Author Topic: Pondering a 6.5 round in my TC Contender (Read 4779 times)

Silvertp · « **on:** December 16, 2009, 02:59:38 PM »

Thought is to put together a short / light carbine for deer size critters out to 250 yards. Leaning toward a 18" bbl and the 6.5 jdj.

Then I got to thinking...folks really like the 7 - 30 Waters. Has anyone tried a 6.5 - 30

Im guessing it would be a safe chambering for the contender (maybe not). Should move a 120 gr. down the road nicely. Don't really want to get into having dies made so that may dictate the jdj round.

What have you got in 6.5 in your Contenders and do they take deer to 250 yards?

Silvertp

David D. · « **Reply #1 on:** December 16, 2009, 03:48:19 PM »

Most custom barrel builders offer the 6.5X30-30 and also the 6.5X30-30IMP. The 6.5JDJ is an excellent choice. I have and shoot a Tender pistol 14"SSK6.5JDJ and it works well for deer. I also have a 20" OTT 6.5X225IMP (AKA 6.5JDJ) that is excellent for deer. I use the same dies to load both the OTT cant be designated JDJ.

I have heard good things about the 6.5X30-30IMP. 30-30 brass is cheaper and easier to find than the 225Win brass. The 225 brass is thicker and stronger than 30-30 brass.

Drugstore Cowboy · « **Reply #2 on:** December 16, 2009, 04:55:23 PM »

I wanted a light carry gun with an exposed trigger. Purchased a G2 frame and had MGM make me a 30/40 Krag barrel, it shoots wonderfully. You may want to think about a 30/40 barrel or a 6.5x30/40. I have no knowledge about 6.5x30/40 pressures.

shvlhead.45 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 16, 2009, 05:08:56 PM »

DC,

I learned about the Bullberry wildcat rounds based on the .30-30 Winchester case from reading about a forum member on a hog hunting forum I go read. The Bullberry wildcats are in 6mm and 6mm Improved, .25 and .25 Improved, 6.5 and 6.5 Improved, and finally the 7mm and Improved versions. This guy was killing south central Texas hogs out to 300+ yards with a contender carbine in the 6.5 and 7 mm improved with one shot, dropped in their tracks in accordance to the shooter. I have never used or seen these used but thought that they may be something that meets the intent of your post.

Here is a link to more information: http://www.bullberry.com/data.html

Shvlhead.45

David D. · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2009, 02:37:35 AM »

MGM also offers the 6.5X30-30 and the improved version also. If I were to get one I would get the IMP version. Its going to have a little more M.V. especially in rifle length barrels.

Another option would be the SSK 6.5JDJ#2. This round is made from a 307 case. Some day I will have this one.

Ladobe · « **Reply #5 on:** December 18, 2009, 03:31:30 AM »

Quote from: David D. on December 17, 2009, 02:37:35 AM

Another option would be the SSK 6.5JDJ#2. This round is made from a 307 case. Some day I will have this one.

Since a 6.5 Super Bower is not easily available anymore, the 6.5JDJ#2 is the way I'd go over a 6.5JDJ or 6.5X30-30 something. Instead of the 307 case I'd use the stronger 356 case like I did with my Super Bower's.

skb2706 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2009, 10:35:48 AM »

Quote from: Silvertp on December 16, 2009, 02:59:38 PM

Thought is to put together a short / light carbine for deer size critters out to 250 yards. Leaning toward a 18" bbl and the 6.5 jdj.

Then I got to thinking...folks really like the 7 - 30 Waters. Has anyone tried a 6.5 - 30 Im guessing it would be a safe chambering for the contender (maybe not). Should move a 120 gr. down the road nicely. Don't really want to get into having dies made so that may dictate the jdj round.

What have you got in 6.5 in your Contenders and do they take deer to 250 yards?

Silvertp

With any of them but the Waters you better plan on either expensive dies or expensive dies you have to have made. To be honest I would go the Waters route. Given the max range of a Contender in either chambering you won't give up much and brass is easy to find. In a carbine length barrel I can assure you that even a large mule deer can be taken beyond 250 yds.

David D. · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2009, 12:54:05 PM »

With any of them but the Waters you better plan on either expensive dies or expensive dies you have to have made. To be honest I would go the Waters route. Given the max range of a Contender in either chambering you won't give up much and brass is easy to find. In a carbine length barrel I can assure you that even a large mule deer can be taken beyond 250 yds.
[/quote]

I have dies for the 30-30IMP and the 6.5JDJ. They were not hard to find or overly expensive. And if you shop around you can pick up both used for a reasonable price.

Yes 30-30 brass is ever where you look. The 225 brass can sometimes be hard to locate as I think Win. only makes one run a year. But if you keep an eye out for it you can find it also. SSK probably has the brass and dies for the 6.5JDJ.

Silvertp · « **Reply #8 on:** December 18, 2009, 04:45:22 PM »

I really appreciate all the feedback folks. Honestly, there appears to be a lot of very viable options in the 6.5 caliber / Contender combination. I could probably draw a winner from my hat and be well served. However, I always like to look for any benefits (performance or accuracy) to influence my decisions.

Ive been doing a lot of research since beginning this thread. I still haven't found much regarding the 6.5 JDJ #2 and haven't found any info on a 6.5 based on the 30/40 Krag.

David D and Ladobe...you both mentioned the 6.5 JDJ #2 in a favorable sense. What in particular are the pro's of the #2 vs the 6.5/30 improved? I thought the case capacities were essentially the same. Is it primarily due to the resizing being easier with the smaller case neck? Which of these rounds develops the most horse power?

Ladobe, is the advantage of the 356 case primarily case-strength? Anything else?

Skb, I have no doubt the 7-30 Waters would do everything I am looking for with a lot less headachs. I am a big 7mm fan. At least at this point in time Im really interested in the slightly smaller diameter 6.5. Hoping to pick up essentially the same killing power as a 7 with slightly less recoil.

Silvertp

David D. · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2009, 05:39:13 PM »

I haven't found much info on the 6.5JDJ#2 only that it is based on the 307 case which is basically a 308 with a rim. Case capacity would be a good bit more than a 30-30 or 225Win case which the 6.5JDJ is based on. While the 6.5JDJ is very accurate and a proven round out to 300 yds on deer I myself would like more info on the 6.5JDJ#2. With no experience with the 6.5X30-30IMP myself I have heard very good things about it.

I will email SSK Monday and request load data for the 6.5JDJ#2 to compare with the 6.5JDJ data I have. And also make sure the 6.5JDJ#2 is compatible with the Contender. I would have to think the #2 would be a step up in power but how much I don't know.

Silvertp · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2009, 06:39:16 AM »

David D,

I recently checked with SSK as I was seriously considering their 6.5 mini-dreadnought, and found that it wasn't compatable with the Contender. Their reply also included a recommendation for the 6.5 JDJ. I didn't find any info on their web site re: the 6.5jdj#2 so will be interested in hearing what you find regarding chambering in the tender and loading data / performance.

Silvertp

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2009, 07:59:55 AM »

I just can't imagine anything much nicer than a 6.5JDJ in a short carbine(Contender). I've had the pistol barrel for getting close to 20 years and it just doesn't get any better. I've always thought it would be nice to have the carbine too. Now you guys are going to cost me some money

.
Don't under estimate the power of the little round. Handgun hunting journals are cramed full of stories about how it kills far out of proportion to it's size.
Walt

Ladobe · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Silvertp on December 18, 2009, 04:45:22 PM

David D and Ladobe...you both mentioned the 6.5 JDJ #2 in a favorable sense. What in particular are the pro's of the #2 vs the 6.5/30 improved? I thought the case capacities were essentially the same. Is it primarily due to the resizing being easier with the smaller case neck? Which of these rounds develops the most horse power?

Ladobe, is the advantage of the 356 case primarily case-strength? Anything else?

Skb, I have no doubt the 7-30 Waters would do everything I am looking for with a lot less headachs. I am a big 7mm fan. At least at this point in time Im really interested in the slightly smaller diameter 6.5. Hoping to pick up essentially the same killing power as a 7 with slightly less recoil.

Silvertp

The 6.5 Mini-Dreadnought is based on the 220 Swift case, a no-no on the Contender.

The 6.5JDJ#2 is for the Contender, and is very similar to the 6.5 Super Bower. So I would think at least the starting load data would be interchangeable between them (I have plenty of 6.5SB data). You can push the 307/356 Win brass a lot farther than the 30-30 brass safely, although "horse power" is subjective and IMO not as important as way too many folks think it is. Precision is way more important in my book. If you are a speed freak though, you can push similar weight bullets a lot faster in a 6.5SB/6.5JDJ#2 than in the 6.5JDJ or 6.5X30-30Imp.
Some approximate examples (handgun barrel lengths)...
6.5JDJ; 6.5X30-30; 6.5 Super Bower
100 gr... 2500+; 2600-; 2900-
120 gr... 2400-; 2300-; 2600+
140 gr... 2200+; -----; 2400-

Case life is much longer with 307/356 Win brass than 30-30 brass, and longer with the 356 than the 307.

YMMV

hotrod0872 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:49:17 PM »

look into the 6.5BRM at ebaco!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AlanF · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2009, 11:17:37 AM »

Take a look at Gary Reeder's 6.5 Raptor base on a necked up and improved 204 Ruger.

Silvertp · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2009, 12:55:59 PM »

Hopalong...think you summed it up pretty well. A sweet shooting 6.5 tender carbine that performs in the field way beyond its modest paper ballistics. Hope we don't cost you too much by starting this thread up...

Ladobe...appreciate the ballistics comparison. One thing I am sure of is the chambering has to be compatible with the Contender, and Im willing to forgo velocity for the sake of a shorter bbl and a quicker handling firearm. From what Im picking up on this thread the 6.5 jdj is adequate for my hunting needs even though its not the alpha dog of the 6.5 pack.

Hotrod...the 6.5 BRM looks like a sweet chambering, however eabco website recommends it for the encore. Im thinking it may develop too much chamber pressure for the Contender.

Alan...Ive never heard of the 6.5 Raptor, will check it out. Thanks!

Thanks all

Silvertp

Ladobe · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2009, 08:57:29 PM »

Quote from: Silvertp on December 20, 2009, 12:55:59 PM

Ladobe...appreciate the ballistics comparison. One thing I am sure of is the chambering has to be compatible with the Contender, and Im willing to forgo velocity for the sake of a shorter bbl and a quicker handling firearm. From what Im picking up on this thread the 6.5 jdj is adequate for my hunting needs even though its not the alpha dog of the 6.5 pack.
Silvertp

Yep, go with what will work the best for your circumstances. The 6.5JDJ is a fine cartridge (I've had two SSK 14" barrels chambered for it). I used mine for predator and varmint hunting. But in the wide open west where I live the "Alpha Dog" is better suited for handgun big game hunting because of the much longer ranges often shot. Back during the bulk of my handgun mule deer/elk hunting days I wouldn't have even considered the 6.5JDJ for hunting them. The 375JDJ and later 309JDJ had become my go to's for handgun hunting by then (replacing the 357/44MAG revolvers I had started out with). I actually bought the 15" 6.5 Super Bower (after I stopped hunting the other big game) for speed goats because it is very capable well past 500 yards. Instead used it for very long range P&V and target matches since I never went back to BG hunting.

Anyway, luck with you're choice.

David D. · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2009, 10:01:59 AM »

Quote from: hotrod0872 on December 19, 2009, 12:49:17 PM

look into the 6.5BRM at ebaco!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use to have one in a Contender. Its nothing more than a 6.5X30-30IMP.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »

I've taken several dozen animals with a 26"/1:8 MGM barrel in 6.5 Bullberry IMP (aka 6.5x30-30 AI). Long-throated and using a slower powder (N160), I am getting excellent velocities and accuracy that must be seen to be believed. In fact, no other powders come close to the velocity that N160 offers in my barrel, and most fall around 100 fps short of it.

The cartridge is the ballistic twin of the 6.5 JDJ, and the 6.5 BRM is in the same basic league. (By the way, the reason Eabco does not offer the BRM in the Contender has nothing to do with safety or pressures but the fact that the TC Custom Shop will not do so for him).

While I really like the 7mms, I have to admit that there are more and better suited bullets to the Contender velocity range when it comes to the 6.5s. I am currently shooting the 129 grain Hornady SP and getting a shade over 2600 fps, which translates into over 1000 ft./lbs of energy at 400 yards -- farther than I'd ever take a shot on game and with a bullet that has neither a plastic tip nor streamlined boat-tailed base.

The 7mm Bullberry is the oddball of the Bullberry family and is not based on the full-length 30-30 but instead is the 7mm International Rimmed with the unnecessarily long neck trimmed back to give a case length of 1.75".

From the 20 1/8th inch barrel of my 7mm Bullberry carbine, I get 2650 fps with 120 grain bullets and 2505 with the long-discontinued Sierra 130 grain SSP. Case life is exceptional, and I have one batch that has seen 24 firings and has never been annealed. And, other than the initial trim to square things up, these have only required trimming 3 times so far.

Silvertp · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:47:30 PM »

Sweetwy...

First, let me get something off my chest..."Thats a dandy buck you got there, good mass and nice symmetry"!!! Gotta love those dark antlers...looks like he has been rubbing in alders.

Now...lots of good info in your post, I read through it several times to make sure I was soaking it all in. Im guessing the 1 in 8 twist is the way to go with 6.5's where the primary purpose is deer size game. Have you tried any light bullets to see how they shoot?

Also, one other question. I see you went carbine length in your 7mm Bullberry and opted for a 26" in the 6.5. What was your rational for the bbl length chambering decision?

Also, thanks for posting the cartridge pic...Ive always been a visual guy and helps to see how some of these not-so-common chamberings stack up with the venerable 30/30 and .308.

Silvertp

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2009, 01:23:15 PM »

Thanks! The buck probably got the coloration from a combination of juniper (cedar), pecan and huisache. I'm actually in Texas, and my handle here reflects my dream home state. I dearly love my native Texas, but Wyoming is heaven on earth...

The area I am located in is not known for good antler growth, but each of the last 2 years, I've been fortunate enough to take a nice, mature buck with better-than-average headgear.

As to 1:8, I consider it the optimum twist rate, and it affords superb accuracy with everything from the stubby 85 grain Sierra HP through the long, slender, 140grain A-Max and similar projectiles. I've used a 1:8 in TCUs, JDJs, Swedes & 6.5-06 among others and feel it is optimum for the bore diameter. In this particular barrel, the 85 grain HPs, driven by either Re-15 or H4350, will cut tiny cloverleafs at 100 yards all day long.

I chose 26" on the 6.5 BB IMP as I wanted to maximize ballistics. My original goal was a 140 grain Sierra GameKing at 2400 fps. I reached that easily. The 7mm BB -- well, I did not make that decision. I got the barrel used from a fellow in the Dakotas in the late 1990s, and it has served me admirably ever since.

Here's my 2008 buck taken on the same small piece of property:

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2009, 01:43:34 PM »

Here's a sampling of game I've taken with 7mm BB:

---

And a few with the 6.5 BB IMP:

While neither runs at warp speed, they obviously are well-suited to my style of hunting, and I've never felt undergunned with either. If there's a deer or hog I can't kill with either of these, then I wouldn't be able to kill it with anything bigger, either.

Silvertp · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2009, 04:24:30 AM »

Sweetwy...

Based on the pics I find it obvious that the 6.5 and 7 Bullberry works well for you. You have harvested some nice animals. And, take some real quality field pics I might add.

I have always known that the bullets in those calibers are efficient killers. Ive gone the magnum high velocity route (and still love it) but Im ready for a little less blast and a light fun carbine to carry. Im settled on the 6.5 caliber in a carbine bbl, but am still undecided on length (leaning toward 18") and who I am going to have build my bbl.

Gotta love having these kinds of tough decisions to ponder.

Silvertp

David D. · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:36:52 AM »

I received an email back from JD at SSk. He stated they had made a few 6.5JDJ#2's for Conrtenders for some to try. He also stated they had no load data on the computer to send. And in his opinion the 6.5JDJ made from the .225Win. brass was a much better choice.

I do know I really like my 6.5JDJ's

Rifle barrel is a 20" OTT 6.5X225IMP (aka 6.5JDJ)

Pistol barrel a 14" SSK Full Length Rib 6.5JDJ

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2009, 12:24:55 PM »

Silvertp, I hear ya' saying you're leaning toward 18"....that is handy, quick handlin' and all that but...it also equates to "hard to hold steady" too. I shoot Contender carbines with barrels in 16.25", 18", and 21" and like'm all but there's no doubt that I shoot the 21" barrels more accurately. The 16.25"er's are the ultimate for carrying and handling but are hard to shoot. My 18" is a 6mmTCU FRO barrel that I bought used and although I really like it...if I was having it "custom" built it would be 20" instead of 18". I think that if I have a 6.5JDJ Carbine barrel made...it will be 20" and full bull. Both Dave's and Sweetwy's "short" barrels in their photos are 20"er's.
Don't let an ol' coot's ramblin' have too much effect on ya' but, if at all possible, I would reccomend handlin' one before you jump.

Ladobe · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2009, 03:50:31 PM »

Quote from: David D. on December 22, 2009, 05:36:52 AM

I received an email back from JD at SSk. He stated they had made a few 6.5JDJ#2's for Conrtenders for some to try. He also stated they had no load data on the computer to send. And in his opinion the 6.5JDJ made from the .225Win. brass was a much better choice.

I wonder what he is using to base his "much better choice" on? Since I've had the equivalent of both, loaded for and shot both long range at small targets for a lot of years, all the parameters I can think of plainly show the 307/356 case based 6.5's are easily ballistically superior to the 225 Win based 6.5's. With a premium barrel they all will shoot the eye out of a gnat within their respective range limitations, but while you can load down the 6.5SB to 6.5JDJ performance for example, you can't load the 6.5JDJ up to that of the 6.5SB.

Heartily agree with Walt... a 20" bull is about the optimum length for a Contender carbine barrel. Balances well, swings well and carries well.

Silvertp · « **Reply #26 on:** December 23, 2009, 08:06:34 PM »

David D...

Thanks for the update from JD. At least I know now that the 6.5 JDJ#2 is an option for the contender.

Appreciate all of you for your patience in recommending the 20" barrel as well. I guess the values of the 20" became painfully obvious when I looked at all the pictures sporting that length. I have to say they look like a good balanced length for the contender frame.

Old Coot...er..Hopalong I'll have to keep my eyes peeled at the guns shows and shops to see if I can put my hands on an 18 and a 20 to see what I think. Ive all my contender experience with 14" pistol bbls so this venture into the carbine side of things is kinda new to me.

Ladobe...you mentioned the 6.5 SB several times and I recall you saying they are hard to come by. Is it a proprietary chambering? and who chambers for it? Sounds like it just may be the alpha dog for 6.5's in the tender. Is there any real world advantages of the SB round over the jdj#2? Im trying to figure out if I should be considering three chamberings (6.5jdj, jdj#2 and SB) or only two (6.5jdj, jdj#2).

Dang, past my bedtime.
Silvertp

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #27 on:** December 23, 2009, 08:20:43 PM »

There's a reason JD doesn't recommend the 6.5 JDJ #2: he's seen too many stretched frames from cartridges based on the .307 case.

If you are careful and pay attention to details, the #2 or SB can be safely used in the Contender and do offer a moderate ballistic edge. Many shooters have used them for years with excellent results. Others, trying to get the last few fps out of their rigs, ran into trouble.

Also, early SB data that was circulated was definitely red-lining in a Contender.

In rifle-length tubes, the improved 30-30 case offers a wonderful balance, and in the case of my 26" 6.5 Bullberry IMP (6.5x30-30 AI) by MGM, I get positive deer-stopping performance out as far as I ever care to take a shot at game. Accuracy is superb, terminal bullet performance is excellent, and I don't have to burn a pound of powder or endure shoulder-breaking recoil to get game on the ground.

I have said it before, but if there is a deer or hog anywhere that I can't cleanly kill inside of 250 yards with my either 6.5 BB IMP or 7mm BB, then I would not be able to kill it with anything more powerful, either.

After all, you can only kill an animal one degree of dead...

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 24, 2009, 03:21:42 AM »

Silvertp, I was refering to myself as the ol' coot.
Have a Merry Christmas...maybe Santa will bring ya that barrel.

David D. · « **Reply #29 on:** December 24, 2009, 06:09:35 AM »

Loadobe

I don't know what JD was basing his opinion on as he didn't go into detail. But owning and using the 6.5JDJ and experiencing the performance of it I can understand his opinion. Even more after reading Bobby's post.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ans HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Dave