Author Topic: more mid-east balance (Read 1671 times)

rio grande · « **on:** December 15, 2009, 08:17:12 AM »

Seems to me a whole lot of similarity between Muslim fundamentalists and Jewish Hasidic fundamentalists.

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/12/10/new-york-city-erases-bike-lands-to-appease-hasidic-men-who-object-to-seeing-women-in-bike-shorts/

What's with these guys? They are so out of control they can't trust themselves to see a woman's bare leg?

Redtail1949 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 15, 2009, 08:24:39 AM »

to me it is an example of religious extremism. however it will only cause much debate as to how much is too much. i think they should mind their business and leave the others alone. if they can not stand to see it do not go there go somewhere else. it is a case of forcing their beliefs on others..i am against that.

rio grande · « **Reply #2 on:** December 15, 2009, 08:41:17 AM »

Quote from: Redtail1949 on December 15, 2009, 08:24:39 AM

to me it is an example of religious extremism. however it will only cause much debate as to how much is too much. i think they should mind their business and leave the others alone. if they can not stand to see it do not go there go somewhere else. it is a case of forcing their beliefs on others..i am against that.

Me too. I'll help 'em pack up all those woman-hating junk ideas they have so they can take them along when they return to whatever place they came from.

gypsyman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2009, 08:42:05 AM »

No different than seeing 2 homosexuals making out on tv or in the movies. I don't like that, so I don't watch the movie, or change the channel. They can either look the other way, or move back to Isreal. gypsyman

teamnelson · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2009, 09:46:05 AM »

I concur with the sentiments expressed here, but something we need to remember is that the Hasidic faith is the oldest form of Judaism in Israel, as such its not so much that they've moved into the more modernized areas of the country, but that secular Israel is taking over traditional Israel to where the parks where Hasidics once felt comfortable going to are now full of secular Israelis in inappropriate attire ... to them.

At what point then does the more conservative have the right to say stop pushing your morals on me? Do you just keep switching channels until you can't watch TV at all? Do you stop going places until you can't leave your home? Is it right that the more conservative among us will eventually not be able to participate in the community? Is that not the same thing as accusing the Hasidics of trying to force their values on women bikers? Somebody has to draw a line between them and acknowledge that the Hasidic has as much of right to be able to walk a park without having his beliefs assaulted as much as the

torpedoman · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2009, 01:15:35 PM »

Somebody has to draw a line between them and acknowledge that the Hasidic has as much of right to be able to walk a park without having his beliefs assaulted as much as the
[/quote]

NO his rights end when they interfere with the rights of others! Don't like the view look the other way, don't like what is normal to others move to a commune were everyone thinks the same way. Your logic is what give the very small minority of atheists the power to shut down Christmas displays and has people afraid to use the phrase "Merry Christmas" I'm real tired of this P.C. crap people should be told we don't care if you choose not to believe that's your business but the majority does believe so get over it.

teamnelson · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2009, 05:43:16 PM »

Tman, you completely missed my point.

Is it only the girl on the bike who has the right to her opinion?

rio grande · « **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2009, 08:24:05 PM »

It's another one of those cultural things I guess.

And that IS the point for me, that some cultures, like the Hasidics and Moslem, men are so insecure in their manhood that bare-legged women SCARE them? The sight of bare skin may drive them to uncontrollable lust? Or just gives them 'impure' thoughts?
Are women considered 'unclean' in the Muslim and Hasidic Jew mind?

And yes, I am purposely pointing out the similarities between Muslim and Jew.

European people, and that includes Whites in America, just don't think the same way.

teamnelson · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2009, 05:19:09 AM »

Let's say you live in a traditional Christian smalltown, nice family place, been that way for years. In an effort to stimulate the local economy the city council gets a high tech design company to move offices to your town. Now on Sundays at the church picnic in the park your children can enjoy watching gay couples hold hands, kiss as they enjoy a picnic in the park too. Do you give the park up to them and stop the traditional church picnic?

To the Hasidum, the bike lanes are the same as telling me I can't say Merry Christmas. You may not understand it, but calling them insecure is no different than calling me bigoted for celebrating Christmas.

teamnelson · « **Reply #9 on:** December 16, 2009, 07:54:48 AM »

TM7, so your opinion on this case is biased by your larger understanding of issues surrounding Hassidum? At least you're honest.

