T/C Encore Looking ideas on Elk/Bear Barrel

[Captainkev]

Just joined the site today, although I have been lurking for some time now, getting great info from the members.
My question is :
I just got an Encore Pistol in 308 today.  I am looking at getting another barrel for Elk out West and that I can use for Bear as well.
I don't handload at this time so I need to stay with factory available ammo.
I am considering the 300 Win Mag, or the 338/06.
Any thoughts or input on these barrel choices?  The shots out West can tend to be on the longer side, 200 yards +, so I still want a fairly flat shooting round, but I think the 308 even with factory 180 gr. is a bit light in the energy dept.  
Any opinions on this would be appreciated.

Thanks,  Kevin

[spinafish]

In my humblest of opinions I believe the .308 will work just fine..Hornady makes a Light Magnum load if you think alittle more horsepower is necessary. :grin:

[Dalton]

I purchased a 338-06 rifle barrel from Bullberry about a year ago and I love it.  Mild recoil and deadly accurate even at distance.

Having said that I still would not recomend this caliber for a pistol.  You really don't gain anything out of the extra volume that the 30-06 case offers you in  a 15" pistol barrel.

I would probably choose either a 338-08 or a 358Win and limit my effective kill range.  Getting in close is what pistol hunting is all about. :grin:

[Big Gun]

My choice would be a TC Custom Shop 350 Rem Mag 16.5 inch with muzzle tamer.  It has plenty of bullet diameter to stop the big critters and is still on the lighter side of the magnum rounds to afford reasonable control / lower recoil.  I do not yet have one of these but will within the next year.

[haroldclark]

Let's do some paperwork on this subject before you buy another barrel.
You are using a 15" barrel and you can only get so much velocity from the short barrel no matter how much powder you put behind a given bullet weight.  If you have the QuickLoad Software by Neco, you can perform calculations to come up with the following information.

Let's start with a 308 Winchester in a 15" barrel. All data will be with a 15".
308 load of 42.2 gr/WW748 with 180 gr. Sierra SPBT at 2320 fps at Muzzle.
At 200 yards, the retained energy will be 1593 foot-pounds of Energy with a momentum factor of 1.60.  The momentum factor determines penetration and 1.60 is very good for an Encore 15".

300 Win Mag load of 71.6 gr of IMR 4831 with 180 gr. Sierra SPBT at 2444 fps at Muzzle.  
At 200 yards, the retained energy will be 1786 FPE with 1.69 Momentum.

An Elk will not know the difference between the two bullets hitting it at 200 yards.

Flat shooting?  Sight in at 200 yards for zero.  The bullet will be 3 inches high at 100 yards.  The heart of an elk is huge from what I've been told and 3 inches elevation difference is nothing in the excitement of the hunt.

Another factor is recoil.  I have an Excel Spreadsheet in which I enter all data pertaining to a load with velocity and I can calculate expected recoil from any give weight rifle or handgun.  I am being generous in my guess of the weight of the Encore 15" at 7 pounds.  

The Recoil for the 308 is 17.2 foot-pounds of recoil energy.  That is a bunch.  However, the 300 Win mag in the Encore is 27.3 foot-pounds.  10 fpe for a gain of 100 fps.  Not worth it.  The Elk won't care either.

For comparison, consider the recoil energy of a 3-pound S&W 44 Mag only moving out at 1200 feet per second with a 240-grain bullet is 17.5 pounds. At 1400 fps the recoil energy jumps to 22 fpe.  The 300 Win mag is 27.3 fpe.  


I also, looked at the 7mm-08 data and it is worth a consideration.
Load is 41 gr. of Hogdgon H335 with a Sierra 160 gr Spire Point Boat Tail at 2600 fps.  The 200-yard energy is 1778 foot-pounds with 1.59 foot-pounds of Momentum.  The recoil energy is 16.8 pounds.  Sighted at 200 yard zero, it will be 2.7" low at 100 yards.  With a good muzzle break on this one, the felt recoil could be reduced even further.

