Why the Afghan Strategy won't work...

[Echo4Lima]

Rio, if we have an embassy in a country, there are military personel.   You dony know why do you. The Marines are the security for ALL embassies!! Agian a clueless BAFAAW...

[Echo4Lima]

Jeez  you guys are something else.  Did you read ALL of it or did you block something out?  I said we HAVE ENOUGH already...

Bye...

[Oldshooter]

We make a big mistake when we think they are just like us and that killing them makes them fear us. They don't fear us at all.

For one thing I dont think they are like "us". I REALLY believe they are Evil and they dont fear us because we have not killed enough of them! 

So lets install a democratic form of government in thier evil country and then the evil will be expelled from thier religion and way of life....

Now I'm getting it.

I dont think your sarcastic attitude is cute or funny and I never said we should go and install a democracy anywhere!
I did say and do believe we should make an example of any one or any entity that attacks us. And you do that by eliminating them or their will to wage war! Thats all! I think we have learned that from past experience.

 And No you dont get it! 

[Cabin4]

First of all Oldshooter, the comment is not towards you. Second, it is what we do! We are doing it in Afghanistan and Iraq and it was the publicly stated objectives of the bush administration now being forwarded by the Obama admin. We have tried this crape in other countries over the years. So to say it’s just sarcastic misses the truth.

Third, I never said we should not strike back against those that attack us. In fact, targeted strikes can work when the circumstances are correct. But this falls far short of nation building.

Fourth, I'm critical of our complete inability to secure our ports & borders. Apparently, the war mongering crowd is so fixated on trying to kill all 1 billion muslins and install democracy, they are not very concerned with the exposure this critical issue presents.

[Oldshooter]

I am fully aware of the fallacy of the past!  and I don't think we should try to kill all Muslims! but we do need to try and kill all who attack us(not get em a lawyer) and their support group! who ever that may be. I include our "allies" in Saudi Arabia and anywhere they exist!

I see no need to democracize anyone I simply want our military to do what they were created to do. Make our enemies loose the will to attack us! Indeed the enemy is hard to find these days but they are there and we just need to be more diligent in routing them out. Not only that but more coheisive in the will to do so!  We have a "gooberment" that wants to close gitmo and spend billions(that we dont have) on a prison in Illinois just to spite the last administration. Its all about the power not the country! Pick your battles for domestic politics but politics are not the place for national defense! I fail to see where this blame game is doing anything constructive for this country's defense and future!

OK I'm through Ranting now!

[alsaqr]

The neo-con artists in the white house botched the Afghan war big time.  Their colossal bungling allowed OBL and his entire entourage to escape.  Then the neo-cons decided to make the Afghan war into a NATO thing.  Rather than put enough US boots on the ground to do the job and then get out; Bush went all over Europe begging for troops.  Yep, he got some troops, but not many of them.  Most foreign troops came with restrictions on how they can be used.  Why did the neo-cons not send enough troops to Afghanistan to do the job?  That's easy, they invaded Iraq based on a lie.  WMD=Wanton Mass Deception. 

We are involved it a kind of war than has ever been fought before.  Regardless of what the US does in this war we will not weaken the desire of Islamic crazies to attack us.  Folks who are willing to blow themselves up for their crazy cause are hard to deal with.  If Obama is smart he will get all of the US troops out of Afghanistan ASAP.  Karzai wants the US to stay in Afghanistan in order to prop up his corrupt criminal enterprise.  As soon as US troops leave, Karzai will be dragged through the streets by his buds in the Taliban, just like Najibullah was. 

Spent many years in the ME.  Watched a retired CIA agent the other evening who told it like it is.  Muslims do not hate Americans because of our way of life or our form of government.  They hate our guts because of US policy toward Israel and Saudi Arabia.     

[rio grande]

Rio, if we have an embassy in a country, there are military personel.   You dony know why do you. The Marines are the security for ALL embassies!! Agian a clueless BAFAAW...

OK, how about this?  From Wikipedia. I'm sure I left out a few. "Agian".

You'll notice bases in Afghanistan and Iraq are not listed. Also our 'Missile Defense' forces now stationed in Israel are not listed.  