My point is, has, and always shall be ... admit your flipping bias folks. This is just another example of one person's liberties being encroached by another person seeking to excercise their liberties. You don't like one, but you like the other so you side with them. But admit your bias ... don't pretend you're really for equal liberty to all.

I consider it an encroachment on MY liberties that every day there is one less place I can go, one less channel I can watch, one less restraunt I can eat in, or one less beach I can swim at because SOMEONE ELSE'S liberties are deemed more worthy of protection than my own. I guess only those who engage in lewd, lascivious, and immoral behavior have rights, and I'm expected to just put up with, change the channel, stay in my home, and keep my mouth shut. If that's your country, then keep it - I won't shed another drop of blood for it.

alsaqr · « **Reply #10 on:** December 16, 2009, 11:08:49 AM »

Remember the big media hullabaloo about Catholic priests molesting kids. The dirty little secret is that the Jewish faith has the same problem but the politically correct US media refuses to talk about that.

Child rape and molestation by rabbis is pretty common.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99913807

http://current.com/items/90070803_long-list-of-jewish-child-molestor-rabbis-gets-no-media-coverage.htm

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Case of Rabbi (Alan J.) Shneur Horowitz (Convicted and sentenced to 10 - 20 years in prison for sodomizing a nine-year-old psychiatric patient. Allegedly, he has assaulted a string of children from California to Israel to New York in the past twenty years.

Alan J. Horowitz is an Orthodox rabbi, magna cum laude, M.D., Ph.D. A graduate of Duke University, and was a writer for NAMBLA

steve y · « **Reply #11 on:** December 16, 2009, 02:53:38 PM »

I will say for myself that I am biased against things that I see are changing our country for the worse. It saddens me a great deal to see such disgusting crimes commited against our children and grandchildren. I never heard about a child molestor being in my town till I was a young adult. You never really heard about it. My mom always said don't ever get into a car with strangers. Of course I knew why she said it because there are bad people out there. As for the priests and rabbis et al wherever there are children so there will be molestors. I don't know much about Hasidic Jews but I do know that islam is not doing this country any good at all. I want my grandkids to grow up like I did. I had a great childhood with so many great memories that I wish for them to have as good of a life as I did.

teamnelson · « **Reply #12 on:** December 16, 2009, 03:24:48 PM »

TM7, I'm not pro- Judaeo anything or anti-Muslim for that matter. That you can't figure me out is clear. I chose sides a long time ago and this whole thread has little to do with it. I think the balance I read here is equal enmnity against anyone we don't understand. I have devoted over half of my life to understanding Islam, Arabs and tribalism ... doesn't mean anything more than I know alot about them.

As others have said, I have no problem with like minded folks forming their own communities and nations and making rules for that community. I don't think it's the governments role to impose diversity at the cost of community values. In as much as you'd tell a Jew not to look at the women in shorts, tell the women in shorts not to ride through the boroughs. The city encroached the boroughs with the bike lanes if you read your history. They were happy in their community left alone. How'd you like it if the city forced something into your neighborhood that violated the values of your community? A mosque? A gay cabaret? A canabis park?

teamnelson · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2009, 12:00:33 PM »

I haven't found anything in any of the articles that stated the complaint was solely against Hassidic women. I'd appreciate a reference to that because all I've found is that they didn't want women bicyclists in shorts period, goyim or otherwise.

My comparison was to try to appeal to the cultural markers of those participating in this thread. The Hassidum in the boroughs pre-date the creation of bike lanes. Another poster here implied that they came in and started changing things, while the reverse is true. That the city government heard them should be right along with what folks here seem to think is the role of government, after all, wasn't their a discussion here about building a Mosque in your neighborhood, and complaining to the city about it? How can you tell the Hassidum to suck it up, but then complain about a Mosque?

