Author Topic: M1891 in 7.65 ARG What can I do with this thing? (Read 7247 times)

tgearrey · « **on:** October 23, 2003, 02:53:27 AM »

Hello,
My father has a 1891 in 7.65Arg. It has been sporterized. I believe it has matching numbers. Anyhow I'm not a reloader and the rifle is coming to me. I can't find any ammo for it locally. And from what my father rememberd, if I do find some I'll have to rob a 7/11 on the way to afford the ammo. I was wondering if anyone knew what round that this rifle could be rechambered to easily? Or is this rifle better left alone and tucked away in the back of a closet somewhere? I really like the action and feel bad to have a gun that doesn't get shot.
Anyway any advise would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Thomas

Jack Crevalle · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2003, 03:07:53 AM »

You might want to look around on the net, I did a quick search and found places selling loaded ammo for $1 a round and Norma loaded ammo for $2 a round.

Brass is plentiful if you ever want to start reloading.

Here's ome dirt cheap if you hurry:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=5086027

1911crazy · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2003, 03:18:57 AM »

You can find surplus ammo at both Century Arms International and SOG(Southern Ohio Gun) its cheap right now and most likely corrosive(primers) so you need to clean it good after shooting it. I would stock up on this caliber it hasn't been around for quite a while in surplus 7.65x53 FMJ. I picked up a case of this caliber but I really don't plan on shooting it much right now but its good to have on plenty hand.
BigBill

savageT · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2003, 05:13:24 AM »

Hey Guys,
The other part of the question/answer is what can he rebarrel- rechamber this to that has similar dimensions??? Would a .308 be possible?

Jim

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2003, 08:59:19 AM »

Savage T: Hi Jim! BigBill - chime in here too, especially since you have some ammo on hand.

For tgearrey: I think (I think) the 7.65 Argentine is a rimmed case (I think but am not sure). If you want to rebarrel that action you AND the 7.65 is rimmed, you can rebarrel to big bore rimmed calibers like the 45-70 or the 444. If the Argentine round is rimless, then almost anything goes for rebarrelling those actions and, considering the lack of availability of inexpensive loaded ammunition, the 308 is not a bad choice. HTH. Mikey.

1911crazy · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2003, 01:52:15 PM »

Its not rimmed its like the '06 case and i think some of these have been rechambered to '06 from 7.65 but aren't that accurate because of the 7.65 bore being larger than 7.62(30cal) of the '06. Someone mentioned that before here. BigBill

I have a peruvian mauser that was rechambered from 7.65 Argentine to 30-06 but I haven't shot it yet. I also have an 1891 Argentine Carbine too in 7.65 ARG its a neat little gun too. It started out in life as a long rifle and was imported here and was reworked by Ye Old Gun Shop in California they were cut back to carbine size and they bent and swept back the bolts so they would sell here. It reminds me of a swede m38.

savageT · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2003, 03:06:20 PM »

Big Bill you're absolutely correct.........The 7.65ARG is .311 inches nominal (the same as the British .303) which is as you know a rimmed cartridge, and the 7.65 is rimless. Sounds like a rebarrel is in order to get it down to a .308. Any chance the action would be able to handle a rebarrel to 8mm Mauser....would it handle the longer 3.25 inch length?

Jim

1911crazy · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2003, 04:36:55 PM »

Quote from: savageT

Big Bill you're absolutely correct.........The 7.65ARG is .311 inches nominal (the same as the British .303) which is as you know a rimmed cartridge, and the 7.65 is rimless. Sounds like a rebarrel is in order to get it down to a .308. Any chance the action would be able to handle a rebarrel to 8mm Mauser....would it handle the longer 3.25 inch length?

Jim

You just gave me an idea?? Why not use the 303 bullet in the '06 case?? That would make the gun an accurate shooter with the 7.65 barrel!!!! Its only .003" larger so it should go with no problem and the resizer inside the die for the bullet diameter(neck sizer) could be changed to the one for the 303 case too. BigBill

savageT · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2003, 02:12:51 AM »

Big Bill,
Great idea!! I don't know if it could take that long action cartridge....that's why I thought of the .308. As is the case with all milsurps, it would be wise to "slug" the barrel to find out what the bore is, then start using cast bullets in .311 or .312." If he wants to reload and use this for hunting purposes in 7.65mm, check out the Lyman Manual.

