What kind of distance performance can I get with a .454 Casull cartridge?

[His lordship.]

I am toying with getting a large caliber hunting handgun and am looking at the Ruger Super Redhawk as I like the scope mounting system on it, and would use a scope.  I have a Ruger GP-100 and the .357 magnum is a good cartridge, but it does not have a setup for scope mounting, I have trouble hitting the paper at 100 yards with the open sites. 

My use would be for hunting hogs, varmint hunting, and maybe deer at a later date.  I checked on the data for the .44 magnum and it was poor for anything over 100 yards, the .454 was better, but can I use it at 200-300 yards?  If not than I might just go with a .270, or 30-30 caliber rifle, but I think something new and different would make the shooting hobby interesting.

Has anyone effectively hit their target at the longer ranges with a .454 Casull, or even a .44 magnum? 

Thanks.

[jjvw]

I think the large revolvers are only reliable to 200 yds. 41 and 44 only to 150 yds. The 414SM and 445SM can do 200 as will the 454 with its horrendous recoil. A contender in  7/30 waters, 30/30, 35 rem and the JDJ,s are better for 200-300, but an encore in 243, 25-06, 7/08, 280, 284, 308, 30-06 or 338-06 can do 400+ in the right hands.

[SHOOTALL]

We shoot a gong ( steel plate - one range its about 14 X 14 inches mounted at 100 yards , another range it 200 and one out to 500 yards the plate is 18 inches wide and 30 inches tall ) . I do so with 44mag. 454 casull, 45 Colt with little problem and least we forget Elmer Kieths shot at the 600 yard buck and also we shot 44 mags at 200 meter rams in IMHSA matches for years with open sights. The question you need to ask is if the load you shoot will down the critter you hunt at the yardage you shoot it at. As far as the 44mag vs. the 454 at range , a light bullet in a 454 is a real flat shooter taking alot of guess work out of shot placement .

[xphunter]

Beyond the cartridge/revolver capabilities, is what you can do repeatedly when shooting from field conditions.
You may want to consider a single-shot specialty pistol-It opens a whole new world in terms of distance.

[Lone Star]

Some forget that what we can do on a target range at known distances with known sight settings has little to do with our long-range field performance.  Too, a 14" square is "somewhat" larger than the kill zone of a varmint - at any range.  Maybe Elmer made the 600 yard shot on a running deer with his 6-1/2" revovler and maybe he didn't - but either way it was not a repeatable action.  Even a blind hog gets an acorn once in a while.....

For the OP's use he'd be better off with a 7-30 Waters or .309JDJ in a Contender - or a .243 or .308 in an Encore.   These are abundantly capable of what is asked, revolvers are usually not.



.

[corbanzo]

In a handgun, the chances you are going to be able to outshoot the ballistics of the gun are slim to none. 

[xphunter]

In a handgun, the chances you are going to be able to outshoot the ballistics of the gun are slim to none. 

That depends on your cartridge.
A bigger issue to me is to make sure you do not out shoot the capabilities of the bullet. 
If the speed drops  below the ability of the bullet to perform, you are in trouble too.
I know this may not be very often but it can happen.
Specialty pistols today can have the performance that equals many rifle cartridges.

[Sweetwater]

"Maybe Elmer made the 600 yard shot on a running deer with his 6-1/2" revovler and maybe he didn't - but either way it was not a repeatable action."

Appears we are casting doubt on the integrity of the Master? The writings and witnesses of so many of Elmer's events with a handgun leave little room for doubt of his capability. However, this is America and we are all entitled to our personal opinions.