I appear to be the only one here that sees this as an example of the conflict of personal liberties. If you believe that the Hassidum have no right to practice the dictates of their faith as best they can within our society, then that makes sense. What happens when society determines YOU have no right to practice the dictates of YOUR faith ... like saying Merry Christmas or being opposed to gay marriage? We live in a pluralistic society, last I checked.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 18, 2009, 01:50:38 AM »

HMMM, the Jews in this story complain about something that does not fit in their way of life. And the muslim animals send out the religious police on an issue like this and the women are beaten ,stoned or beheaded. No comparison what so ever.

You antisemites sure can reach.

WOW! The Third Reich still lives I guess.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 18, 2009, 03:59:09 AM »

I guess I can't see what someone voicing there concerns and beliefs on something has in common with someone forcing their beliefs on another. I guess I don't have the hatred of the Jews within me to make such a reaching conclusion.

beerbelly · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:36:28 AM »

I don't see a hell of a lot of difference in the Israelis and the Muslims. I say we should get out of it and let them fight. I could care less who wins.
beerbelly

teamnelson · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2009, 06:32:17 AM »

Isn't this a case of democracy in action? A group of citizens successfully lobbied their municipal government resulting in a decision in their favor? Is that not what they are supposed to do? Participate in the democratic process? Isn't that how all such decisions are made? It couldve been a zoning issue, or smoking ban, or school integration and you'd have been okay with that. If you don't like the result, lobby harder, right? Because that's what democracy is all about.

rio grande · « **Reply #18 on:** December 19, 2009, 03:27:05 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on December 17, 2009, 12:00:33 PM

I haven't found anything in any of the articles that stated the complaint was solely against Hassidic women. I'd appreciate a reference to that because all I've found is that they didn't want women bicyclists in shorts period, goyim or otherwise.

My comparison was to try to appeal to the cultural markers of those participating in this thread. The Hassidum in the boroughs pre-date the creation of bike lanes. Another poster here implied that they came in and started changing things, while the reverse is true. That the city government heard them should be right along with what folks here seem to think is the role of government, after all, wasn't their a discussion here about building a Mosque in your neighborhood, and complaining to the city about it? How can you tell the Hassidum to suck it up, but then complain about a Mosque?

I appear to be the only one here that sees this as an example of the conflict of personal liberties. If you believe that the Hassidum have no right to practice the dictates of their faith as best they can within our society, then that makes sense. What happens when society determines YOU have no right to practice the dictates of YOUR faith ... like saying Merry Christmas or being opposed to gay marriage? We live in a pluralistic society, last I checked.

It's not about the letter of the law, who was there first, bike lanes, mosques, or even 1st amendment issues.
It's about attitudes toward women, mid-eastern male insecurity and 'cultural' similarity between fundamentalist Jews and Muslims.

ironglow · « **Reply #19 on:** December 19, 2009, 04:30:09 AM »

While there are reasonable arguments on both sides, I believe TN has the more balanced view. The Hassidic requests seem a bit out of line to the recently moved in "arts & croussants" enclave. Some speak of "precedence", saying the bicycle race is a very old event and should be given precedence, and allowed to mark out a new route through this traditionally Hassidic neighborhood. If precedence is the determining factor, it seems the ethnic makeup of this particular neighborhood may be even older than the bicycle race.
On the face of it, many would consider the REQUESTS of the conservative Jewish community to be unreasonable, but as TN pointed out..it is clearly a matter of relative values....allow me to give an example..
If I am informed correctly, San Francisco has public parks where gays openly cavort..and apparently the local residents have no complaints. That is FAR FROM the case in my neighborhood, and it is likely true in many of yours. So, let's consider that a public park near you..in full view of your children, suddenly is infested by gays coming in from other places and "doing their thing" !
Would you complain ? Would you make a fuss ? After all, some do not mind such activity around their children...

If the bike race had gone through the neighborhood for decades, it may well be a different case, but according to the article it appears some citizens took it upon themselves to paint new bike lanes on the pavement. If Joe Blow down the street decides to paint (not chalk), huge halloween pumpkin faces upon the highway in front of our house..do we have any basis to complain ? If they were not authorized by the D.O.T...bike lines are no more legal than pumpkin faces.
There seems to be no indication that the Jews involved did any threatening, so if anybody doesn't like the decision, they should take it up with mayor Bloomberg.
Sometimes we simply do things out of respect for our neighbor's values. I live in a rural area; an area where there are many Amish. When I drive down a rural road at 55 mph, I have a right to keep that speed up, according to the posted limit. However, when I come upon an Amish buggy..especially from the rear, I slow noticeably and allow more than usual room. There arer many other "allowances" made for the Amish in this area..doesn't hurt us..just simple respect for the people's values.
I may be mistaken, but It would seem that by re-routing the bike races/paths to purposely go through that neighborhood, is just an in-your-face gesture.

