Author Topic: What can you tell about this model, is it a salute gun or what? (Read 1572 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** December 13, 2009, 05:39:55 PM »

Had this for many years, and have never quite figured out why it was made. It takes a .410 blank ctg, see reloadable steel one that came with it. Tracks are recent. Car body is cast iron about 1/2 in. thick all over. Carriage is a bronze casting. Barrel is turned and has 4-segment interrupted threads. The handwheels do what they look like they do, traverse and elevate respectively. The little steel handle locks carriage in rotation. The barrel is smoothbore. There are two recoil/counterrecoil cylinders under the barrel, and they work. I've never seen anything in writing about it except two pictures in a little "guns wanted" handbook by one S. Harold Croft. Can you tell me if this would have been sold as a salute gun, an expensive toy, or could it have been a one-off?

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums51/?action=view&current=12e5fe6e.pbw

Cannoneer · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2009, 06:05:57 PM »

I don't know the answer, but my guess would be a creative machinist's one-off.

RocklockI · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2009, 06:19:12 PM »

Have you filmed it and shot it Huummmmm ?

No clue .

Gary

dan610324 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2009, 06:36:19 PM »

thats a real quality piece
the one who made it must have been a highly skilled machine worker

GGaskill · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:20:42 PM »

What is the track gauge? It looks like the RR wheels are die castings. How much more of the car is a die casting? Is there any trademark or brand name or part number on the car?

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:58:23 PM »

Quote

What is the track gauge? It looks like the RR wheels are die castings. How much more of the car is a die casting? Is there any trademark or brand name or part number on the car?

The wheels do look like die castings. The tracks spacing is 4.25 inches on center, whatever that means in gauge, looks way too big for model railroads I've seen. There are no marks of any kind anywhere on this item. The couplers on either end are spring-loaded.

I'm thinking it could have been produced by S. Harold Croft, who was a famous gun tinkerer. Croft, who was independently wealthy and didn't have to work a "regular job" produced a number of special lightweight (modified) sixguns for his friend, well-known handgunner and author Elmer Keith. The .41 steel cartridge it came with takes a pistol primer. Croft seems to have started doing gun work in the 1920's. He lived until 1978, in the Phila. area.

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2009, 08:14:25 PM »

Track gauge is normally measured inside edge to inside edge. The standard gauges around that size are No. 4 gauge (3" between the rails) and No. 5 gauge (4 5/8" between.) Neither is very close and neither was at all popular, even in the '20's. It looks like the "rail" is welded to the "ties" which is not a common method of manufacture for toy train track.

So I would think it must be a one-off by someone with a lot of skill but not so much railroad awareness. Doesn't seem like people would be firing salutes to each other indoors.

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2009, 08:24:01 PM »

Quote

It looks like the "rail" is welded to the "ties" which is not a common method of manufacture for toy train track.

The tracks were made in recent years to display the piece, much later than the thing was built.

Thanks for the assessment, you are probably correct.

I think the antique gun dealer I got this from many years ago may know more about it; he's still around so I need to call him.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2009, 08:33:06 PM »

There were some rather large gauge trains made in the early days of model railroading, but if it was made by a quality toy company like Marklin in Germany, (they also made highly collectible toy cannons) you can bet that they'd have there logo somewhere on the item. There's also the fact that even though they made high quality toys, they nor any other toy company for that matter, was manufacturing cannons with anywhere near this kind of high degree of craftsmanship.

cannonmn · « **Reply #9 on:** December 14, 2009, 01:39:20 AM »

Quote

Track gauge is normally measured inside edge to inside edge.

Measuring again, the distance between inside surfaces of rails is 4 inches.

I agree about this not being a normal toy company product. Marklin in Germany made great stuff in the early 20th C. but you can always tell it was "productionized" so they could churn out many copies economically, and was always well-marked to the company. This railroad gun isn't like that, too much work-cast bronze carriage and cast iron car body are beyond what you'd see in even the largest, most complex Marklin.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 14, 2009, 01:44:16 AM »

I want to see the fully functional steam engine that pulls it!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2009, 08:11:50 AM »

Tim; I've still got the Lionel electric set in Super O Gauge that my brother and I had as kids, but ever since I first layed eyes on one at a small amusement park when I was a kid, I've wanted one of these large gauge, incredibly detailed ride on steam locomotives. I think these beauties are basically only going to be now owned by wealthy gents with some acreage (Richard would look good engineering one of these around his property on about five miles of track). A person could even set up a battery of signal/salute cannons carried on flat cars, that were rigged to fire by remote.

Someday when I'm a millionaire

GGaskill · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2009, 09:18:37 AM »

Live steam has always interested me, but like you say, it will have to wait until I hit the lottery.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2009, 03:25:48 AM »

Just for kicks, I'm going to contact that outfit, and find out what one of their locomotives costs.