And as I responded previously, "... many embassies are used for spying and 'regime change', meddling, in other words. And that can be considered as to the cost, necessity, and "blowback'."  You know about 'blowback' I'm sure. It's sort of a mix between 'unintended consequences' and 'revenge'.  

Overseas

British Indian Ocean Territory

    * Diego Garcia

Cuba

    * Guantanamo Bay Naval Base

Spain

    * Rota Naval Station

Japan

    * United States Fleet Activities Yokosuka
    * United States Fleet Activities Sasebo
    * Naval Air Facility Atsugi
    * Naval Forces Japan, Okinawa

Guam

    * Naval Base Guam

Bahrain

    * Naval Support Activity Bahrain
    * Naval Detachment Dubai

Italy

    * Naval Support Activity Naples, 6th fleet/Command Navy Europe U.S. 6th Fleet
    * Naval Air Station Sigonella
    * Naval Support Activity Geata

Greece

    * Naval Support Activity Souda Bay, Souda Bay, Crete

South Korea

    * Commander Naval Forces Korea Chinhae, South Korea


    * Andersen AFB, Guam
  
    * Atsugi Naval Air Facility, Japan
  
    * Aviano AB, Italy
    
    * Misawa AB, Japan
    
    * RAF Lakenheath, England
    * RAF Mildenhall, England
    * Ramstein AB, Germany
    
    * Spangdahlem AB, Germany
    * Subic Bay Naval Base, The Philippines
    * Thule AB, Greenland

    * Yokota Air Base, Japan
    * Yokosuka, Fleet Activities, Japan


 Joint Forces Installations

    * Pine Gap Joint Defence Space Research Facility, Alice Springs, Northern Territory, Australia

 Posts

    * Caserma Ederle, near Vicenza, Italy
    * Post of Limay, Philippines
    * Post of Manila, Philippines


    * Sangley Point Naval Station, Philippine Islands
    * Naval Communications Station San Miguel, Zambales, Philippine Islands
    * Wallace Air Station San Fernando, LaUnion, Philippine Islands
    * San Vito dei Normanni Air Station (Italy; used for COMINT, a FLR-9 receiving system was installed there from 1964 to 1994)
    * Rota Naval Station, Spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases

I'm out of this thread now also.  Moving on. 

[billy_56081]

Part of your information is true and some shows how little you know. Guam is not a foreign country it is American territory. I served with several fellow American soldiers from Guam. Why shouldn't we have a military post in America?

[rio grande]

Part of your information is true and some shows how little you know. Guam is not a foreign country it is American territory. I served with several fellow American soldiers from Guam. Why shouldn't we have a military post in America?

Doggone it, Billy!  You are right!
OK, count Guam in.
May God protect your kids, Billy.
best wishes,
-rio grande

[Matt]

I am fully aware of the fallacy of the past!  and I don't think we should try to kill all Muslims!

I do not know what you are or are not aware of so I will not comment as if I do, but I am glad that you are not calling for the genocide of a billion or so people. Now mind you I do think that the world is way over populated and that we could stand to loose a few billion folks, I would just rather let natural selection handle it.

but we do need to try and kill all who attack us(not get em a lawyer) and their support group! who ever that may be. I include our "allies" in Saudi Arabia and anywhere they exist!

Ok but you left out a group... the worst bunch of sob's in fact and that would be our enemies in DC I would dare say that 95% of them are working as hard as they can to relieve us of Our Rights and  Freedom Granted Guaranteed by the Constitution. It is also this group and those before them that has gotten us to the point we are and by their (our) foreign policy.

Now I do agree that if at some time in the future we are attacked from another country or groups within it then we kill them. I see no reason to send troops as all that is needed are a few dozen bombs and nothing more. After the smoke clears if all the targets are hit then we go on about our business and if not we drop a few more till they are. Yeah I know there will be many civilians killed that way and that is bad blah blah... BS... If the people of a country are to scared to stand up to their government and demand a change in policy towards attacking another country that is minding its on business then I say kill enough of them till they are more scared of being attacked than their own government... then they will change it... so in such a case there are no innocents only potential targets.  Now mind you that this applies across the board to everyone... only way it can be fair.
  