I would not get overly wrought at the Hassidic copmmunity in this case....unless they started "stupidcide bombing" the bicycle races.
If that started to occur, unlike some others, I would roundly condemn any stupidcude bombers and their fellow conspirators.

teamnelson · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2009, 07:17:29 AM »

TM7, i'm still missing something here. They wanted the lanes routed aoutside their community, as tman suggested they grouped together. According to the articles the community is much older than the lanes, so it was an imposition into their community. They've not asked the entire city to change, or women at large to change. They're not seeking to convert the city and they've injured no one and used no force. They engaged in the appropriate process of their municipal government. Sounds like you have an issue with the city then for granting their request.

I had thought you understood my view on Israel, and yet if I support due process I'm a Zionist?!? I have to support the legal actions of citizens even when I suffer for it. Did they do something illegal?

As for Muslims, if they approach similar issues in my neighborhood with similar results, I lose, yes? Would they have not used the system? Are you suggesting the system is only for those we like and not for anyone else? Isn't that the risk of mob rule ... I mean democracy? Do you know your Roman history?

RG, I would not support forcing a thousands year old religion to adopt modern feminism. Jesus did not do away with Old Testament, he brought clarity to it. We mightdo better to understand what THAT means rather than treat faith as a changing set of values.

ironglow · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2009, 08:38:08 AM »

NY is a big city, with many streets..can they not have enough bike lanes without intentionally harassing a peaceful community ?
....But then of course, we must remind ourselves that in the bike/artist community we are dealing with such a mature, intelligent & sessible group. Some of those very liberals we so often hear complain about other folks who are not "sensitive' enough to their needs, women's needs, minority rights or artistic license.
These folks are so very sensitive to other's needs right " Yeah; right ! Here's a video demonstrating just how intelligent, reasonable and "sensitive" these creeps are.. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/12/bedford_bike_lane_battle_takes.html

billy_56081 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2009, 08:51:33 AM »

It's so wierd how someone can be so blinded by antisemetic hatred that they equate some community action by some Jewish folks to keep a bike path out of their neighborhood to suicide bombing, whippings, stonings, and beatings to keep people subjegated under the tyranical yoke of islam. Please could some of the hate bunch try to explain how these things are even romotley similar?

I am starting to see how the Nazi's got as far as they did with the unsupported pure hatred I see here. The sickness that was in Germany in the 30's and 40's in Germany is still alive from what I see here.

teamnelson · « **Reply #23 on:** December 19, 2009, 09:13:50 AM »

Nude protest ... hmm so the hate isn't one sided after all. If the Jews retaliate by performing involuntary circumcision then maybe you can compare them to Muslim fundamentalists. My guess is they'll stay indoors and call the police ... like they're supposed to right?

Oh I know, let's pack the Jews on trains and relocate them somewhere so they won't interfere with our right to bike anywhere we please in whichever clothes or lack thereof we please. Let's remove anyone who disagrees with us. Didn't we build them a place to live so they wouldn't be underfoot?

ms · « **Reply #24 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:15:49 PM »

What a joke is this the same group that was buying hookers in Israel?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:34:14 PM »

I still cannot see how someone can have such virulent antisemetic hatred, that they can compare someone complaining to muslim animals killing and subjegating. I for one don't think one religious/ethnic group has the right to stop a bike lane through a neighborhood, but I am not so blinded by hatred to say , they have no right to complain and lobby against it. Now these accusations of wrong doing, are completley unfounded and like most stuff our resident antisemites spew, false. There have been no reports of the behavior that could be coroberated.

BTW TM, I think you are looking for the term Hasbara, not Hasbarat. Your hate terms are kind of confusing, better polish them up at the NeoNazi websight.