Jim

tgearrey · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2003, 05:06:45 AM »

Well I did a little bit more looking when I got home and discovered some of my info was a bit off. It's actually a 1909 Argentenian. But the 7.65 is correct. Since I'm not a reloader I need to keep things as simple as I can...ie. factory ammo. I really would love a .308 if this is something I could do with this rifle, I would jump at the chance. A rebarrel in itself might not be a bad idea..Will have to inspect the bore and see how sloppy its looking but I would guess it has had quite a few rounds shot through it. Besides a barrel what else is needed to get to a .308? (If all of this is well documented on a websight somewhere send me a link and I'll get myself educated... :-) )
Thanks for all your help
Thomas
P.S. I bought some ammo from one of the auction sights last night so I can keep myself entertained while I get this all figured out. :wink:

Oldtimer · « **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2003, 05:31:43 AM »

You can buy a lot of ammo for what rebarreling or rechambering would cost. The 7.65x53 is a sell balanced cartridge as it is. The action does not handle high pressures well, so I would leave it alone and just get a bunch of surplus ammo for plinking and a box or two of Norma in case I wanted to hunt with it.

CzaRon · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2003, 05:48:00 AM »

Take the plunge and start reloading. Cases can be made from anything with .30/06 head diameter.Lots of good bullets available. Check out Graf's .They market new brass and reasonably priced ammo from Hornady.DON'T rebarrel to.308WIN unless you have a death wish.To do that you need a 1909 Mauser,the 91 just won't handle the pressure.I own a M36 conversion and an 09.The M36 gets Starting loads and the 09 gets what ever doesn't show signs of high pressure. The 7.65 Mauser is a good load and does just fine on deer.

savageT · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2003, 02:40:07 PM »

Quote from: czarninakid

Take the plunge and start reloading. Cases can be made from anything with .30/06 head diameter.Lots of good bullets available. Check out Graf's .They market new brass and reasonably priced ammo from Hornady.DON'T rebarrel to.308WIN unless you have a death wish.To do that you need a 1909 Mauser,the 91 just won't handle the pressure.I own a M36 conversion and an 09.The M36 gets Starting loads and the 09 gets what ever doesn't show signs of high pressure. The 7.65 Mauser is a good load and does just fine on deer.

Hey,....Did he not correct himself to say he had a 1909 ARG in 7.65mm???
Does this then mean the action is strong enough for .308 ballistics?

Jim

Kenneth L. Walters · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2003, 03:41:45 PM »

The 7.65x53 is a VERY easy gun to find ammunition for. J&G, for example. Also Lyman has recently devoted a lot of effort in working up loading data. Dies are readily available as are bullets. Mine is unquestionably one of the most accurate rifles I have.

Still there are oddities. It shoots a 0.311 jacketed bullet. Mine shoots these perfectly but HATES cast bullets. A cast bullet, if it hits the target at all, will hit it sideways literally. Jacketed bullets for these run about 17 cents each.

1911crazy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2003, 03:46:15 PM »

If the '09 has a crest in tact I wouldn't touch it and would look for an orginal stock to restore it. These are worth quite a few coins in orginal condition w/crest. The ammo can also be found at Century Arms, SOG "southern ohio gun" and sportsmansguide too. BigBill

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2003, 05:36:35 AM »

tgearrey: Graf and Sons is advertizing new 7.65x53mm Argentine ammo for that rifle of yours. In addition, there are other manufacturers and distrbutors out there that carry that caliber. HTH. Mikey.

Kragman71 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2003, 08:25:08 AM »

The Argo cartridge is in the same family as is the 30'06,and all of the cases that I use are made from '06 cases. You won't find a cheaper case that has to be reformed.
However,the '91 action,which is the one that I happen to have,is not particularly strong. In my opinion,your best bet is to reload for it,as is.
If you had the newer,stronger,'09 action,you have many options to rechamber or rebarrel it.
Good luck,
Frank

thecowboyace · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2004, 02:26:06 PM »

bill8mm and Txquadhunter and all others who have bore, no pun intended but may as well let it stay in there, with my troubles and woes concerning the 7.65 Mauser, 7.65 Argentine, 7.65x53 7.65 Belgium Mauser, thank you for your troubles. Someone gave this gentleman my name and the troubles that I have been talking of and about trying to get my 'smith to rechamber, rebarrel, redo, which he kindly refused to change the Mauser into something else, leave as it is, or dont' ask me to work on it after it has been changed into a 'well, a word I would not say' said the 'smith.

Anyways this man seems to have a few things going for him as he is a:
Firearms Examiner, Police
Evidenticiary Examinations
Forensic Critiques
Firearm Report Interpreter
Appraiser of Firearms and their Evidence
33 years Experience in the field, world wide.

Got enough there for me to believe him. Anyways he sent me 5 pages that spoke more than paragraphs of words about the 1889, 1890, 1891, 1893, 1903, 1905, and the 1909 Argentine, Peruvian, Belgium Mausers.

One thing that surprised the heck out of me and out of Finn Nielsen and this is quoted by Finn, "When Norma first announced, in the 1950s the availability of 7.65 Mauser cartridges, I recall entertaining a certain skepticism regarding the advertised ballistics. It seemed incredible that a round of this antiquity, and especially one intended for use in rifles of 1899-93 vintage, could develop velocities of 2,290 fps while staying within safe pressure limits!" Italics are mine because I am flabbergasted by this also!

This gun sets closer to the 30-06 than the .308/7.62 NATO round? Is this possible? Looking at ballistic tables that I have found and yes it does and it is certainly stronger than the touted 300 Savage, which I thought, heard, was stronger than the .308, which it is not.

It talks about putting a 215 grain RN out at 2400 fps which is the maximum load which happens to be one of the two most accurate jacketed bullet load for this gun. It does say in one area that the 188 Cast GC #311299, 19.0gr of H4198 with a CCI 200 primer to be the most accurate cast bullet load. I dont know if this is against all other milsurp rifles since it only shows 2 cast bullet loads and they are almost the same in fps, '#'s energy. Somewhat misleading perhaps. Now the Norma 150 grain Factory Load twiddles out the barrel at only 2,894 fps. Now that is trucking it on for a 110 year old firearm with only two locking lugs. We have a pretty good idea that Norma will not sell something that is going to rupture a firearm that is in good condition. Or at least I would want them danged high-priced lawyers telling me what to put the max out to be.

Nielsen and Ken Waters agree with this statement "Hardest fact for this writer to accept is the continuing, even growing popularity of the old 7mm Mauser cartridge - admittedly an excellent round - while the 7.65 is allowed to languish. .............Even CIL's hot 7x57 loading with a 139gr PSP bullet at 2800 fps MV fails by a considerable margin to equal the 7.65's ballistic output.

Sighted in at 200 yds, you already have a piece that will place its 150gr spitzers no more than 8" low at a full 300yds and still have deer killing energy when it get there. So then look at the 215 @ 2400fps. Oomph! Falls down dead....no intention though of recommending the 7.65 for the big bears though. Yeah, but look at all of the other game and below. Black beer, elk, any deer, moose-maybe, caribou, yes.

He does recommend in going ahead and buying 100-200 rounds of Norma loaded ammo - only $370 but states that it will be for your gun, fireformed and everything. I didn't buy loaded Norma, nor did I buy Norma brass but I did buy 200 rounds of Graf and Sons. I have faith in them.

Message is long so will not put anymore in this post but will someone tell me, I have a scanner, how to post these somewhere. With this scanner I can scan these 5 pages and make them or rather turn them into photographs.jpg or I might can make them into files but I am not for sure that they can be put somewhere for others to read. I can send them to you in a file form in an email if anyone wishes this info plus some loads that he told me about. Don't remember the site but have them in files though. Let me know.
I am going to have the gun blued, the wood sanded down and I will have the new kid on the block.