I see no need to democracize anyone I simply want our military to do what they were created to do. Make our enemies loose the will to attack us!

I am with you 100% on this If thy attack us we eliminate them... very simple concept and should not be so hard to grasp.

Indeed the enemy is hard to find these days but they are there and we just need to be more diligent in routing them out.

Again I totally agree with you on that point but I just think we are looking in all the wrong places for the real enemy.

Not only that but more coheisive in the will to do so!  We have a "gooberment" that wants to close gitmo and spend billions(that we dont have) on a prison in Illinois just to spite the last administration.

Now as an American citizen does that sound to you like it is best for "We The People"? and if not is it not then an attack on the American People.

Its all about the power not the country! Pick your battles for domestic politics but politics are not the place for national defense!

I agree that politics should not decide our national defense but...ummm.... it is the "Politicians" who control our national defense so until "We The People" decide "They The Politicians" need to ALL be replaced that is how it will be.

I fail to see where this blame game is doing anything constructive for this country's defense and future!

Well lets see... The blame lies with our government who's foreign policy puts us at risk of attack, but once attacked the blame lies on "We The People" until such time as we give our government an attitude adjustment. Now I will say that after 9/11 they got an attitude adjustment... they sure did... they were told do whatever you want to as long as you say it is for our safety and security. Not quite the adjustment that was needed nor will it keep us from seeing real attacks on more of our citizens.

Bottom line is you can blame who ever the hell you want. You need to understand that the blame belongs on our own shoulders until we change our governments way of doing things and we are fair game for attacks.

Matt

[myronman3]

Part of your information is true and some shows how little you know. Guam is not a foreign country it is American territory. I served with several fellow American soldiers from Guam. Why shouldn't we have a military post in America?

Doggone it, Billy!  You are right!
OK, count Guam in.
May God protect your kids, Billy.
best wishes,
-rio grande

i wish everyone was this civil toward each other in these kind of discussions.  it is refreshing to see. 

[Oldshooter]

I am fully aware of the fallacy of the past!  and I don't think we should try to kill all Muslims!

I do not know what you are or are not aware of so I will not comment as if I do, but I am glad that you are not calling for the genocide of a billion or so people. Now mind you I do think that the world is way over populated and that we could stand to loose a few billion folks, I would just rather let natural selection handle it.

but we do need to try and kill all who attack us(not get em a lawyer) and their support group! who ever that may be. I include our "allies" in Saudi Arabia and anywhere they exist!

Ok but you left out a group... the worst bunch of sob's in fact and that would be our enemies in DC I would dare say that 95% of them are working as hard as they can to relieve us of Our Rights and  Freedom Granted Guaranteed by the Constitution. It is also this group and those before them that has gotten us to the point we are and by their (our) foreign policy.

Now I do agree that if at some time in the future we are attacked from another country or groups within it then we kill them. I see no reason to send troops as all that is needed are a few dozen bombs and nothing more. After the smoke clears if all the targets are hit then we go on about our business and if not we drop a few more till they are. Yeah I know there will be many civilians killed that way and that is bad blah blah... BS... If the people of a country are to scared to stand up to their government and demand a change in policy towards attacking another country that is minding its on business then I say kill enough of them till they are more scared of being attacked than their own government... then they will change it... so in such a case there are no innocents only potential targets.  Now mind you that this applies across the board to everyone... only way it can be fair.
  

I see no need to democracize anyone I simply want our military to do what they were created to do. Make our enemies loose the will to attack us!

I am with you 100% on this If thy attack us we eliminate them... very simple concept and should not be so hard to grasp.

Indeed the enemy is hard to find these days but they are there and we just need to be more diligent in routing them out.

Again I totally agree with you on that point but I just think we are looking in all the wrong places for the real enemy.

Not only that but more coheisive in the will to do so!  We have a "gooberment" that wants to close gitmo and spend billions(that we dont have) on a prison in Illinois just to spite the last administration.

Now as an American citizen does that sound to you like it is best for "We The People"? and if not is it not then an attack on the American People.

Its all about the power not the country! Pick your battles for domestic politics but politics are not the place for national defense!

I agree that politics should not decide our national defense but...ummm.... it is the "Politicians" who control our national defense so until "We The People" decide "They The Politicians" need to ALL be replaced that is how it will be.

I fail to see where this blame game is doing anything constructive for this country's defense and future!

Well lets see... The blame lies with our government who's foreign policy puts us at risk of attack, but once attacked the blame lies on "We The People" until such time as we give our government an attitude adjustment. Now I will say that after 9/11 they got an attitude adjustment... they sure did... they were told do whatever you want to as long as you say it is for our safety and security. Not quite the adjustment that was needed nor will it keep us from seeing real attacks on more of our citizens.

Bottom line is you can blame who ever the hell you want. You need to understand that the blame belongs on our own shoulders until we change our governments way of doing things and we are fair game for attacks.

Matt

Well you make some good points Matt but I'm thinking we are arguing the same points in the same direction. No i take it for granted that the gooberment is the enemy of the people they prove that everyday! And i ain't just saying the present one. And I wont go into who's the "lessor evil" here!!!!!  the Gist of your post , if I'm not mistaken is, that "we have met the enemy and he is us" And you get no argument from me there.Philosophically anyway. What I have said in this thread(or tried to) and in others is what I think we should have done and should do to attackers and enemies of "we the people" foreign or domestic!  Maybe the things I did not say made the things I did sound confusing. MY short comings with composition I hope do not weaken my message!
As to the Gitmo thing, Hell yea it is an attack and it aint an accident! just like the show trial in New York and the arrest and crimminalization of the panty bomber. In my estimation he shudda been taken from the plane and given his wish, blown up in a pasture tied to a hog! no virgins and no trial!

[Cabin4]

the gooberment is the enemy of the people they prove that everyday! And i ain't just saying the present one. And I wont go into who's the "lessor evil" here!!!!! 

We certainly do agree on this point! The enemy of the the people is Washington and every state house in the country. It has become a beast out of control who derives its life blood from our tax dollars.

[ironglow]

Rio;
   Using those instances of US "occupation" of foreign places to affirm your charges of American "imperialism", simply highlights your extreme gullibility when you are being manipulated by an adroit handler..such as Lew Rockwell. Anyone with the smallest familiarity with international relations, upon reading the list..realizes that nearly 100% of those are either military bases or embassies which are authorized and maintained with the blessing of the local governments. In many cases the installations greatly help the local economies.
  Your charge of imperialism is vapid indeed, when asked .."Which of these military bases has the US claimed as their soveriegn territory, and where has the US moved in, planted our flag and called it our colony ?"
  The only exceptions are embassies and Gitmo; embassies are generally considered under a special agreement between governments. Gitmo was leased to us long term, well before the current Communist government seized power..so our contract there pre-dates the current govt.
  Imperialism !...On the contrary, the US has proven the yammering of political incendiaries who accuse USA of being "imperialist" to be liars of the first order.  Memories of some are very short..during the 20th century, the US returned captured territory such as Cuba, the Philippines and Okinawa to home rule. Each of these could have been retained as "spoils of war", since they were taken over as a result of the former government having ventured into war with us...but no; we opted to return fairly won territory...
      Your charges of imperialism, NWO.and all forms of conspiracy obviously come from Lew Rockwell and his ilk. He has great allies in his disinformation rantings..some people who once were effective; either through being passed over for promotion or having a hangup such as anti-semitism..have become malcontents and muck rakers. People such as Karen Kwiatkowski, one of his leading contributors..Once a Lt Colonel, moved on to work for the likes of Lyndon LaRouche, Salon magazine and George Soros'  website.. MoveOn.org ! Those "qualifications" obviously made her an excellent recruit for Rockwell..
   Rockwell throws in with the radical left..addressing their anti war (read, anti US) rallies, and helping our enemies whine about Club Gitmo and Abu Gharib.
  
