Why the Afghan Strategy won't work...

[teamnelson]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iqyaFh_efr-brDq0rMLF1hkop0tgD9CFAEQ80

Gen McChrystal was interviewed today about the ground strategy. The key to success for this strategy is to train hundreds of thousands of Afghans to take over security, but he identified that the center of gravity is mid-level leadership: NCOs and Junior Officer cadre. If he can develop them, and he's saying it will take 8 years at minimum, then we can leave Afghanistan.

It won't work, and Iraq proved it. Tribes don't operate in a hierarchical fashion, they only have chiefs and indians. They don't understand mid-level power, independent operations, decentralized command & control. We've been beating our heads bloody for years in Iraq trying to develop an NCO corps and Junior Officers, and its like herding cats. They default in a crisis to centralized authority. Just my spin having studied muslim tribes for 20 years, and spent two tours with a mission to train up local security in Iraq.

Your thoughts?

[Redtail1949]

your right it makes no difference what we put in place when we leave they will slowly maybe fast revert to the old ways. thats what we just can not get into our heads they are not going to change centuries of culture. they do not want to.

[alsaqr]

It won't work, and Iraq proved it. Tribes don't operate in a hierarchical fashion, they only have chiefs and indians. They don't understand mid-level power, independent operations, decentralized command & control. We've been beating our heads bloody for years in Iraq trying to develop an NCO corps and Junior Officers, and its like herding cats. They default in a crisis to centralized authority. Just my spin having studied muslim tribes for 20 years, and spent two tours with a mission to train up local security in Iraq.

I spent seven years trying to train tribal members to be soldiers.  Team Nelson is spot on:  It does not work. 

[Squib]

the faith of muslims is in the divine only, their allegiances are to their clans


other organizations may be convenient and even cherished but will never control faith and allegiance
                                                                                - "great brain" Ben Knox

[torpedoman]

Their system works for them just ask the Russians.

[pmeisel]

Trying to go around the world teaching other people to "be like us" is not effective...

[Squib]

the russians would even mow down their own people but couldn't put a few arabs in the third world in check... it does speak for the resolve of the "insurgency" in a forceful way.  a single-minded and extremely cruel military couldn't crush the resistance in the middle east so how can politically correct american occupation??? I don't get it?

[littlecanoe]

Beyond occupation, how were the British successful in the African Colonies?

[Squib]

are you rhetorically referencing their instability now... the nations within africa?  if so I don't know that any of those countries are doing so well.  hiv and lack of legitimate government most everywhere.  oh and genocide/ethnic cleansing too.  yeah, really happy place.

on the flip side I've heard good things about the hunting assuming you've got the dough to go, and aren't afraid of bot-flies, malaria and giardia

[COR]

It is unfortunate but the American people don't have the stomach to wage war because we are being raised by a nation of soccer moms that don't even keep score at sporting events. Once I would like to show them the hatred in the face of an AK-47 wielding 16 yr old Muslim that knows nothing but hatred through a religion that preaches death to infidels.  Don't try to tell me it's the radical 1% either, they all preach Jihad and death to infidels.  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs (although I would hate to waste a good pig on a Muslim).  This is not a new idead either if you know any history of man named Black Jack Pershing.  If this is offensive try watching a few video clips from the 9/11 attack...

The points about the chief and indian culture should be heeded as it is the absolute truth, they are not like us and they do not want to be like us...they don't understand a "middle class" of anything.  You are a chief or an indian, it is that simple.

They only understand the sword...they all want to meet the false prophet allah and get the 72 virgins (oh what fun they must be  )...We should be gladly arranging the visit instead of shooting for peace.  They don't even have a word for peace in that culture.

We don't want to win...that isn't the mission...oh yeah, whatever happened to the trophy buck named Osama?  Don't we still want his head?  Short American memories make us soft.  Do we want to just waste more time and try to teach a culture that hasn't moved an inch forward since the crusades. I don't want to change their culture I want it removed from the face of the earth.  We can read about all the amazing advances set forth by the Muslim community in the 19th and 20th centuries in history books ( maybe someone else knows of one).  Too bad we don't still have those crusaders...now we have politicians fighting a war that have never field stripped a weapon in their pampered lives...the same politicians that made Vietnam such a screaming success.  We need to wake up like the Israeli's and start getting nasty. I feel like it will be at our doorstep soon enough.  I hate to say it but is it going to take a homicide bomber stateside to wake us all up? 

[littlecanoe]

Sorry,  I really didn't post out all that I was thinking.

I recently had a conversation with my B-I-L who has had experience over there.
We discussed the tribal nature of that region and the difficulty in governing there on a large scale.

This got me thinking in the direction of Africa and the tribal issue that European countries faced when
establishing colonies there.  Just wondering if there is something to be learned from those experiences
one way or the other.

[billy_56081]

Kill all the men and breed the women. Make em all part of our tribe. Simple and straight forward. Colonise the placed and exploit its natural resources.

Conan said it best "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

Islam as aculture is a cancer and the culture of Islam needs to be eradicated from the world.

[rio grande]

.....I would like to show them the hatred in the face of an AK-47 wielding 16 yr old Muslim that knows nothing but hatred through a religion that preaches death to infidels. 
.....................  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs ....................I don't want to change their culture I want it removed from the face of the earth...............

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.  -Friedrich Nietzche.

[Cabin4]

Of course it won't work and obama knows it. Why do you think he never talked about victory in his last speech? He knows we can't win the war in the short term and he knows he must get our troops out prior to the 2012 election cycle. If the guy had any balls, he would get us out now. But because he needs to live up to his campaign promise, he can't back down so early on the "war of nessesity" as he called it.

[Squib]

like rio says... if we enable the military to go apesh** then we're gonna open up the pandora's box of co-ordinated government and military... scary.  I don't want any part of that.  We need to get our men home and lock down the borders.  mine the borders and oceans, satellite patrol the skies, not go overseas and fight a bs conflict for show of force and pride.  I'd like to see that enemy go down too but there are so many others that it's impossible to not nuke the world three times over. 

[pmeisel]

This got me thinking in the direction of Africa and the tribal issue that European countries faced when
establishing colonies there.  Just wondering if there is something to be learned from those experiences
one way or the other.

There is a good lesson.  Note that colonization has largely gone the way of the dodo.  Some countries that were granted independence (Australia and Canada, for example) retain good relations with the UK.  In Africa, all the European powers were expelled, a little at a time.  There is a long term trend towards liberty and independence in the world....

[COR]

.....I would like to show them the hatred in the face of an AK-47 wielding 16 yr old Muslim that knows nothing but hatred through a religion that preaches death to infidels. 
.....................  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs ....................I don't want to change their culture I want it removed from the face of the earth...............

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.  -Friedrich Nietzche.

Call me monster, and let history judge me as such, but my country will not live in fear.  You need monsters "on that wall" so you can get back from soccer practice without worrying about a roadside bomb hitting the minivan  .  If they fear us they will leave us be, that is the only negotiation they understand.  If a homicide bomber hits us...kill his family.  Word will get around very fast. 

[billy_56081]

I have no problem with Monsters, as long as they are on our side. I get a kick out of the hippy peacenicks who want to love the muslims into "peace". What a bunch of stupid tools, letting themselves to be used by the muslim animals.

[Cabin4]

Kill all the men and breed the women. Make em all part of our tribe. Simple and straight forward. Colonise the placed and exploit its natural resources.

Conan said it best "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

Islam as aculture is a cancer and the culture of Islam needs to be eradicated from the world.

.

Better put that on the tee shirts!!    .......TM7

And thats about as far as it will go........on a t-shirt.

[Redtail1949]

sad but true..they do understand total power and many great warriors of many different nation in history understood that the way to win is total no mercy overwhelmingly crushing of your enemy.  by such actions you will hear those on the homefronts screams of sorry and misery then and only then will have no desire to fight. only if you do that will your bring them down.

[teamnelson]

If you read the early writings of our nation as it formed our standing army & navy, we intentionally wanted to protect ourselves from keeping caged "monsters" as other nations had, by using a citizen-soldier model. It was understood that this would place a limit on our effectiveness in certain scenarios, but the moral value was considered the higher priority. It meant that we would not be good at waging war on others homelands; that we would not be good colonization, or empire building. It meant that we would only be able to engage in defensive operations abroad, and limited criminal prosecution. But we were fine with that. Our military regulations have not changed all that much in the main, although many disturbing precedents have been taken. The bottom line remains though that our military is most effective because it is comprised of good men representing their communities ... not blood thirsty killers set amok on our enemies. But that only works when we use the tool for the job intended.

[pmeisel]

TN, your post reminds me of a quote from Elbridge Gerry --

"A large standing army is much like a swollen (censored word), good for domestic tranquility, but a dangerous temptation to foreign adventure..."

[rio grande]

.....I would like to show them the hatred in the face of an AK-47 wielding 16 yr old Muslim that knows nothing but hatred through a religion that preaches death to infidels.
.....................  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs ....................I don't want to change their culture I want it removed from the face of the earth...............

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.  -Friedrich Nietzche.

Call me monster, and let history judge me as such, but my country will not live in fear.  You need monsters "on that wall" so you can get back from soccer practice without worrying about a roadside bomb hitting the minivan   .  If they fear us they will leave us be, that is the only negotiation they understand.  If a homicide bomber hits us...kill his family.  Word will get around very fast.  

Wonderful. You start out killing innocent people, family members. That doesn't work, just makes more jihadis. Then what? Where do you stop?
Monsters. A world full of depraved killers and torturers.  Pre-emptive strikes everywhere. Nuclear and biological warfare.  Kill first, ask questions later.  Hate thy neighbor.  Everyone for themselves. No rights, no freedoms. Anything goes.
A monster next door is no good, and a monster at home is worse.

[yellowtail3]

Don't try to tell me it's the radical 1% either, they all preach Jihad and death to infidels.  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs ...

Shameful, vile, and an embarrassment that you're a fellow citizen & shooter.

They only understand the sword...they all want to meet the false prophet allah and get the 72 virgins (oh what fun they must be  )...We should be gladly arranging the visit instead of shooting for peace.

Who is they, here? All Arabs? Or all Muslims? Or both?

I don't want to change their culture I want it removed from the face of the earth.  ... Too bad we don't still have those crusaders...

What do you know about the Crusaders, that you'd like to see now?

...now we have politicians fighting a war that have never field stripped a weapon in their pampered lives...

since when has that been criteria for anything, other than getting out of infantry training?

the same politicians that made Vietnam such a screaming success. 

Hmmm.. I'm wondering here, how many politicians you can name that are in office now, that were architects of Vietnam war?

[billy_56081]

I personally have no problem seeing the cancerous cult of islam wiped from the face of the earth. Too bad we have a bunch of yellow cowards running this war. It could have been over only a few weeks after 9/11 if ran as a war, not some peace making police action crap. If I could push a buttong and nuke ever muslim man woman and child in this world I would and I would not lose one moments sleep over it. In fact I think I as well as the rest of the world would sleep better.

[rio grande]

I personally have no problem seeing the cancerous cult of islam wiped from the face of the earth. Too bad we have a bunch of yellow cowards running this war. It could have been over only a few weeks after 9/11 if ran as a war, not some peace making police action crap. If I could push a buttong and nuke ever muslim man woman and child in this world I would and I would not lose one moments sleep over it. In fact I think I as well as the rest of the world would sleep better.

You'd kill one billion men, women and children....99.99% of them who never did any harm to you?


Reminds me of this guy...
'Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith."

[COR]

Don't try to tell me it's the radical 1% either, they all preach Jihad and death to infidels.  We should be killing them and burying them in mass graves covered in the bloody carcasses of some freash slaughtered pigs ...

Shameful, vile, and an embarrassment that you're a fellow citizen & shooter.

Relax yellowtail, Don't make it personal.  Be as tolerant as you want with them, maybe they'll leave you alone. 

[Cabin4]

I personally have no problem seeing the cancerous cult of islam wiped from the face of the earth. Too bad we have a bunch of yellow cowards running this war. It could have been over only a few weeks after 9/11 if ran as a war, not some peace making police action crap. If I could push a buttong and nuke ever muslim man woman and child in this world I would and I would not lose one moments sleep over it. In fact I think I as well as the rest of the world would sleep better.

These people would be glad to have nothing to do with us if we just stopped screwing around on their land and in their internal politics. I would prefer we have nothing to do with them. there is no mandate in our constitution for screwing with every freakin countries internal affairs.

You can wish them all dead but the fact is, it ain't going to happen. So our best bet is to just pull back from this screwed up planet and focus on America and only America. We can do this and it will stop the influence they and other countries have on our domestic policies.

We are our own worst enemy and our foreign policy breeds hatred of us and imports the influences of other nations into our culture and politics.

[billy_56081]

I personally have no problem seeing the cancerous cult of islam wiped from the face of the earth. Too bad we have a bunch of yellow cowards running this war. It could have been over only a few weeks after 9/11 if ran as a war, not some peace making police action crap. If I could push a buttong and nuke ever muslim man woman and child in this world I would and I would not lose one moments sleep over it. In fact I think I as well as the rest of the world would sleep better.

You'd kill one billion men, women and children....99.99% of them who never did any harm to you?


Reminds me of this guy...
'Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith."

YUP!

[billy_56081]

I personally have no problem seeing the cancerous cult of islam wiped from the face of the earth. Too bad we have a bunch of yellow cowards running this war. It could have been over only a few weeks after 9/11 if ran as a war, not some peace making police action crap. If I could push a buttong and nuke ever muslim man woman and child in this world I would and I would not lose one moments sleep over it. In fact I think I as well as the rest of the world would sleep better.

These people would be glad to have nothing to do with us if we just stopped screwing around on their land and in their internal politics. I would prefer we have nothing to do with them. there is no mandate in our constitution for screwing with every freakin countries internal affairs.

You can wish them all dead but the fact is, it ain't going to happen. So our best bet is to just pull back from this screwed up planet and focus on America and only America. We can do this and it will stop the influence they and other countries have on our domestic policies.

We are our own worst enemy and our foreign policy breeds hatred of us and imports the influences of other nations into our culture and politics.

Cabin, I'm sure that would be a warm fuzzy dream, but the fact is, islam is a cult with one thing in mind, control the world. When I was a young child I believed that fif you left bad people alone they would leave you alone. When I grew up and got some experiance in the world, I learned evil will hunt you down and it is best to hunt it down and kill it.