Author Topic: A Most Unique Photo  (Read 2538 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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A Most Unique Photo
« on: December 09, 2009, 07:09:11 PM »
      What is the most unique feature of this unusual photo?  Look for small details as well as the larger picture.  We have looked at thousands and thousands of reenactor photos, but have never once seen this.  Also, a separate item; they are firing from a casemate.  Where would you expect to find heavy mortars in casemates?  Notice the uniforms too.

              A link to Ft. Nelson, Portsmouth, U.K.:           www.palmerstonforts.org.uk    

Well??

Mike and Tracy

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline RocklockI

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 07:11:17 PM »
I'm guessing a fort .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 07:29:44 PM »
Gabbions in the background, stacked pretty high. Also, on the left side in the background, are those cotton bags (bags for picking cotton) filled and used to reinforce the wall?

And - is that a carbide linstock?  The flame looks like it is coming straight out - heck that it is a flame and not a coal is noteworthy.

Not sure what to make of the light coloured pants with the blue (?) coats.  Militia of some sort?  And, if that is a Sgt. Maj.  it looks like infantry rather than artillery is commanding, judging from the blue of the chevrons.  
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline carronader

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 08:23:36 PM »
is that Haggis boiler sitting on wheels ?
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline A.Roads

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 11:39:20 PM »
There are mortars in casemates at Fort Nelson in the UK which are fired occasionally.

I have not studied thousands of re-enactor photos, but is the peculiar feature on this photo the thick smoke pattern - where one would rather expect to see a powerful blast of flame & smoke?

Offline cannonmn

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 02:22:51 AM »
I think Adrian is on to something-I don't see enough white smoke, in fact almost none except out of the vent, which could be quickmatch alone.  The clean outline of the flame looks to me like it might be a gas mixture, maybe oxy/acetelene, or oxy/propane.  The "linstock" with pointed flame, as mentioned some posts above, may be a clue.  Perhaps a more-or-less standard welding tip and hoses was used to charge the mortar via the vent, then it was lit and used to discharge it.  ???

Offline little seacoast

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 02:33:57 AM »
How about the fact that everybody is right on top of that mortar and nobody is covering their ears?
America has no native criminal class except Congress.   Sam Clemens

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 02:47:46 AM »
The mortar and bed looks British. The men are wearing four-button Yankee jackets. The only U. S. fort that would look like that is Sumter. Could be reenactment of  Union troops defending Ft. Sumter. I don't recall the fort having big mortars though.  Doesn't fit Sebastopol.
Max

Offline Double D

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 02:49:32 AM »
to fast For me Max Caliber....Fort Sumter....

Offline cannonmn

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 03:29:58 AM »
Quote
How about the fact that everybody is right on top of that mortar and nobody is covering their ears?

"Whaat?"

They're already deaf.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2009, 04:57:47 AM »
  Wow!  You fellows are very sharp this morning.  Mike and I think the most unique feature in this photo is the method of ignition.  At first, we thought it was some type of gas flame, but after looking at all the authentic props used to create the American Civil War 'Location' displayed in the photo, including the gabbions, (wicker baskets filled with soil), they remind everyone on this side of the Atlantic of what Fort Sumter looked like after three years of Federal Navy and Army bombardment and the cotton bags used in revetments like this one, also the flanking sand bags and plank structures to left and right and finally the uniforms, we asked ourselves,  "Would these hardworking reenactors really use an oxy-acetylene torch to light this beautiful mortar?  The answer has to be no.  We are going way out on a limb here, but we believe this method of ignition is the fabled 'Port-Fire', which until now, we had only seen in museums and, for such a common artillery igniting device in the 1850s and 60s, it is extremely scarce today. 

     The port-fire was a cardboard tube, approximately 1/2" to 5/8" in diameter filled with a composition composed mainly of meal black powder with extra sulfur and some burning retardant like chalk dust or crushed brick.  As we recall from our reading, the flame was similar to a railroad fusee or an emergency highway flare, continuously burning and hard to extinguish.  In fact, special port-fire cutters were issued which cut the whole tube off just behind the flame to positively extinguish it.

     As for the "pencil-like flame", we can only imagine that a real port-fire burned like a miniature RR fusee, the cardboard tube containing and concentrating the flame, albeit briefly.  It's possible that the port-fire flame was simulated by a gas one, but with all those historians, researchers and careful craftsmen at Fort Nelson, thanks Adrian, we like to think they produced a real port-fire!

     The unusual mortar blast flame was a simple frame extraction from a movie of the 'incandescent flame' which almost always precedes the 'flame and smoke' phase of a mortar blast, which, in turn, precedes the 'smoke only' portion of the blast.

