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Author Topic: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification  (Read 1040 times)

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Offline Jal5

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Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« on: December 17, 2009, 01:37:23 PM »
I inherited these 2 bp rifles: one a Kentucky long rifle type the other a octagonal barrelled percussion cap type I think with the barrel marked as SPAIN, JUKAR black powder only. My uncle made these from kits in the early 80's and was very precise n cabinet, grandfather clock, desk making. Any ideas for identification would be helpful.  I plan to either take them to a gunsmith or a friend who is very knowledgable about bp rifles to verify if they are in shootable condition. To my knowledge he never shot either of them just displayed them. Thanks.

Joe
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Offline Jal5

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2009, 01:39:19 PM »
more pics
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 02:55:25 PM »
The shorter one was made by Jukar which was the predesessor to CVA/Traditions. Fairly common reproduction rifle, not collectable, but a passible shooter if in good condition.
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Offline Jal5

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 03:23:14 PM »
thanks at least that is a start!
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2009, 04:13:10 PM »
The top one has a lot in common with the 1795 Springfield Musket but the lock doesn't jibe.  Possibly a Brown Bess.  Some one better than me can ID it for sure!
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Denny Roark
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Offline flintlock

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 03:17:22 AM »
I've been around and shot flintlocks since 1975...I don't think the top one was a kit...It looks like he made that gun from various parts picked up...The lock is a back action, popular during the percussion period (1820-1900) but it has a frizzen from the flintlock period
(1620-1830s)...We see these type guns from folks good in wood working, but aren't historically accurate...

btw...The front sight on the bottom gun is on backwards...
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2009, 08:37:03 AM »
Top gun appears to be a back action African Trade gun, circa late 1870 to 1900.  Here's a link to the page I was looking at
http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms.htm 
Scroll down, there are a couple of different ones listed.  Here's a quote from the text...

EXTREMELY UNUSUAL & POSSIBLY UNIQUE AMERICAN CONVERTED BACK ACTION AFRICAN TRADE GUN, ca. 1870: Most probably a proto-type African Trade Gun, made by D. Kirkwood of Boston, (see G. Gardner). Made from a standard Belgian Import, Civil War Percussion musket, with its back action percussion mechanism having been converted to Flintlock. The band-secured, 42", rifled, .69 caliber barrel with bottom mounted bayonet lug, standard Liege proofs and "D. Kirkwood, Boston." stamped, in very small cursive characters, on the bottom left edge of the breech. Choice walnut fullstock with inspectors marks throughout. In overall excellent condition. The iron surfaces a smooth dark patina with no pitting. The stock retains all of its finish and has virtually no handling marks. All the markings are clear. Original iron ramrod. A very unusual rifled musket which was probably produced as a proto-type for a possible late 19th century African Trade venture. More research needs to be done on Kirkwood of Boston
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Denny Roark
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Offline Jal5

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2009, 09:11:26 AM »
Denny both of these guns were definitely made from kits. My uncle told me he made them and my cousin dated it to early to mid 1980s. Beyond that I am not sure. I plan to dissassemble the barrel so I can see if there are any markings on either the barrel itself or the wood.
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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2009, 09:49:39 AM »
Check the back side of the lock, too.  Let us know what you find.  Could have been a "Belguim Import Trade gun" kit, but the lock don't look right.  Stock kinda looks like birch, tho, typical of late model kits.  Is it rifled?  Any caliber markings?  It's possible he built it from modern parts he bought, fitted and assembled himself (then it would be a custom, not kit).  All in all it was kinda fun trying to figure it out.  Being layed off is starting to stink!
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Denny Roark
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2009, 10:27:11 AM »
top is an African trade musket. I had one in .54cal smoothbore.



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Offline DennyRoark

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 01:28:22 PM »
That's sweet, BB.  Did you build it?
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Denny Roark
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2009, 01:56:27 PM »
mine was in pretty rough shape when i got it. I stripped the barrel, polished the bore, Refinished the stock, had to work on the lock to unfree it. Got it working great and it would hold a 4" group @ 75 yards with 60gr 3f goex, .015 patch and .530 round ball. Lock sparked excellent too.

The locks are actually 2 piece.

It was a SOB to clean though LOL. couldnt find a long enough ramrod for the barrel.
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Offline necchi

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2009, 04:02:36 PM »
Very interesting, never seen one, Thanks for sharing bigblock
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Offline Jal5

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 06:57:11 AM »
Hey Bigblock that is the exact gun! Thanks. This one has no rifling, so its a smoothbore. I have yet to take it all apart. Any suggestions on barrel removal, or description of take down that I can find someplace? I am completely new to this type of rifle.

I found one marking on the lock on the piece that holds the flint, the initials GT or CT I can't exactly tell which. What would that indicate?

Slight rust on the outside of the barrel and the bore is dirty but I can take care of that, looks like old grease in the bore. It has the original steel ramrod.

Joe
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Need help with 2 BP rifles identification
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 09:45:24 AM »
im not sure what those letters are, proof marks maybe.

they were made in Belgium and should be marks with that somewhere on the barrel.

Remove the tiny nose piece screw and the forestock should slide off, then remove the tang screw carefully ( i'd actually spray down the thread with penetrating oil before attempting) It goes through the trigger assy.

Then just carefully remove the barrel from the stock.
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