If any of you wish to sell contact me at thecowboyace@yahoo.com with pics of your firearm. I truly hope that you do not rebarrel or rechamber those firearms with what knowledge I can give you.

As soon as I get 5-8 copied and posted I will put it out I have one page that I had found on my own about loads and there are quite a few out there. Ken Waters in his article has 25 loads alone in his article. And as being soft cartridges from Norma their 150gr factory load trips out at 2894. These can be loaded from 125 gr all the way up to 215gr Remington RN and Norma puts a factory load of these 215gr RN at over 2400fps. That is some knock down power.

AS said though, you don't think they are worth much, call, write email
Cliff Gholson
205 East Cherry Street
Olney Texas 76374-2133
940-5642523
thecowboyace@yahoo.com

thecowboyace · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2004, 04:41:53 PM »

Quote from: Kenneth L. Walters

The 7.65x53 is a VERY easy gun to find ammunition for. J&G, for example. Also Lyman has recently devoted a lot of effort in working up loading data. Dies are readily available as are bullets. Mine is unquestionably one of the most accurate rifles I have.

Still there are oddities. It shoots a 0.311 jacketed bullet. Mine shoots these perfectly but HATES cast bullets. A cast bullet, if it hits the target at all, will hit it sideways literally. Jacketed bullets for these run about 17 cents each.

Are you the Ken Waters that wrote "7.65mm Mauser pet Loads?" If so heckuva article, suprising that the 7.65 will load to almost the maximum that th4 30-06 barreled rifles, not the rechambered Argentines, which is a sin. The 765 exceeds the 308 by a good bit and certainly exceeds the 300 Savage by quite a bit. the 1909 can be taken almost to the 300 H&H Magnums! Suprise suprise. I can scan this article and put it somewhere if someone will tell me if I need to do it as a jpg or I can email the files individually.

thecowboyace · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:14:56 PM »

Quote from: Jack Crevalle

You might want to look around on the net, I did a quick search and found places selling loaded ammo for $1 a round and Norma loaded ammo for $2 a round. Brass is plentiful if you ever want to start reloading. Here's some dirt cheap if you hurry:
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=5086027

What you are looking at at that site, that ammo might be CORROSIVE ammuntion. I would suggest that you treat it as such.

AS far as plentiful, it is if you want to pay an arm and a leg for. I have found some new brass at Graf and Sons and it is $25.xx 100rds. I wish that I had bought the 1000rd or AT THE VERY LEAST 500rd. Next orders, i will have he 500 along with the 200 that I did order. Have all trimmed, cleaned and primed. Now ready to decide my powder of choice for this stuff and bullet weight, was going to use the 150gr but may go to the 174 or 180 as suggested as being the most accurate load for these guns. An Argentine shooter ruined his barrel, Haskell, Texas because of this brand. Had been shooting it at high priced Norma, Lapua, and shucks, I forgot what all he had said. All of these were fairly accurate but not as such as the Norma ammo was.

I received some letters and such concerning the Argentine from Finn Nielsen Consultant, Evidence Examined/Crtiqued for LEOs and defendants, reports interpreted along with the firearm appraisal of 'did this bullet come outt a this gun" a few weeks ago. This article opened up my mind.

This Argentine carrys more "whomp" than the .308 and certainly more than the 300 Savage. And if you wish to load the 215 RN it starts saying, "06, load heavier or I am going to pass you by" More 'whomp' than the Russian suggested loads that I have. I know that one needs to get as close to the same of bullet one can in these apples/apples, apples to girlfriends, oops, wrong place for that.

As soon as I get everything loaded up on Epson, could not get my scanner to change the scanned pages into anything except in a picture mode. That is why it is posted at http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4030688&a=31065727&f=0

It is shown in album 7.65 Argentine. If someone will help me get this stuff posted at a, mainly, gun board posting site I would appreciate it very much.
Take Care & God Bless
Ace

I am going to be looking for a 1909 so keep me in mnid.
Thanks
Take Care & God Bless
The Ace