Canister round for 12-pounder Napoleon, July 1863?

[cannonmn]

I need to know the exact kind of ball used in the canister rounds that would have been supplied to the 12-pounder Napoleons at the Battle of Gettysburg.  Books I've looked in give specs for the 12-pdr. field howitzer round and some others but not for the 12-pdr. M1857 Napoleon, unless they are referring to that weapon by some other name.

Diameter of balls?  Material cast from?  Number of balls to one canister round?   Exterior dimensions of canister round?  What reference to cite for that info?

Thanks

[RocklockI]

Tracy will know this .

There Tracy now you are 'on the hook'

Gary

[seacoastartillery]

    Per Field Artillery Projectiles of the American Civil War by Thomas S. Dickey and Peter C. George these dimensions are stated:

       Provenance:   Federal         Dia.   4.5"    Length including sabot    8"     Weight    9 lbs  2 oz    There should be a lathe dimple on the bottom of the sabot.

    Per Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War by Warren Ripley we find that the canister balls were iron and of 1.48" dia.  There were three layers of 7 balls and one layer of six, making the total count 27 balls.  The canister was made of tin.

That's about it Cannonmn.  Gary, we'll take care of you later.

Tracy and Mike

[cannonmn]

Per Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War by Warren Ripley we find that the canister balls were iron and of 1.48" dia.  There were three layers of 7 balls and one layer of six, making the total count 27 balls.  The canister was made of tin.

Tracy, thanks but that's exactly where I looked and it did not answer my question definitively enough.   In the table I think you reference, "Chap. XII, Ammunition, Canister, there are four columns all labelled "12 pdr." namely "S&G Gun" "Field Gun"  "Field How." and "Mt. How." 

My problem with that table is that it does not appear to include the canister for the Napoleon.  The two outside 12 pdr. columns are obviously not right.  What remains is 12 pdr. field how. which we know isn't right as it refers to the earlier, lighter weapon.  The "12 pdr. field gun" in my frame of reference refers to the M1841 monster with dolphins, with tube weighing 1700 lbs.

I need something that specifies either "12 pdr. Gun Howitzer" or "M1857" so I can make sure it is the correct info.  Somehow I dont' think Warren Ripley would use "Field Gun" to describe a Napoleon.

The other info I think is good, thanks.

[Max Caliber]

You can find the information in the 1862 Ordnance Manual.

[seacoastartillery]

  I have no idea of where you looked, John, but Ripley shows the Mordecai sheet, Figure XII-8, for fixed ammo, so you have THE SOURCE right there on page 260, labeled:  Canister, 12 pdr. Gun which is completely different from 12 pdr. Howitzer, as you know.  The only discrepancy that I find between these two sources is a very minor one.  Ripley has the O.D. at 4.52 and Dickey has it as 4.5.  Are we really going to argue over 20 thousandths of an inch.  I think not.

Tracy

[seacoastartillery]

ditto

[cannonmn]

I have no idea of where you looked

pp. 379 has the confusing table and nothing mentioned for M1857.

I did just now find the right page in the '62 Ord manual and looked at Ripley pp. 260.  Thanks for the info, I think I'm convinced the balls should be cast iron and 1.46-1.49 inch diameter.  The "Mordecai" table seems to have all 12 pdr. guns using one type of canister, which would make sense of course.

I'd be even happier if Ripley had mentioned what the date of that drawing was.  The "Mordecai Plates" (Artillery for the Land Service...) came out in 1849, many years before the Napoleon came into service, so there's that little sliver of ambiguity still alive in my mind, that the plate we're looking is dated pre-Napoleon. 

[cannonmn]

Here's a response I got to the same question on the NSSA board:

I have a minor reference from Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson,Jr. book "Artillery Hell" The Employment of Artillery at Antietam page 27.The balls were cast iron. Long range canister had 27 balls for the Napoleon and 92 for short range. Long range being up to 600 yards per Johnson and Anderson. Good luck on your quest. Tom B

So we already have what we need on the long range canister, iron balls 1.49 inch diameter, quantity 27.  Now we need to know more about the short range canister, which had 92 balls per the source mentioned.  

What would be the diameter of those balls, and were they iron or lead?  What reference says so?

It may actually be easier to find a museum which has some rounds and check there, I remember the New York State Military Museum had a lot of partially-opened rounds of various kinds, I think including canister; gotta go back and look at my photos from there.  I posted them here, lemme see now, last May?

Thanks.

[subdjoe]

I don't have the source (two motherboards ago, and havn't been able to find it since), but I read in that illusive somewhere that the short range canister used the same lead round ball as was used for the 69 cal. smoothbore musket.  Which makes sense. The arsenals were set up to mass produce those.  I've also seen photos of canister rounds that look like they are filled with the belted ball that were used in the two groove Brunswick?  Burwick? rifle.  

[Artilleryman]

I don't have the source (two motherboards ago, and havn't been able to find it since), but I read in that illusive somewhere that the short range canister used the same lead round ball as was used for the 69 cal. smoothbore musket.  Which makes sense. The arsenals were set up to mass produce those.  I've also seen photos of canister rounds that bblook like they are filled with the belted ball that were used in the two groove Brunswick?  Burwick? rifle.  

Gibbon's has a table that lists musket balls for mountain howitzer cannister.  It does not say what size, kind, or number.  Gibbon's also lists three different types of cannister for 12 pdr guns.  A 1.87" for 12 pdr guns and 8 inch howitzers, 1.49" for 12 pdr gun and 32 pdr howitzer, and 1.08 for 12 pdr howitzer.

Twenty-seven balls are listed as the number for 12 pdr guns, and forty-eight for 12 pdr howitzer.  I don't know where the ninety ball cannister round comes from other than it might be the mountain howitzer.

My guess is that the standard issue for 12 pdr Napoleon's was the 27 round cannister.  If anything else was used it was probably used as an expedient. 

Still looking for additional information.  Good thread. 

[guardsgunner]

The 62 ord. manual list only the 1.49 balls for the 12pdr.

[Artilleryman]

Came across a reference that said there were 148 balls in a mountain howitzer cannister.

[Zulu]

I have a book called "The Civil War Military Machine".  It lists the 12 pounder canister round as twenty-seven   
1 1/2" shot