    We are not uniform experts, so we will not comment on them, but all-in-all we think the Portsdown Artillery Volunteers and Fort Nelson people did a fabulous job here.  You can view the entire series of photos at the Palmerston Forts Society site here:

                              Palmerstonforts.org.uk

Thanks to everyone!

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Soot

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 09:07:35 AM »
Speaking of deaf, look at this guy.

<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/954heretic/other/artillery/Wallace2.png ">  Larger [/url]

Offline dan610324

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2009, 11:25:11 AM »
please dont fart george

Im trying to read the manual to see what that button does
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Victor3

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2009, 08:44:02 PM »
 If he lit it with that torch thing, how did he get back into the position shown before it went off? I assume they must have used a fairly slow-burning fuse?
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline RocklockI

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 09:35:27 PM »
And why in the world would they NOT cover there ears ?????????????????????????????
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 07:51:33 AM »
And why in the world would they NOT cover there ears ?????????????????????????????
If they're already deaf...

Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2009, 09:32:54 AM »
If they aren't firing an actual shot, the blast will be quite a bit less loud and sharp.  And maybe they are wearing foam earplugs.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2009, 10:20:14 AM »
I would certainly think (hope) that when you see all these skirmishers, and reenactors firing artillery, that they're all wearing some type of decent quality earplugs.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2009, 06:45:31 PM »
This is weird photo . The more I look at it , the guy on the right kinda sorta looks like he has orange plugs in his left ear anyway .

The other guy whose ear are shown...I cant even geuss .
The port fire is a gas flame of some kind because you can see the long tube going down his side .

As for the flame ......I'm not sure . It does look like an incandescent flame ,but on the other hand even with earplugs I sure as heck would not stand in the positions that they are .

Ask how I know ? Thanks for asking  :D

I was way too close on two occasions  ???up in Montana so I could film the shot and flame of the Mother of All Mortars !!!!!
BTW all photos were veiwed at 400 %  ;D :D

Believe me standing that close to a large mortar is not something I'd do three times why ? Because only a MARROOON would stand that close to it three times  ;D .

Earplugs or no ,inside that fort hole thingagy that mortarage thing would be mind numbing loud . Which kinda leads me to think it's a gas powered thing ,espesally with the flame torch hard wired in to the view .

And as always I could be wrong

4 frames later you'd and we'd know for sure ....So Tracy  ;D where did you find this frame of a video ?

Hummmm ??


Gary

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 09:25:19 AM »
    One of my major regrets is that I didn't save that beanie with the propeller on the top that I had as a little kid.  I could really use it now to keep my brain cool as I attempt to extract the few things that make any sense, and make the illogical, logical, out of this recent blurt of Gareze.  


The other guy whose ear are shown...I cant even geuss .

Yes, this and $1.79 will buy a large coffee at Sonic.

As for the flame ......I'm not sure . It does look like an incandescent flame ,but on the other hand even with earplugs I sure as heck would not stand in the positions that they are .

Believe me standing that close to a large mortar is not something I'd do three times why ? Because only a MARROOON would stand that close to it three times  ;D .  

 All we know, Gary, is that if you know anything at all about pyrotechnics, you could say with some confidence that only a moron would stand next to a maroon!

Earplugs or no ,inside that fort hole thingagy that mortarage thing would be mind numbing loud . Which kinda leads me to think it's a gas powered thing ,espesally with the flame torch hard wired in to the view .  Look at the new photos and rethink that statement.

And as always I could be wrong                 We are too polite to have a comment here.

4 frames later you'd and we'd know for sure ....So Tracy  ;D where did you find this frame of a video ?
Hummmm ??

Gary

     Follow the link I have provided in two places.  It will bring you to the Palmerston Forts Society site where you click on Ft. Nelson, then highlight the Fortifications heading, then click on Ft. Nelson Tour, then click on Mortar Battery under the Tour heading, then scroll to the bottom and click on "More information on the 13-Inch Mortar which will bring you to those marvelous pictures.

Whew!  I smell burning cork.  That was a tough one!

Tracy and Mike


There are no photos of the crew coughing and gagging after this shot.




Can you tell the type of chamber from that sponge or brush shape?




Heave ho!


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Soot

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2009, 10:37:09 AM »
More good stuff in the downloads section too:
Click

Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2009, 04:07:07 PM »
Odd that lift bar is so short.  I would have made it long enough for the loaders to stand beyond the edges of the mortar mount and long enough for four men to use.  All three of those guys are tempting fate that close to the muzzle.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline RocklockI

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2009, 10:44:39 PM »
     I do not believe that this fatalistic approach to loading this British mortar indicates a cultural clash, George, it's more indicative of a generational clash of attitudes.  Safety was not Number One in the 1860s as it is today.  If it was, we Americans would not have used the two-man shell tongs to load the 8" and 10" siege mortars or the 13" seacoast mortar.  The artillerymen serving the M1861, 8" Siege Howitzer certainly would not have pushed the loaded shell down the tube by hand if the Union Artillery Branch had lawyers hiding behind every bush the way we do today.  The methods used in those days were brutally efficient.  After all, the hand loading of the cigar-shaped, siege howitzer, saved the cost of a sabot for each and every shot.  It's very difficult for us to realize that this was reason enough.