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** December 15, 2009, 06:07:38 AM »

I just got this info from the dealer I got it from, many years ago:

Harold Croft owned it at the time it was in his catalog. I purchased it from H____ M____of Ardmore Pa. I think he acquired it from Croft himself. He certainly knew the man. There was never any information about who made it or why. The gauge of the trucks is not standard for common railroad, but when people hand make rolling stock and locomotives, they have a lot of leeway in their decisions. I would contact some live-steam clubs, and see if they can help.

GGaskill · « **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2009, 09:05:09 AM »

Actually, track gauge for live steam railroads is fairly standardized (except for the 7 1/4" vs 7 1/2" gauge issue.) There tend to be three scales, 1:8, 1:12 and 1:16 with the above gauge for 1:8, 4 3/4" gauge for 1:12 and 3 1/2" for 1:16.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2009, 07:23:27 PM »

GG,
We may have to pool our resources, the actual price is a liittle steeper than I surmised; for just the B-flat version of the steam locomotive and coal tender that Mr. Bruno Platzer (Master Model Maker) is pictured riding, the price is $150,000.00, with all the bells & whistles it jumps to $250,000.00.

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2009, 08:42:30 PM »

And what bells and whistles (besides the ones that should be on a steam locomotive) are included for the 100 grand extra??

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** December 20, 2009, 08:53:26 PM »

Quote

And what bells and whistles (besides the ones that should be on a steam locomotive) are included for the 100 grand extra??

I'd have to guess it would be the other cars, the tracks, water tower, ....

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 20, 2009, 09:10:07 PM »

I'll admit to being slightly in shock after hearing the prices, (and I'm not kidding either, I knew they'd be expensive, but not that much) but after I asked "you mean that's just for the engine and tender," he told me the top end 250 G model is made exactly like the originals: The controls, gauges etc., the suspension system, and braking system, everything duplicates the originals in smaller scale.

GGaskill · « **Reply #20 on:** December 20, 2009, 09:13:43 PM »

Most well made live steam locomotives are equalized just as the originals were because the wheels need to be able to stay on the rails and still deal with track irregularities. Seems odd that would be considered an "extra."

Cannoneer · « **Reply #21 on:** December 20, 2009, 09:37:49 PM »

Not my bailiwick, George. I know he mentioned the suspension and breaking systems being different. Here's a pic from the site, and I'm guessing that this leaf spring system is from the less expensive model, but the truth is, I have no idea.

Victor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 20, 2009, 11:35:13 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on December 20, 2009, 08:42:30 PM

And what bells and whistles (besides the ones that should be on a steam locomotive) are included for the 100 grand extra??

George,

Did you run across any of the model train guys/gals while you were at El Camino? The work that folks put into some of their stuff was mind-wobbling to me. I had a few students who took classes just to have access to the machinery for their projects over at Wilson park...

http://www.southerncalifornialivesteamers.com/About_SCLS.asp

I can see how a scale model of a steam engine might be worth a ton of money; I imagine if a nice one sold for $250K, the builder might make ~$3/hr for his labor.

little seacoast · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:52:32 AM »

Something else to consider regarding the price of this beauty is that it's a replica of the maybe the biggest steamer ever built, a 4-8-8-4-Yellowstone.
a smaller and more typical engine would still be high but not that bad.

GGaskill · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2009, 03:58:38 PM »

Didn't meet any live steam builders when I was in the MTT classes. But I always took night classes.

I thought the locomotove in the picture was a Challenger (4-6-6-4) but it is hard to tell from that angle.

I would like to have a Uintah 2-6-6-2 scaled to 7.5" gauge.

cannonmn · « **Reply #25 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »

Here is some inspiration for blackpowder model railway cannon builders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_oDdGmKyA&feature=player_embedded#

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2009, 01:20:00 AM »

I wonder if the Czechs, Poles, British, French, et al., feel a lot safer, now that the Germans have discovered this passion for model railroading? Forgive me, Bruno, I know you're a good man.

GG,
The locomotive & tender that Bruno is pictured on, is indeed, the Union Pacific Challenger, and that's also the model he quoted the two prices on.

little seacoast · « **Reply #27 on:** December 22, 2009, 02:30:04 AM »

You're right, it is a Challenger, I was misled by the seperate wheel set shown and poor vision. Got my model Challenger (N scale) out just to check and realized all over again what a huge engine it was.

Double D · « **Reply #28 on:** December 22, 2009, 02:56:15 AM »

Imagine what Bruno could do if he built cannons.

dan610324 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 22, 2009, 08:24:18 AM »

a man with that interest for details would probably not be challenged enough with a pre 99 cannon
except maybe for some of the seacoast cannons , but they are already manufactured again as scaled down exact miniatures of a pair of guys who it will be really difficult to beat when it comes to quality