Review the above 200-yard energy and momentum.  Compare them.
300 Win Mag =  1786 fpe - 1.69 momentum Recoil 27.3 foot pounds
308 Win        =  1593 fpe - 1.60 momentum Recoil 17.2 foot pounds
7mm-08        =  1778 fpe - 1.59 momentum  Recoil 16.8 foot pounds

There is a point with a 15" barrel that I believe great amounts of velocity with a heavy bullet cannot be gained.  Maybe 100 or 150 fps.  The elk will not know the difference.

If you have Microsoft Excel, I will send you my spreadsheet with this data.

haroldclark@citlink.net

[SingleShotShorty]

I would have to agree with some of the other replies. The 308 Win barrel will do just fine for Elk or Bear with the right Bullet load combination. If you want to step up a little go with the 30-06 barrel.

[Captainkev]

Thanks for all the input.  I have decided to stay with the 308 for my larger game indeavors.............at least for now.
After talking a bit with a custom gun maker friend of my boss, I am considering his suggestions for loads to go with.
He suggested 165 gr. Hornady Interbond, Swift Scirocco, and Nossler Accubond.
I don't reload at this time, but I know a reloader who I am going to have set me up some test loads with these bullets to see what the gun likes.
Any thoughts on these bullets or loads that work well ?

Thanks again,

Kevin

[longwinters]

Harold, very informative.  It is hard to really find out the facts when comparing calibers etc...  Your work is much appreciated.]

long

[magbolt]

Thanks Harold.  How does the .270 fair?

[haroldclark]

The Old 270 fairs well in the Encore 15" according to my calculations.

With Sierra's accuracy load of:
130 gr SPBT with 45.1 gr Varget at 2500 fps (approx)
220 yard energy = 1229 fpe and 1.19 Momentum
This is good stuff.  The Recoil is tolerable at 13.5 foot pounds of pain.

With Sierra's accuracy load of:
150gr spbt with 41.4 gr H4350 at 2371 fps (approx)
220 yard energy = 1352 fpe and 1.35 Momentum
Neco's Quickload Big Game TKO measurement = 110 (100 needed for medium game)
The Recoil level at 16.8 foot pounds is going to be equivilent to a 308 or 30-06.  

Two days ago, I received an email response from Fred at Bullberry regarding actual felt recoil reduction with muzzle brakes.  He declares that his custom brake will reduce the excitement by 80%.  A 7mm-08 will feel like a 222 Reminton recoil.  I told him that the Thompson Muzzle Tamer will set my beard on fire if someone else is shooting it.  He declares that his will burn the toes off your shoes.  I am considering a 7mm-08 with Bullberry's brake.  My buddies have agreed to wet down their beards to prevent fire.

I have added the 270 loads above to my spreadsheets with the data.  If you would like to have a copy, please drop me an email and I will forward them to you.  Let me know if you have Microsoft Excel or Microsoft Works.
I just converted them to Works this afternoon.

Any other readers that want the spreadsheetds, do the same.

Harold Clark
haroldclark@citlink.net

[litman252]

Harold,
Where is that software available and thanks much for sharing.
Tony

[haroldclark]

Quickload/QuickTarget  by Neco
Their advertisement declares:
User friendly Ballistics Software.
Accurate Interior and Exterior Ballistics Predictions for
800 Cartridges, 140 powders and 2200 bullets.
Offered Exclusively by:
Neco
536C Stone Road
Benicia, CA 94510
www.neconos.com
707-747-0897 Phone
707-747-0898 Fax
800-451-3550 Orders


I ,also, use Sierra Infinity Ballistic Software and their #5 Version of the Bullet loading Manual in the software program.  Once you get used to using the computer version, you may never return to the "Book".

I purchased the Sierra Infinity (Sierra Bullet Company) program from MidwayUSA.   It is less expensive than buying directly from Sierra.

The Excel Spreadsheets are my own design and I made them up to keep track of all my interests.  If you would like the spreadsheet, please email me at haroldclark@citlink.net

Harold

[444encore]

Don't know what the ballistics look like through a pistol.                        But when it come's to energy at range that .35 whelen is a tough sumbuck to beat out of a rifle.