Mike and Tracy
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »
I know the old timers had a more realistic outlook on life than is common today but these are reenactors who aren't facing an enraged enemy.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline A.Roads

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2009, 12:06:45 AM »
I think that you will find it is a staged photo & that the re-enactors are not in any danger of anything more than a strained back. The Fort has too much civilisation nearby to be able to lob shells like that these days.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 04:43:53 PM »
I think that you will find it is a staged photo & that the re-enactors are not in any danger of anything more than a strained back. The Fort has too much civilization nearby to be able to lob shells like that these days.


     Wanting to find out how much civilization was too much, we took a little internet tour of Fort Nelson and found out, much to our dismay, that the fort is located quite far from the more populated coastline.  It is, in fact, surrounded by acres and acres of fodder crops and many more acres of land that appears to be fallow or planted in grass.  To the west, north and east there are some large wide open spaces.  I know that Double D will be impressed with the lands surrounding Fort Nelson, after all, they look very much like Northern Montana!  With towns like Boarhunt and North Boarhunt nearby I'm quite sure he would love to visit your beautiful country and  help you and the Fort Nelson leaders talk to the nearby landowners and farmers to arrange exclusion zones and other special safe areas which are essential elements in the planning of any successful shoot.  We would provide at no charge extra long shell hoisting bars so the Portsdown Artillery Volunteers could perform their duties with a level of safety that even California's, GGaskill could approve of.  Below are a few photos which we are using to illustrate our claims.

     We have included a few photos taken in the U.S. to illustrate the guns and methods we use here.  We include these, not to boast, but merely to educate.

Respectfully,

Tracy and Mike


Looking eastward, notice the hay bales, plowed land and agricultural buildings around Fort Nelson.




Looking eastward toward Fort Nelson; notice the wide open landscape and the fort just right of center in the distance.  The 13" mortars need only 2,000 yards, just a little over a mile maximum range.  I am not a pilot, but it looks to me like we have 2 to 3 miles in several different possible directions here.  The shallow, white, "V" is the fort location.




This Union Columbiad gun crew loves to scare sailboaters with blanks fired from their original M1844 seacoast gun when they get very close to Fort Delaware on Peapatch Island in the Delaware River in the State of Delaware, USA.  They look forward to having a worthy target, however, and some plans have been proposed to have the 2/3 scale replica CSS Albemarle steam up there one day from it's berth in Plymouth on the Roanoke River in the State of North Carolina.  That would be grand fight!!




The CSS Albemarle, scourge of the Union fleet, a very well done replica Ironclad more than worthy of shot and shell from Fort Delaware, and armed with firing Brooke Rifles!




This is how those artillerists in gray get a little practice these days.  Northern coal barges from Ohio make desperate runs past Fort Donelson, Tennessee several times per week.  When they are spotted to the north where the Cumberland River makes a large bend, the Confederate reenactors prepare for practice!  Budge barrels are dragged down to the water battery shown along with rammers, sponges, etc., and the 32 Pdrs are loaded.  The rules of engagement are that no shells may be fired, after all you might burn up a lot of useful coal before you could land those barges in a spot served by the local fire department.  Only solid shot and grape shot are allowed.  Don't worry, the tug Captain and two crew members have WWII helmets on board at all times, so they're good to go.   ;) ;) ;) ;D


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline RocklockI

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 04:49:21 PM »
I'd like to here more on this ? That boat is awsome !
Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 04:59:03 PM »
I must say that there is some heavily populated area to the right of the fort in that aerial shot.  I'll bet they have their share of socialist nimbys who don't like the noise like the Constitution has.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 05:25:24 PM »
Which Fort Nelson?

Ft. Neslon, UK from Google Earth.



Closer,




Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Most Unique Photo
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 05:46:14 PM »
     Double D,    You found the right one.  Isn't that surrounding land beautiful?  George, I would not worry too much about the city dwellers to the south.  The fort is up on a east-west ridge and all the heavy guns including the 13" mortars are pointing north-east to west north west away from the population.  You will hear the guns from town, but not like you would if they were pointing southward.  Boarhunt is to the north north west from the fort, DD.  Wonder what they hunt there??

DD, you can check out some details on those Martinis you love so much while you are there!

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling