Author Topic: MY DAUGHTER  (Read 1870 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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MY DAUGHTER
« on: December 15, 2009, 09:58:49 PM »
I apologize for moving this conversation around--but it was quickly getting off topic for the .45 thread.
My daughter seems to have come to her senses--she is so liberal, but that's another discussion.
She is talking to a friend at the school she works at as a counselor.
he is a police officer in the Pasadena ISD Police department.
He just got his wife a Taurus Judge and reccommended such for my daughter.
Now I am not a big taurus fan--and, I like better weapons.
Now what in a .410/.45 LC, let's keep it to a 3" barrel. would you guys look at.
I have talked to some friends of mine and they think this as agood choice and that she can manage the recoil.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mikey

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 01:50:19 AM »
William - I think this is the perfect chance for your daughter and her husband to become familiar with handguns.  As you know, the one thing you DO NOT want is to have your daughter come away from her first session the same way many younger daughters/sisters used to come away from their first session out with Dad and the 12 gauge - sort of like " I will never pick that thing up again, even after my shoulder heals'.  You want her to come away from her first session still interested and wanting to go back for more.

The Judge is a interesting concept but not a handgun for a novice.  45 Colt rounds will add snap and the 410s might be punitive.  Gun Tests magazine ran a test on these guns and I believe the found the recoil to be right up there - someone not too familiar with handguns is definately going to shy away from that sort of thing - and although I usually find LEOs to be helpful and even somewhat parental in their approach to some folk, a Judge wouldn't be too helpful for a novice to get them interested.  I think you can probably check it out on Gun Tests Magazine.com. It is not a matter of managing the recoil, I firmly believe it is a matter of having a novice shooter or a beginning shooter becoming comfortable with handling a handgun, understanding their functioning and becoming comfortable using one.  And, ya hafta keep'm interested..

Years ago I taught many gals how to shoot handguns.  I never taught them to hit 'man-targets' or to shoot at police targets.  Most all our targets were reactionary - cans, balloons, ice cubes hanging from strings, challenging but fun sort of stuff.  I always hung the really small targets in front of a large paper target so even if someone didn't hit the smaller target they could see how they shot by the hits on the larger target in the background - that often helped folk who yanked the trigger see the effect. 

I have always felt that a gal who can skip cans with a 22 pocket rocket is more comfortable with shooting and more capable of defending herself that someone who misses with a 45.  And I believe the Judge is not a great one for grouping the shot pattern from a 410 - the 410 is minimally effective at nominal shotgun distances and the pattern opens significantly from the shorter Judge's barrel.  Check it out at Gun Tests, so you can show your daughter some 'independent' findings so you can discuss the issue on a more equitable (as in non-parental) basis.

Definately have her attend a class - it takes the teaching aspect right out of your hands and puts it into the hands of professionals who do this regularly (which means they may have more 'people' skills than most fathers)(have with their children).  Fathers should not teach their daughters to drive or shoot - it is much too tense........ and once in the hands of professionals and in the company of others who show a similar interest, beginning shooters are much more likely to be open to suggestion and advice. 

Now, once she comes back from her classes and begins to ask Dear Ol Dad about some of the things she has heard, seen or been taught, then you can chime in with your fatherly advice and show her some of your choices - don't go too far or too fast; this is sort of like a first date with a very skittish girl and you may have to deal with the situation 'softly' to get her interested. 

Ya know William, 38 Supers are very easy to shoot on the 1911 frame, so are 9mms (early caveat....) but I think the Judge isn't a handgun for a novice although a nice snubnosed or used Police revolver might interest her after she has heard and seen more. 

Think 'Fun' shooting first, and defensive thoughts will come along by themselves.  JMTCW and hope it helps. 

Offline williamlayton

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 02:08:07 AM »
I appreciate that thought Mikey---I got a few Supers for her to try out.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Autorim

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 02:20:07 AM »
Personally, I like to always start new firearms shooters with a .22 revolver. My grandon started when he was 3 by resting on a rabbit ear bag on top of one of my camera tripods. This past Thanksgiving he was busting liter jugs of water with the .22 Hornet at about 70 yards.

Ken

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 02:47:33 AM »
I have a couple friends with "the judge".  For practice they use 410 field loads, at 3-10 yrds it gives an impresive pattern.  For carry they use #4 buck.  There are many varients of the Taurus Judge , 2 3/4 as well as 3" .410 shell I believe.  Also blue, Stainles, and with gold trim.  Hope this was helpful, rawhidekid   8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Brett

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2009, 03:40:28 AM »
I think that the 'Judge" has some merits.   Shooting light 'cowboy' loads should be pretty comfortable for even a novice to learn and practice with. I doubt anyone would argue the effectiveness of full power .45lc rounds with appropriate bullets.  In an arms length self defense scenario I would not want to be looking at the business end of a Judge loaded with .410 shells of any kind let alone #4 buck either.     
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Offline John R.

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2009, 04:49:44 AM »
In the tests done on theboxotruth.com the the "Judge" with 410 shells of any description did not fare very well in penetration tests. The general concensus was it was a fine snake gun at close range, but not impressive at all as a self-defense gun. Your milage may vary.

Offline Brett

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2009, 04:56:50 AM »
In the tests done on theboxotruth.com the the "Judge" with 410 shells of any description did not fare very well in penetration tests.

This may be true but I'm betting that a face full of bird shot at point blank range will take the fight out of 98% of would be attackers.  Shoot a good percentage of them would turn tail and run when they get a look at the .45 caliber hole in the muzzle of that thing.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 06:01:19 AM »
I have a blued German PPK---beautiful little piece which has never been fired--that i got at the same time I got the stainless PPK, about 35 years ago. I have been wanting to give her this one,
I am in agreement that the .410 Taurus is heavy and the recoil may scare her---not that she could not learn to handle it--just that i don't want to run her off.
I am going too let her shoot the K22 at first and then move her up too the PPK.
If she can handle the fear orof the explosion pretty well and doesn't back off---then i may get the .410 and let her try that out.
My thought is that in a panic the .410 at close range would be good.
we will play it by ear--one step at a time.
First let her shoot the K22.
Then the PPK, later
the handgun safety course at the range
Finally we can experiment with finding what she wants.
How does that sound, for a program, boys?
Blessings

TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Brett

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2009, 06:18:20 AM »
Sounds like a winner to me.  After she has learned the basics and has some shooting time with the K22 and PPK let her try as many different guns as she can get her hands on at the range and let her decide what she want's.

I have a daughter also.  If she thinks something is my idea or my choice there is a good chance she will fight it, but if she thinks it's her idea or choice then there is no problem.  Let her shoot the PPK just to "try something different than the K22" but do not tell her that you think it is a good gun for her or that you want her to have it.  If after shooting it she says that she likes it then you have a green light.

Good luck.
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Offline John R.

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2009, 06:19:18 AM »
Williamlayton, that sounds like a great plan. I always like to start women and/or novice shooters out with small caliber double-action revolvers and move up. I agree that a face full of birdshot would not feel good, but what if we are talking about more than one attacker. The odds of you shooting both of them in the head is pretty small. The Judge is also a pretty hefty pistol, not a purse gun, especially with 3" chambers. I like the various J-frame Smiths in 38 spl. for the ladies

Offline Brett

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2009, 06:43:00 AM »
Williamlayton, that sounds like a great plan. I always like to start women and/or novice shooters out with small caliber double-action revolvers and move up. I agree that a face full of birdshot would not feel good, but what if we are talking about more than one attacker. The odds of you shooting both of them in the head is pretty small. The Judge is also a pretty hefty pistol, not a purse gun, especially with 3" chambers. I like the various J-frame Smiths in 38 spl. for the ladies

Have to agree with your assessment of the Judge... too heavy too bulky for easy CCW.  I think if William's daughter has the opportunity to try other guns such as a J-frame (a personal favorite of mine by the way) her thinking would probably move away from the Judge.  But again, whether we are talking about a wife daughter or girlfriend the final decision should be left to them or that gun will end up residing in the underware drawer.     
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Offline John R.

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2009, 08:06:28 AM »
Brett, I agree, if they won't carry it (for whatever reason) it does them no good. I can just about guarentee they won't want to carry the "Judge" around in a purse. Possibly a vehicle gun.

Offline John R.

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2009, 08:25:43 AM »
By the way, my daughter turned 12 on Dec. 15th. I gave her a model 34 j-frame 22lr, complete with action job and pink Houge grip. She loves it! :)

Offline Robert357

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2009, 04:53:36 AM »
Personally, I like to always start new firearms shooters with a .22 revolver.

I have gone a step further in introducing handguns to my sons and nieces.  What I do is load the revolver with 22 Short CB rounds.  They are expensive but really worth it.  They have almost no recoil and almost no noise.  That makes them the perfrect intro.  I then move up to 22 Longs then at another session 22 LR's.   Finally, at another session after they are comfortable with 22 LR's, I change the cylinder to 22 WRM's.   Then end the day with some hand loaded, (mim load) 38 specials in a full sized revolver.  That brings them up to a comfort level that gradually progresses up in recoil and noise.

You wouldn't believe the number of times, I have heard "can we go back to shooting the 22 Shorts," or "can I start out shooting the 22 shorts again?"

Offline J. Plate

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2009, 07:25:45 AM »
http://www.taurususa.com/videos.cfm

Watch the movies on the Judge pistol, and then make your decision about its power.   You'll be able to see recoil and the power of the different loads.    It's not meant to be a long range or even a medium range pistol.  And remember, nationally, the average distance of a shot in a self defense situation is just 9 feet.     If someone is coming at you, or carjacking you.....   The Judge is going to put a hurting on them....seriously.   

I like the advice given here though.   For a brand new shooter, start with a .22 and move her up to something manageable, like a 9mm.   A 9mm compact, like a M&P9c might be just the thing.   Light recoil, small grip.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2009, 08:18:40 AM »
Sir William, sounds like you got the right plan! The PPK is a great idea for a woman's carry gun, all the more special that you've held onto it for so long. I don't know too many people who having actually fired the Judge with full house .45 and .410 have said that was a pleasant experience. For an SD gun I want something my girls can comfortably continue to pull the trigger on with accuracy.
held fast

Offline buckeye509

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2009, 08:57:08 AM »
I like the similar train of thought here, so here's my $.02. I go with starting out training with a good .22, revolver or autoloader. Once the student is comfortable with that and has a grasp on the fundamentals of marksmanship and safe gun handling, then move it up a notch to a .32, .380 or .38 special. The idea is to gain a high degree of comfort (mental and physical) with the weapon and not be intimidated by the noise, flash and recoil. Training on when to use, and when not to use, as legalities are an ever present nuisance. You may find the student, as did my daughter (and all of us), have a preference for either revolvers or autoloaders. My daughter likes a S&W 686 for target shooting, and doesn't like the Glock 19. So for her a personal defense weapon will most likely be a 38 snub nose. I've used S&W Model 60's, Walther TPH, Walther PPK (SS), the original Grendel .380 as back up guns. I've never shot a Taurus Judge, but would consider it's practicality more as a house gun than one for concealed carry. As for my feeling when it's all over and the smoke clears, the questions start, there will be only one version of the event, mine.

Offline guzzijohn

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2009, 10:14:25 AM »
I introduced my step-daughter to handguns when she was 22 and showed interest. Started her with a Ruger MkII pistol, then a Blackhawk in .38 special and then to .357s. Although the weight and recoil of the Blackhawk tire her quickly she loves it and shoots well for no more experience than she has (with the .22 she can put 10 shots in 3 inches at 50 ft. with a two handed hold). She is not a bit intimidated by the .357 and thinks it's a hoot to shoot.
GuzziJohn

Offline Jim47

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2009, 07:53:44 AM »
My daughter has a .357 Lady Smith and a 9mm  something, not sure what. She handles the .357 well but I think the recoil is pretty hard, small grips and all.

She is however not gun shy at all. I raised her well   ;D

but for a lady who is not familiar at all I agree starting her on .22 is a great way to go, in fact a .22 is a great self defence weapon in my eyes. If the shots are placed anywhere good the bad guy will be disabled, and the recoil is not offensive to almost any lady.  But I think you already have agood plan laid out.

Offline mechanic

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2009, 08:00:26 AM »
I started my wife with the 22, then moved up to 380, then 38 spec.  I believe that is as good as it gets with her, the 357 scares her and gets her to flinching.  On the other hand, my oldest daughter will shoot anything I hand her capably.

Different strokes for different.....

Take your daughter to the range, start with something light and fun, and work up from there.

I agree with above posts the Judge may be a bit much at first.  Even with light loads it's imposing, with recoil equal to my Blackhawk 44 mag.  I enjoy shooting it, but I wouldn't start someone out with it.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline wyohandi

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2010, 12:34:08 PM »
My oldest daughter is 14, started her out with a 22, went to a 38
then a 1911 45acp (which I will Probably never see again)
She liked them all, loved the 45. The other day she wanted to try out
my LCP 380, shot it once declared that was more than enough and
grabbed HER 45 (shooting 230gr @850fps) and shot up a whole box.
(I have friends that say a 45 kicks too much ::))
So I have to guess, fit, and familiarity have a lot to do with it.
Let her shoot them all and decide what she likes.

Offline MePlat

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2010, 01:10:10 PM »
I have a Bond Derringer in 45/410 and recoil is not bad in it.  The much heavier Judge will be no problem unless she has some kind of injury to her wrists etc. or she is frail..
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Offline Hodr

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2010, 02:39:49 PM »
T o Sweet WilliamLayton,

Years ago in Berlin I was an armorer firing in M-60 machinegun on Army range.  Op Art in geometric pattern was all the rage.  Lovely lady, long haired brunette, drop dead gorgeous and dressed in black and white checked pantsuit signed onto next firing line.  Range master shuts us down and she sets target 6" black bull at 25 meters.  Range hot she takes out Walther ppk in 380 and about 30 mags out of her shoulder bag. One arm side stance left hand and she starts sending rounds down range.  They are in the black through two magazines.  She also made the magazine switch with one in the chamber.  Then she takes out the second ppk from her bag and does it right hand.  By this time I am in love.  She then pulls the third one out of her bra, Yes she had room to hide it ( I told you I was in love) and this one goes from combat stance through  2 more mags.  Range master closes firing line and we go down to look.  14 flyers on target, if you can call them that at that range, otherwise just a tore up bull.  She talked to our gun crews and then went back tucked away her toys and did it again.  Range master told us she was CID and always came down while they closed the range.  A ppk in the hands of that lady probably would have taken out a M-60 crew if they were engaged within 50' and she got the first shot.  I have kept a ppk like you do to teach small framed men and women to shoot.  Good luck with your daughter, just teach her not to let the slide slice her hand and not to stop firing until empty until she can count shells and switch mags without looking. 

best of luck,

blindhari
TANSTAAFL

Offline Bullshop Junior

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 08:47:48 PM »
My dad has a Bond arms 45/410 and with 3" 410 I can shoot it with one hand. (Now full bore 454s are another story)

My dad had a Raging bull in 480 for a time, and it was very nice gun. I liked it a lot, and it shot quite well.

If you daughter is not real small built she should be able to handle it.
"Never argue with some one dumber then you" - Mark Twain

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Offline handi270

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Re: MY DAUGHTER
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 12:44:56 PM »
I am seriously consider the "Judge" so your question is of interest.
Some use the 2 1/2 shell only and some use both 2 1/2 and three.
There is the light weight version also.

Another consideration is Winchesters new 410 personal protection ammo.
3 Discs and 3 Balls. In 3 inch shells. Granted not much for distance accuracy, but up close should be effective.

I started my daughter (then 12 years old) and my wife on my 357 maximum Thompson Contender.
No problem for them, but I realize not everyone would like that.

As a house or vehical gun I think it would be fine, as a carry gun for a woman, doubtful.