "If you are tempted to use Southern Live Oak in any type of furniture construction, please be aware that extreme warping, twisting and bowing can occur, even after kiln drying, causing the destruction of your carefully crafted piece."


     Finally, we really appreciate the offer Frank and it is really a shame that this wood cannot be put to a more constructive use than firewood, but for the reasons above we will have to keep on looking.  Thank you for thinking about us!"

Best regards,

Tracy and Mike


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline carronader

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 11:51:07 AM »
maybe not sent in my direction.........but info is appreciated Seacoast.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline clum sum

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 12:11:23 PM »
Sorry I will try to do better. I have a Hern carranade 300#,40" longe and 2 1/4" bore. Will have pics as soon as I learn how,I use old age as an excuse even though a longe time ago I worked on the Air Forces first solid state main frame. Have ordered a longe flute drill bit for the vent,am cleaning up the out side and as soon as I find what I wont I will hone the bore. Will keep yual informed. And thanks for the advice.
A man's hand shake is his bond.
                     Joe R. Risley Jr.

Offline Double D

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 12:57:41 PM »
Keep in mind since that is sleeve bore you are going to need a vent liner...

Offline Rickk

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 01:14:52 PM »
When it is done it might look something like this....



 

I recall picking up some sandpaper and playing with it for a few minutes before realizing that I would be adding several weeks of build time if I wanted to sand it all pretty. Cast iron does not sand well. It is as tough as iron. Even sanding with an angle grinder will take quite a bit of time as the round barrel is not the shape that an angle grinder sanding disk wants to sand. Maybe a flapper sanding thingy might work, but you will need to go thru a couple hundred of them before you are finished. You will use bondo if you want to deal with the bigger imperfections.

The surface texture does not bother me in the least. I don't even notice it. I used epoxy spraypaint when I painted it. That was before I new about POR-15. POR-15 is a way better paint, indestructible. It also goes on thick and smooth, so it would hide lots of surface imperfections. It's what I will use if this ever needs repainting.

O ya, after this picture was taken I put a couple coats of Boeshield wax on it. That smooths things out quite a bit and protects as well.

Offline clum sum

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 01:49:32 PM »
More ?s what is POR-15 paint and why a vent liner?
  Thanks
A man's hand shake is his bond.
                     Joe R. Risley Jr.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 01:58:47 PM »
 :o 8) Yikes ! Do you own that !!!!!! .......' I'll seeeee yoouuu in Montaaana ;) that is THE best calender picture I ever saw .

even if you was to miss in close .....I think your head would collapse within 30 feet or so just cause your brains have been scrambled ,

'Here is your brain ,Here is your brain scrambbled and GOOD ' :o

...Darn thats a wicked thing ........ How long have you had it ?

That epoxy idea sounds good ,BTW what is the one you would use now ? Theres lots of stuff that has bondo on it . When I sanded down my first Opel GT to paint the whole hood had been 'touched up' factory bondo . The sky blue kind .

These granite counter tops all have filler , because there are inclusions .

BUT hokie mokie it sure would be embarrassing to have a pieces of your barrel fall off at a shoot .

Uuuhh ? er ummm ....."there uhh seems to be something wrong with my ships cannon today ." :'( :-[

I'm sure you'd get a smart alex nickname on the spot ! maybe "Chip"

Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 02:30:39 PM »
Vent liner is a tube that goes in the vent and makes a continous path from out side of the cannon to the powder chamber.  This will cover up the seam between the inner steel liner and cast steel outer so corrosion won't start and weaken the vent.  Do not shoot your gun even one time with out this device.

Here is a diagram so you can see  the construction of a vent liner.  It's made of copper and has a seat in it to seal the bottom of the vent so powder gases don't pass around the vent.

 

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 09:41:11 AM »
When it is done it might look something like this....





     Rick is the only guy in western Massachusetts to have fresh tomatoes on the vine past Halloween.  His wife sends him out twice per hour on those frosty evenings to warm them a bit.  It seems to work!   ;) ;)  We saw his garden and that beautiful naval gunnade he made on July 4, 2007 and we enjoyed our visit enormously.  We even split some wood for him, showing how much we loved his families' hospitality.  If you want a big flash like he gets, you can use an old pyro trick and use a Cremora wad over the BP or powdered Lamb's Milk substitute, or you can get frame capture software, like we finally did, to grab that most perfect frame from your home movie.
Frame Shots is the one we use and it is dead simple which suits us just fine.


     Double D,   Why don't you give clum sum a break here and post that vent piece sketch that George fixed for you the last time.  He can't make what you have pictured, now can he?  Put some lines representing the liner in there as well.  Thanks.

Tracy and Mike

     
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline subdjoe

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2009, 10:41:00 AM »
Gulf, this tree looks like you can get some interesting , even beautifull grained timber out of it.Is it like that ? I didn't know about this tree either. How easy is it to cut ? machine etc. etc. Come on !  stop holding out on the foreigners.


A long stretch of straight grain is about 18 inches.  If you want to cut irregular wooden screws, live oak is the wood to use. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Double D

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 10:52:41 AM »
Here't the whole thread!!!

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,40858.0.html

here is the Picture is Teacy is referring to:


Offline Rickk

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 01:03:47 PM »
That particular picture was simply 3 ounces of 1F powder, cardboard wad, and a $100 point and shoot camera. It was the second time I ever shot the gun. The first time, a half hour prior, I was hiding behind my house having no idea what would happen. I do wish all my backyard "junk" wasn't in the background of the picture.

POR-15   ( www.por15.com ) is a urethane paint system. It sticks like you would not believe. It stays a bit flexible so it won't crack as temperatures change. From a practical point of view, unless you own a paint shop it has to be brushed on, not sprayed. I flows nicely however, so you won't get any brush marks when you are done.

To use -

First remove existing paint. Paint stripper would be best bet.

Wash well (soap water, rinse) to remove paint stripper.

Let dry completely. If there is thin surface rust, leave it there. Don't take it off. It works better with rust. POR = "Paint Over Rust". If after you wash it, the barrel is nice and shiny and rust free, wait a week and let a thin rust film start to appear. Light rust is good with this stuff. It give the paint something better to stick to.

Brush on the phospate primer, let dry.

Brush on clear POR-15, which is a one part moisture cure coating. I would use 2 coats. Let dry.

Spray with POR-15 Tie-coat adhesion promoter.

Brush on 2 coats of the two part "Top coat" in the color of your choice (black?). Let dry for 4-5 days.

Done.

It will not come off as far as I know. If you get it on you it is on you untill you grow new skin.

The whole deal is sort of expensive. You will spend close to $100 bucks on the entire kit, but in the end it will be worth it.

A tip, the base coat comes in several size cans. Get a few of the small cans rather than one big one. THat way when the can is empty you just toss it. If you use half a big can of it and you try to reseal it, getting the cover off is next to impossible. You can put saran wrap between teh cover and the lid, but it doesn't seal well and won't tolerate long term storage. Way better to use small cans and toss them when they are empty.

Also, when you mix up the 2 part top coat, use a metal can to mix it in. It will eat thru a plastic cup in about 10 minutes, You can buy the top coat in a bigger can because it won't set up untill you mix it. Just mix the amount you think you need in a separate container.

Careful though...
Avoid breathing the stuff. Don't work with it in a confined area. Don't spray it unless you have appropriate fresh air respirator. It cures by absorbing moisture. If you breathe too much in, it will cure on your lungs (which are moist) and kill you by suffocation. There is no solvent in it, so it isn't going to evaporate  for you to breathe in if you brush it on. If you spray it on though it will go into the air as a mist and you will breath it in of you aren't properly set up.

The POR15 web site tells much more about it than I just did,

Rick

 

Offline Rickk

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 01:07:28 PM »
Left Hand Threads?

Offline Double D

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 02:45:30 PM »
Drawing is from Matt Switlik's book The More Complete Cannoneer.  Full description of its use is found in the book! Nothin said about left hand threads...might be a layout error by the editor.

You can get a copy of the Matt's book by looking for it at www.abebooks.com.  When you look be sure you have taken your heart medicene and you are sitting down...Tim, the copy I gave you...naw you can keep it!!!

Norm you need to get on Matt...http://www.museumandcollector.com/book.html, 2008 was last year! :)

Offline GGaskill

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 03:01:06 PM »
Left Hand Threads?

Right hand threads work just fine, too.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Rickk

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Re: More queestions
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2009, 03:19:49 PM »