Which brings us to the OP. It becomes "what can you make it do? I shot IHMSA with the 200 meter rams and my 41Mag Blackhawk was more dependable than I was. Still, it brought home antelope at nearly that distance on more than one occassion - with a witness. I was a lot more successful at half that distance - I always used open sights. With a scope, one would expect more. One thing to bear in mind is that all these big bullets have terrible trajectory as compared to the fast stepping smaller bores of the single shot pistol persuasion. My 6.5TCU was terrific on antelope at extended ranges, again, open-sighted. I've never had a scope on a handgun. A pal of mine had a 309JDJ and it was fantastic on antelope and deer. Also bear in mind, these cartridges require handloading.... and it goes on and on. So, you have to make a choice as to what you want to do, and then make a choice as to what you want to do it with. The rest is practice, practice, practice.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[corbanzo]

I'm about to get flamed.

I don't buy into any of the elmer keith hooplah. 

If the shots he made were so often that he made them, why isn't anybody else doing it?  Why is it all "accounts and writings?" 

With peoples interest in the sport, and the amount of practice and technology that gets used in current time, I don't believe that he was that much better, if all, than today's professional shooters. 

Every time a handgun capabilites discussion comes up, that same stupid name ends up in the thread.  Quit telling other peoples stories.  Honestly, if it is possible, SHOW ME.  Don't tell me what somebody told you to read that some guy wrote about some guys buddy who hung out with the friend of the shooter who by the eighth person telling the story was amazing. 

So yes, he shot a lot and was good, that is a general consensus, but really, shooting that much, you are gonna hit something far away if you keep trying. 

When I was ten years old, I hit a flying seagull in the head with a rock from a slingshot at 75 yards.  Am I the greatest wrist rocket pioneer ever now?  Never did it again.  A friend of mine shot a glass bottle at 300 yards with a 4" barrel .22 pistol - it took him about 90 shots.

So really, saying "this guy did it in a book" is not a justification for an argueable point.  GO SHOOT, tell me what happens.  You hit anything at 650 yards with a 44 mag, hell, you hit an elephant at 650 yards with a .44 mag, I'll be impressed.

[Elwood]

I'm with you Corbanzo.
I dont drink that cool-aid either.
Elwood

[xphunter]

My understanding of Elmer's shot was on a wounded Mule Deer first of all. 
Second, he walked the shots into the deer. 
The snow made it easier for him to see impacts and make adjustments.
From what I have read it was not some one shot kill at "X" of yards.

When I posted earlier I was not referring to specialty handguns using straight wall cases, but rifle cartridges.

[His lordship.]

One of the reasons I brought this subject up is that it is new to me to actually have the opportunity to shoot a handgun in the long distance ranges.  The gun range management that controlled the facility where I used to be a member of in Minnesota (Minnetonka Sportsmen) did not believe that handguns were capable of being shot past 50 yards, it was against the rules to even have one at the 100 yard rifle range.  I always knew that they were capable of shooting beyond 50 yards.  When I was in Oregon it was short range too, I did my target shooting in the forest of the Cascade mountains where the trees limited how far we could send a bullet.

Now that I am in Texas I can really see how these short barreled guns behave, quite a learning experience as some of them do well at 100 yards, others, not so much.  I was recently shooting next to a fellow who had a scoped Smith and Wesson in .460, he was getting good groups at 100 yards.  I suspect that he could easily shoot beyond that range into our 200 or 300 yard area. 

Speaking of Elmer Keith, I also read that Ed McGiverns had used an open sited Smith and Wesson to do some 600 yard shots.  But he was a professional stuntman with the revolver.

[Bigeasy]

The real question, I think, is how far you can shoot and always keep your shots in the kill zone.  Under the right conditions, 100 yards is comfortable with a scope sighted .44mag revolver, and in terms of bullet energy, a 454 should extend that range slightly.  No revolver, scoped or not, is a long range hunting tool.  Shooting steel gongs, or other reactive targets at long range is fun, and good practice, but game animals should be shown the respect they deserve, and taken cleanly.  Heck, most shooters cant really hit reliably at 300 yards with a rifle..  If I was going to look hard at long range big game with a hand gun, I would shoot a single shot like an xp-100 or TC, scoped, in something flat shooting, and low in recoil, like a 7mm/08.