  For those who wonder where the conspiracy crowd gets their twisted info and many of the terms, phrases and catch words they use....here's a good description of the "Rockwellian" world view;

  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1597980/posts

  

[ironglow]

  Here's where some of the goofy "conspiracy" theories come from;

   http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski89.html

[ironglow]

  And here's a winner..for the anti-semites among us..Read one of the Rockwellian minions, Paul Craig Roberts...
   Did you realize the christmas day "underpants bomber" was an Israeli in disguise ?

   http://www.creators.com/opinion/paul-craig-roberts.html

[Cabin4]

I charge that there is a clear NWO movement/conspiracy and anyone that does not believe there is an NWO movement has his head in a "machine shop fit" up his rectum. It may not be a council that meets on a daily basis and publishes it's plot and plan but their clearly is some good level of coordination and common theology based on the growing global humanist movement. The UN is the center of this coordination and they are plotting to undercut our Rights on OUR soil. That place in New York, IS the second HQ of the enemies of this land.

[ironglow]

  Yes; I agree..government, when it gets to overwhelming and wants to be control freaks as the present administration is and many state houses are..can actually become the enemy of the people. We are nearing that with this Obamanation. However, we should be cautious about how we approach the problem
  Germany in the early 30s wanted a change ..as did the Russians in 1917 and Venezuela more recently..be careful what you wish for ..you may get it !
  Asd I read it, the folks such as Rockwell have lots of things they dislike about our country, and so ..go on and on "cursing the darkness" ! ...But when and where do they "light a candle" ? What is their view for rebuilding, should they succeed in trashing the USA as it has been for nearly 2.5 centuries ?
  Most of the traditions and values of our historical United States are well worth keeping...let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water". For that reason, I believe the "Tea Baggers" are much closer to the direction we should go, than are the Rockwellians.

[Cabin4]

I never said I supported the Rockwellians. I only agree there is clear and convincing evidence to support a strong NWO movement that is designed to undercut our nations sovereignty, our constitution and BOR. The NWO movement must be stopped. Idiots like Al Gore are part of it, knowingly or not. Moveon.org is part of it knowingly. As an example, the Global Warming hysterias being propagated by the UN and its ilk is one of the NWO strategies being used to redistribute wealth from rich countries to poor ones through Cap & Tax schemes. Another example is Obama Care. Simply another scheme to redistribute wealth as a tactic of the NWO movement. Huge corp. bail outs and the TARP process which forces banks to take money from the Treasury so they are beholden to our Federal Government like puppets. Huge so called “stimulus” bills that take billions of tax payer dollars and funnel the money to support mostly union based jobs and political payback schemes. The examples I just cited, all happening all on our soil, all NWO connected either directly or indirectly as support mechanisms.

[ironglow]

I charge that there is a clear NWO movement/conspiracy and anyone that does not believe there is an NWO movement has his head in a "machine shop fit" up his rectum. It may not be a council that meets on a daily basis and publishes it's plot and plan but their clearly is some good level of coordination and common theology based on the growing global humanist movement. The UN is the center of this coordination and they are plotting to undercut our Rights on OUR soil. That place in New York, IS the second HQ of the enemies of this land.

  Cabin;

  Now you are coming closer to where we could agree. I never denied that there is obviously a tacit agreement by the athiest, humanist, socialist, malthusian elements to work cooperatively..I just don't see the level of conspiracy that some do. I don't see every high level meeting of world meetings as a conspiracy and I don't believe that all national leaders are in the same drive toward some kind of Orwellian takeover. I see most of the political left involved in trying to subvert the Constitution and junk our traditional values We on the right should unite to keep the left from destroying our historical America
  Much of the problem is the right fails to find "common cause' enough to fight incrementally, with a united front for what we want...the way the left does.
  Heart and soul of the "keep the good parts of America" are the Judeo-Christian and traditional values folks, as evidenced by the "tea parties". By letting some anti Christian or anti Semitic demigoges peel away some of the right wing..we lose influence. We on the right should find common ground and those principles we are willing to fight for ..and go after them.
   Don't worry if you're not really a Christian, you can still drive for the VALUES we share.

  Cabin..we agree on much, much more than we disagree on...

[Matt]

Well you make some good points Matt but I'm thinking we are arguing the same points in the same direction.

More or less I think you are right we do agree on many of the points but there are a few that we dont.

As to the Gitmo thing, Hell yea it is an attack and it aint an accident! just like the show trial in New York and the arrest and crimminalization of the panty bomber. In my estimation he shudda been taken from the plane and given his wish, blown up in a pasture tied to a hog! no virgins and no trial!