So how long should we shedule your comedy act at the BBQ?

alsaqr · « **Reply #26 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:54:00 PM »

Yep, all us of who complain about some wacko Hasidic Jews must certainly be anti-semitic. Darn, I forgot that my maternal grandfather was named Armentrout and he belonged to the Maccabees.

On the subject of circumcision some circumcision rabbis have given their young charges Herpes. If a preacher from another religion did this he would go to jail forever.

http://www.cirp.org/news/journalnews02-03-05/

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2005/02/03/2005-02-03_circumcision_rite_poses__inh.html

Quote

Fischer practices a ritual used mostly among ultra-Orthodox Jews called metzizah bi peh, in which the person performing the circumcision draws blood from the wound using his mouth.

teamnelson · « **Reply #27 on:** December 19, 2009, 02:58:12 PM »

TM7, very well then. It still sounds like a vocal and powerful minority successfully petitioned their civic leaders and won. The nude protest is childish and proves my point ... that's an intentionally hateful thing to target the Hassidum. Like feeding Muslim prisoners ham. Is the anti-defamation league crying hate speech?

To quote a line from the I Ching of the Marine Corps, "... all are equally worthless in my eyes." No religion is without fault, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Atheism ... pedophiles, perverts and sociopaths have come from all of them, and even held positions of leadership. That's why I put more stock in people than the labels we give them.

I am concerned that the immoral politically correct movement in America is forcing many of us into virtual concentration camps. Don't tell me to change the channel or stay inside or look the other way. I have a voice, a natural right and an earned right to participation in my community. And I will go down swinging ... not hiding in my home with the curtains drawn in fear.

ironglow · « **Reply #28 on:** December 20, 2009, 01:06:41 AM »

Just a couple observations;
1) The hipster community would be unwelcome in my neighborhood also, not that I could legally stop them..but for the same reason I would not try to take my Christian/conservative values into their neighborhood and expect them to accept my values.

2) These same hipster/artist types who cry bloody murder that this Jewish community would band together in comunity activism to retain the flavor of their community...are the same phonies who just elected a fellow phony to the highest office, a man whose claim to fame for most of his life (other than 162 days in senate) was his years as a "community organizer"..organizing this very kind of activism.

3) TM charges; The residents stopped people from painting bike path lines on the streets. Were the line painters doing something illegal in the neighjborhood ? Sure looks like it, since the D.O.T. had just sandblasted the lines away.

4) TM says; They stopped bikers from using the now non-existant bike lanes. Again, who was breaking the law ?

5) TM says the Jews want to run their neighborhood as the Israelis run Gaza.
Hmmm..until a couple years ago, the Israelis did run Gaza and things were comparatively quiet there. Now, at the urging of the US and UN, they no longer "run Gaza". So, answer your own question..Is Gaza more peaceful, sanguine and industrious than it was under Israeli rule ?

6) TM says Hassidic Jews once hanged an "effigy" of a black male. While I am not in favor of hanging anybody in effigy, that is not nearly as hazardous to one's health as being surrounded by a dozen or so youths and beaten & stabbed to death..as Mr. Rosenbaum was.
If you are going to cite a situation as backup for your argument, at least be circumspect enough to post the whole story for all to see. You really should have also said the "effigy" incident was part of a riot and murder going on in said Jewish community. It looks like there was more than one person not thinking rationally during the "Crown Heights Riot", posted here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot

Alsaqr; The fact of ethnic heritage does not prove any kind of special allegiance to ANY ethnic group; how many first generation Americans of either German or Japanese heritage fought courageously AGAINST the country of their ethnic origin....a poor argument at best.

teamnelson · « **Reply #29 on:** December 20, 2009, 09:14:12 AM »

TM7, Im resonating with some of your general statements, but when you specifically apply them to this case I can't follow. The Hassidum here participated in the system per the rules of the system. The bikers showed disdain when they tried to repaint lines the city removed. It's a shame you weren't there to petition the city as you make some compelling arguments for the lanes. But democracy was used here.

Loonwatch is interesting, although I think constantly asking, what if they were Muslim? Is baiting an audience they presume to be islamophobic. I'm stupidophobic.

All, anti-Semitic comes from Shem, son of Noah, and progenitor of Jews and Arabs alike. Some seem to use it only for Jews.