Larry

[SHOOTALL]

Guess some feel range work is useless , what ever .
 I mentioned the plates to offer the fact that stright wall cart. revolvers can shoot well at long distance . I could have mentioned that we also pratice with paper plated at unknown distance. It one wishes to shoot long distance and is serious the addition of a range finder would eliminate alot of concern . I use mine alot not to range deer before the shot but to range objects anytime . Take a walk and estimate how far an object is the range it see how close you are . Pratice this exersise alot and you will learn the skill of ranging with out aid . Second you must know how many clicks to add ot front sight to let rise above your rear sight . Again pratice will make this second nature . Due to an injury i had not shot a big bore revolver for more than a year and when i did get to the range a new friend went with me . We shot rifles first and hand guns on a 50 yard range . we stopped at the then 500 yard range ( it has since been extended to 600 ) nd i took out the 7.5 inch Redhawk . The other guy ask what i planned to shoot . I said the plate at 500 yards . He said if you hit it first shot i will give you $100.00 . I never cracked a smile and ask if i could have 2 shots as i had not shot the gun for over a year . He goes you aren't kidding and withdrew the bid . I hit it on the 2nd,3rd,4th,5thand 6th . I don't say this to brag as i have made long shots many times in pratice . Pratice is the key to being able to do it first shot . My friend was hitting after a few pratice shots , he looks around and said its easy . Some mark the front sight with a couple lines for refrence . With a scope it only gets easier.

If you stand hunt then range some objects out to different distances and get ready. For those who can't see the use of shooting on the range to hunting i have to ask - if i know where to hold at 50 , 100, 150 and 200 meters why would it be hard to hit at anything inbetween ?

[youthpastorjon]

I personally would not buy the 454 Casull.  I would purchase a .460 Smith and Wesson Magnum.  The reason I say this is because you can chamber this gun with the .460 along with the 454 and a 45 long colt.  I figure I was going to spend the money, I wouldn't mind some diversity.

[xphunter]

One of the reasons I brought this subject up is that it is new to me to actually have the opportunity to shoot a handgun in the long distance ranges. 
Now that I am in Texas I can really see how these short barreled guns behave, quite a learning experience as some of them do well at 100 yards, others, not so much.  I was recently shooting next to a fellow who had a scoped Smith and Wesson in .460, he was getting good groups at 100 yards.  I suspect that he could easily shoot beyond that range into our 200 or 300 yard area. 

Chris,
I have taken whitetail, mule deer and antelope with my FA 454 (scoped/ 7.5" barrel).  Check out the video's on the FA website where Bob Baker connects on steel out to 400 yards with a 454C. 
Now, all of that being said, a straight wall case is NOT my idea of a LR hunting rig. 
In reasonable conditions from the prone position I rarely miss at a 1/4 mile at targets that are the size of deer size vitals. 
Most of the time I can do that quite a bit further out.  I have friends that can do this as well with single-shot handguns.
Before I fried my 7mm Dakota Barrel (just got a fresh one) I would hold my 3-shot group at 600 yards @ 2.5 to 3.5 inch groups at 600 yards off of a bi-pod - No wind flags no sighters with a 4" box as my aiming point.  Majority of the time I would keep all shots in the box or just outside of it.  I would do this with my 6mm-284 as well, but my groups was not quite as tight.  Where I live, distance is unlimited in many places.
I would recommend a bottleneck cartridge that will make it easier to practice and dope wind and deal with trajectory than a straightwall case.
If you just want a straight wall case, by all means get one and have fun.

[Sverre A.]

With 240 gr XTP/1850 fps - my limit in huntingsituations have been 135 yds (sighted in at 100 yds.)
Using 390 gr. Froniter FMJ - and sighted in with the abovementioned - I can hold "right on" at 100 yds.
With those two bullets - I cover "everything" (deers to cape buffalo).