Ok see here is one of those things we are not in agreement on yet. The reason I say that is because I think that most everyone here is of the belief that the "Christmas bomber" is a terrorist. The problem with that is the media is not telling us large parts of that story and therefor most are not able to draw informed conclusions as to his status or intentions. Now I know many will say his intentions were to kill Americans but I am just not sure of this. I have followed this story real close and have done many hours of reading and research on the topic and have formed the opinion that it was a setup meant to further suppress and control the American people and there was never any risk of the plane exploding.

Let me ask all of you this:
 If you have a dog be it a gentle dog or not and the kid next door shoots his sling shot at the dog every chance he gets just to aggravate the dog. What would you do to the dog if at some point it gets free and bites the kid in the ass?

To me I would tie the dog back up and tell the kid that is what you get... now leave my damn dog alone and if it so happens that the kid don't and the dog bites him again... he deserves it.

There is no difference... We are the kid with the sling shot and the "terrorists" are the dog but because of the disinformation that the media and government spreads most think that we are the dog and the "terrorists" are the kid.

I have no problem what so ever with killing those who attack us... if we do not attack first, unless a real war has been declared and then it matters not who attacks when, as all is fair in love and war.

Matt

[Cabin4]

No matter what the case with the fruit of the loom bomber, he is not a US citizen and is not entitled to the rights under our constitution. He is a foreign enemy (no matter who instigated it) and he should be brought to trial under our military, not civilian court. If you are correct Matt, and it is a set up, we have a better chance of getting that detail from a military process versus the civilian route.

[Matt]

No matter what the case with the fruit of the loom bomber, he is not a US citizen and is not entitled to the rights under our constitution. He is a foreign enemy (no matter who instigated it) and he should be brought to trial under our military, not civilian court. If you are correct Matt, and it is a set up, we have a better chance of getting that detail from a military process versus the civilian route.

You know Cabin, I just don't think we will ever really know the truth no matter how it goes or who investigates. But I will say that it is not a matter for the American Civil Court System.

Matt

[alsaqr]

No matter what the case with the fruit of the loom bomber, he is not a US citizen and is not entitled to the rights under our constitution. He is a foreign enemy (no matter who instigated it) and he should be brought to trial under our military, not civilian court. If you are correct Matt, and it is a set up, we have a better chance of getting that detail from a military process versus the civilian route.

I totally agree.  However, some decisions were made early on that make trial by military tribunal very difficult.  Unfortunately, the neo-con artists in the Bush white house decided that captured terrorists were not POWs.  So they hid them in secret foreign jails in Asia and Europe.  Finally the so called "detainees"  were all consolidated at Gitmo where some of them languished for years.  Bush released over 500 hundred "detainees";  many at the request of his bud king Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, who promised to jail them.  Wrong-Abdullah let them out on the street after they attended a few weeks of Islamic "re-indoctrination" by the same scumbags who taught them to be terrorists.  

The Bush bunch got slapped down by SCOTUS three times over their treatment of the Gitmo "detainees."  All of this crap could have been avoided had the idiots in the Bush gaggle just called all of them POWs and held them for for the duration of the so called "war on terror", which is going to be a very long time.  They could have had quick military trials for those who had committed terrorists acts.  No, The Bush bunch chose to do it their way.  Now Obama has decided to do it his wrong headed way.

[billy_56081]

Cabin I have to say you are correct there is a clear NWO movement in the world. The muslims openly state they want to force the whole world under the yoke of islam. They are openly infiltrating throughout the world and are awaiting there time. I know this aint the fancy super secret double naught spy stuff you like to imagine. But it is the real fact.

[Oldshooter]

Ok see here is one of those things we are not in agreement on yet. The reason I say that is because I think that most everyone here is of the belief that the "Christmas bomber" is a terrorist. The problem with that is the media is not telling us large parts of that story and therefor most are not able to draw informed conclusions as to his status or intentions. Now I know many will say his intentions were to kill Americans but I am just not sure of this. I have followed this story real close and have done many hours of reading and research on the topic and have formed the opinion that it was a setup meant to further suppress and control the American people and there was never any risk of the plane exploding.