[Lloyd Smale]

i personaly wouldnt hunt with any revolver even scoped past a 100 yards but thats just me. As to elmer like was said he never claimed the 44 was a 600 yard gun. What he did was put down a wounded animal with it and concluded that IF you could hit a deer at that range it did have the power to kill said animal. Ive read everything i could get my hands on about elmer and ive talked to people personaly that he considered friends and to a man they will tell you there wasnt one ounce of bs in him.

[Hairtrigger]

I was thinking I read in his book accounts of Elmer hitting jack rabbits at well over 200 yards.
Anyone else can help my memory? lol
The killing power of a 454 at 300 yards plus is not an arguement to me.

[corbanzo]

I can hit a jackrabbit at 200+ with my .454 - not every time. 

Still wouldn't hunt a deer with it that far out.

[handi243]

"Every time a handgun capabilites discussion comes up, that same stupid name ends up in the thread."



What we have here is what has been written and what stories have been handed down. Elmer did a little more than just shoot a mule deer. He was a writer and a guide let me think ol he also was one of the main people in coming up with that cartridge i think it was the 44 mag. What gets me in this is someone is putting down a man that they have no info that he didnt do what was said he did. Do i think he made that shot maybe but i think he had more of a chance at it then most people. Elmer shot ALOT!!! He grewup in a time when there was little work other than cattle work and a sidearm was standard. When you put your boots on your gun was next so whats the problem? If it cant be done try it see if it can or cant or do we need to call mythbusters. There is no telling how many bullets he fired in his life. Its kind of like picking your nose if you do it long enough you will get good at  it.. 

[corbanzo]

You know, I'm sure he was a great shot and a great person.  I'm just tired of hearing about it.

Even if he could do amazing things, everybdy else can't.

So when you are talking about PRACTICAL shooting, talk about everybody, not just one person. 

So honestly, read the title of this thread, "What kind of distance performance can I get with a .454 Casull cartridge?" 

Notice the I in there of the writer, who probably isn't a professional shooter. 

So when we talk about all around performance of a gun, quit talking about the performance of one shooter, we are talking about practical shooting for average joe shooter. 

[Hairtrigger]

, "What kind of distance performance can I get with a .454 Casull cartridge?" 

 

That boils down to how far out does the bullet still have enough energy to kill. The question did not tell if the 454 is used in a rifle or handgun

[corbanzo]

We are in the handgun hunting forum.

[Sweetwater]

, "What kind of distance performance can I get with a .454 Casull cartridge?" 

 

That boils down to how far out does the bullet still have enough energy to kill. The question did not tell if the 454 is used in a rifle or handgun

Further boiling will remind us that we have no clue of the capabilities of the OP and therefore can give precious little insight as to "what kind of distance performance can HE get with a .454 Casull". I've never seen anything killed with one, though a lot of you on here have. I have shot 100meter pigs on an IHMSA range with one. Did a fantastic job on them, but they don't eat well.
I also don't believe that it hurts to enlighten those new to the long distance game that "once upon a time" such shooters existed, whether they be cattlemen or exhibitionists or the gal down the street. "They" shot a lot and as a result of practice, practice, practice, they could "walk" a bullet into a target and make almost unbelievable shots look commonplace. I also don't believe in flaming, but that's just me, this is still America.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree and have proven to myself many times over that the shot was not only possible but was repeatable. Weve set deer sized targets out at that range and although we dont hit them everytime we hit them with a high enough percentage that i would want to be standing out there with my buddy shooting with two shots in his sixgun. Is any sixgun a viable hunting weapon at those ranges? Absoultly not! Like i said to me there a 100 yard max hunting weapon. In the hands of about 5 shooters in the US that may be able to be stretched to 200 but im not one of them. Even with a scope theres just to much room for error on a shot that far for the average shooter. The 5 shooters im refering too (and there may be a few more that i havent met) shoot more in a week then most do in a year.

"Every time a handgun capabilites discussion comes up, that same stupid name ends up in the thread."



What we have here is what has been written and what stories have been handed down. Elmer did a little more than just shoot a mule deer. He was a writer and a guide let me think ol he also was one of the main people in coming up with that cartridge i think it was the 44 mag. What gets me in this is someone is putting down a man that they have no info that he didnt do what was said he did. Do i think he made that shot maybe but i think he had more of a chance at it then most people. Elmer shot ALOT!!! He grewup in a time when there was little work other than cattle work and a sidearm was standard. When you put your boots on your gun was next so whats the problem? If it cant be done try it see if it can or cant or do we need to call mythbusters. There is no telling how many bullets he fired in his life. Its kind of like picking your nose if you do it long enough you will get good at  it..  

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen a 250 grain 45 colt at 800 fps shoot length wize through a whitetail so i would think that any load that starts out in the 1200 fps plus range is going to have enough ump to give side to side complete penetration at those ranges easily. Put a bullet completely through the vitals and you have a dead deer so in my opinion the gun has enough power to do the job if you could.

We shoot a gong ( steel plate - one range its about 14 X 14 inches mounted at 100 yards , another range it 200 and one out to 500 yards the plate is 18 inches wide and 30 inches tall ) . I do so with 44mag. 454 casull, 45 Colt with little problem and least we forget Elmer Kieths shot at the 600 yard buck and also we shot 44 mags at 200 meter rams in IMHSA matches for years with open sights. The question you need to ask is if the load you shoot will down the critter you hunt at the yardage you shoot it at. As far as the 44mag vs. the 454 at range , a light bullet in a 454 is a real flat shooter taking alot of guess work out of shot placement .

[wade45]

   It seems to me that proficiency comes from practice and then more practice. Then knowing your limits. I grew up burning more lead and powder in a year than most do in a lifetime, but that doesn't mean I want to bet a months pay in a 75 yard paper punching contest with a fellow who practices all the time and can throw six bullets in a nickle because he knows his limits of accuracy and proficiency. I could put six in around 2 inches thats my limit at that distance with a good rest to shoot from. But if he wanted to get into a whacking contest lets set a 5 gallon can out 300 to 400 yards. Then I'll bet a months pay because I've practiced doing that for 15 years and know I can swiss cheese that bucket all day. And why do I practice shooting long range? I read a book about a gent who grew up with a handgun,used it everyday, and made some hellacious long range handgun shots ( E.Keith ). So if one person can do something so could another. Like back in the day, the shooters of PeeWee Valley, Kentucky and there off-hand 300 yard live turkey shoots, with the popular calibers being the .38 special, .44 special, and .45 LC. So I feel the .454 will reach the distance no problem. However taking game is a different opinion at long range. I don't doubt the killing power with the right loads, its just too many variables come into play: wind, distance judgement, will it stay still long enough to make the shot; one half step miss or worse cripple, and so forth. My family would have to be on the brink of starving for myself to take a shot like that. However to throw lead long range is simply going to take alot of lead, powder, patience, and practice.   

[painted horse]

i personaly wouldnt hunt with any revolver even scoped past a 100 yards but thats just me. As to elmer like was said he never claimed the 44 was a 600 yard gun. What he did was put down a wounded animal with it and concluded that IF you could hit a deer at that range it did have the power to kill said animal. Ive read everything i could get my hands on about elmer and ive talked to people personaly that he considered friends and to a man they will tell you there wasnt one ounce of bs in him.

Yeah, but Elmer didn't have the "old 7 1/2 inch Redhawk".....   

[Sverre A.]

"What kind of distance performance can I get with a .454 Casull cartridge?" 

At 110 yds - my FA AND ME  - is doing about 6" in a sitting position - with my wrests between my knees - and the back against a tree.
And I don`t do it better when I lay down.