Let me ask all of you this:
 If you have a dog be it a gentle dog or not and the kid next door shoots his sling shot at the dog every chance he gets just to aggravate the dog. What would you do to the dog if at some point it gets free and bites the kid in the ass?

To me I would tie the dog back up and tell the kid that is what you get... now leave my damn dog alone and if it so happens that the kid don't and the dog bites him again... he deserves it.

There is no difference... We are the kid with the sling shot and the "terrorists" are the dog but because of the disinformation that the media and government spreads most think that we are the dog and the "terrorists" are the kid.

ON this point we will have to agree to disagree cause i dont think it matters a flip what our foreign policy is the attacks will come. Obama has apologized and they still come. They did declare war we have not, we continue to fight this war as a "police action"

[Cabin4]

No matter what the case with the fruit of the loom bomber, he is not a US citizen and is not entitled to the rights under our constitution. He is a foreign enemy (no matter who instigated it) and he should be brought to trial under our military, not civilian court. If you are correct Matt, and it is a set up, we have a better chance of getting that detail from a military process versus the civilian route.

I totally agree.  However, some decisions were made early on that make trial by military tribunal very difficult.  Unfortunately, the neo-con artists in the Bush white house decided that captured terrorists were not POWs.  So they hid them in secret foreign jails in Asia and Europe.  Finally the so called "detainees"  were all consolidated at Gitmo where some of them languished for years.  Bush released over 500 hundred "detainees";  many at the request of his bud king Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, who promised to jail them.  Wrong-Abdullah let them out on the street after they attended a few weeks of Islamic "re-indoctrination" by the same scumbags who taught them to be terrorists.  

The Bush bunch got slapped down by SCOTUS three times over their treatment of the Gitmo "detainees."  All of this crap could have been avoided had the idiots in the Bush gaggle just called all of them POWs and held them for for the duration of the so called "war on terror", which is going to be a very long time.  They could have had quick military trials for those who had committed terrorists acts.  No, The Bush bunch chose to do it their way.  Now Obama has decided to do it his wrong headed way.

It’s my understanding, that we could not call them POW's because congress has not done an official declaration of war. So, they came up with this enemy combatant concept. Was it the next best thing? heck I don't know. All I do know is if we are picking up foreign enemies off a battle field, the DOJ and the Obama Admin are a bunch of donkeys cousins if they throw them in our civilian court system.

[Oldshooter]

Is it a War if we choose not delcare it so? Even if the enemy does! shouldn't we have negotiated with the nazi's like the british tried to do? Shouldn't we have let the japs have their oil in the far east even if they were attacking China anyway! they did nothing to us! Me thinks our foreign policy then, was intrusive and their Dogs should have been allowed to bite us on the behind!

If I punch you in the mouth everytime I get a chance, should you consider me an enemy, should you just call the cops and have me charged with assault and let me tell the world you deserved it.(even if I'm gonna get out and do it again) or stand and fight and show me that you will everytime!   

[alsaqr]

It’s my understanding, that we could not call them POW's because congress has not done an official declaration of war.

Nope, not so.  We called them POWs in Korea and Viet Nam and neither of those were declared wars.  The idiots in the Bush white house claq decided to do it their way.  If they called all of them POWs then they could not release some of them as favors to their Islamic dictator friends. 

Where was the outrage when the hacks in the Bush white house released over 500 "detainees"?  Looks like a lot of hypocrisy to me from the Republicans.  The dyed in the wool  supporters of Bush and his bunch thought that they were world class geniuses who would surely not release a terrorist to fight again:  You would be wrong. 

At least 20 percent of the scumbags that Bush released from Gitmo went right back to their old terroist ways.  The two scumbags who run al Queda on the Arabian peninsula are former Gitmo "detainees" who Bush released to the Saudi king. 

There are currently fewer than 200 "detainees" in Gitmo.  Now that Obama wants to do things a little differently, all the "conservatives" who gave Bush a pass are whining.   

[Oldshooter]

Now  Now, those guys are taking art courses to alleviate their homicidal tendencies!

they would never ever want to kill again the Saudis say so.