357Mag useful range?

[Spanky]

I'm talking whitetail deer here in upstate NY. My personal opinion after seeing how well mine shoots is 150yds or so. It just shoots so well that I wouldn't hesitate to take a shot at that range. I think it would be plenty to take deer cleanly. What do you guys think?



Spanky

[Lazermule]

Any idea what the energy would be at that range?

I guess if I had confidence in my shot with mine, I would take a 150 yard shot with it as well.

LM

[Oscar2287]

There's about a million formulas for trying to figure out whether it would or wouldn't have the right energy, etc.  I agree that you would have to be very confident in shot placement to make it work because it would definately be on the light side with regards to velocity, energy, momentum, etc at that range.  On the other hand most people would argue that you shouldn't shoot deer with a 22 LR - but it works.  I've seen a standard 22 LR penetrate to the heart at about 40 yards.  Probably wasn't the best experiment but goes to show that shot placement is still the most important part.

I think you'd have enough energy left at that range - the question is would that bullet on that day go exactly where you needed it to?

[Spanky]

I don't know what the figures would be at that range but I don't really pay attention to the numbers anyway. I'm sure that any well constructed bullet in the boiler room would be lights out regardless of what the numbers say. Deer just ain't that hard to kill with a well placed shot.



Spanky

[Doublebass73]

I wouldn't hesistate as long as I had enough practice time at that range to feel confident.

[briannmilewis]

Just read a good article about hunting with the 357 Maximum.

His balisitcs are: Zero 160 yards: 3.6@100 yards & -3.6@200 yards

[Lon371]

Just read a good article about hunting with the 357 Maximum.

His balisitcs are: Zero 160 yards: 3.6@100 yards & -3.6@200 yards

Where was the article? Did it mention the bullet size, velocity or energy? Thanks

Lonny

[Jimbo47]

I would use it and not look back!   Most deer are taken within 100 yards and less, and the .357 Mag loaded with the right bullet will do the job!

I live in a state that 200 yard shots are pretty much to be expected and in 50+ years of hunting I could count on one hand the number of deer I've taken at or beyond that range, with most being under 100 yards.

Most were taken using rifles with open sights, with a lot of bow hunting thrown into the scenerio, so it's just my style.

It's what your preferences are, and what you have confidence in, and feel comfortable with, and knowing your rifle and what it is capable of.

[cwlongshot]

 Personally, 100 yards is my max. The bullet just looses velocity rapidly at ranges past 100. Its bullet lacks the SD and the case the powder capacity to make it a reliable longer range performer. SURE it will work, but the chances of problems greatly increase as the ranges lengthen. I feel we owe more to the game we shoot than to gamble this way.

IMHO, Its an excellent close range deer killer in a carbine or rifle, just don't push it too far.

CW

[NickSS]

Personally I would never try to shoot a deer with a pistol caliber rifle at much more than 100 yards and even that would be too far for some.  Not that you could not kill a deer at longer ranges but all sorts of things could affect shot placement.  With proper shot placement you can kill anything on this continent with really long range shots.  However,  my experience with pistol caliber rifles is that the bullets slow up quite fast and energy falls off faster yet.  Beyond about 100 yards you will loose shock and penetration fast and bullet placement gets more difficult.  One case in point was a deer I shot with a 44 mag rifle.  I was using a full power magnum load with a speer 240 gr JSP slug.  I had good luck the previous year killing a deer clean at about 40 yards but this year I go a shot at a deer that was around 150 yards.  The slug hit right in the center of the dhest area and the bullet penetrated both lungs.  The animal ran for almost 200 yards before dieing. When I opened it up the bullet was against a rib on the far side of the chest and the wound channel was fairly small.  Not only that but there was almost no blood trail to follow.  I was lucky to find that animal at all.  Since then I never shoot any big game at over 100 yards with a pistol caliber rifle.

[Spanky]

I appreciate the replies guys, negative and positive.

Nick,
In your case was it the fact that the bullet did not expand at all? I stick to JHP's in my 44 mag just for that reason. I have never shot a deer with it though so I don't know how it would perform.

I'm currently shooting 125 gr. JSP's out of my 357 and they shoot great. I think you have a valid point I don't know if the 357 would retain enough velocity at 150 yds. to expand. It might end up the same as your 44 with a small wound channel.



Spanky

[Spanky]

Personally, 100 yards is my max. The bullet just looses velocity rapidly at ranges past 100. Its bullet lacks the SD and the case the powder capacity to make it a reliable longer range performer. SURE it will work, but the chances of problems greatly increase as the ranges lengthen. I feel we owe more to the game we shoot than to gamble this way.
IMHO, Its an excellent close range deer killer in a carbine or rifle, just don't push it too far.
CW

CW,
Thanks for the words of wisdom. IMO you are one of the "go to" guys around here for the right answers.
Do you recommend any certain bullet that would work well for my intended purpose?



Spanky

[snapcrackpop]

I think the problem NickSS pointed out is that even with his good shot placement on a broadside deer, the bullet didn't EXIT.  Now 200 yards is quite far with both lungs hit, but without expansion it can happen.  Finding that deer anywhere except open plains or with lots of snow is going to be very tough.

[Spanky]

I think the problem NickSS pointed out is that even with his good shot placement on a broadside deer, the bullet didn't EXIT.  Now 200 yards is quite far with both lungs hit, but without expansion it can happen.  Finding that deer anywhere except open plains or with lots of snow is going to be very tough.

I agree that it would be a hard find. My brother in law shot one low in the neck one time. It was a straight on frontal shot. The deer took off running and out of sight it went. We followed it's tracks for over 200 yds. without any blood. Found the deer laying dead. The shot was right in the windpipe and into the body cavity, the deer just ran until it was out of air. When we opened it up, there was alot of blood inside but none outside.   That shot was with a 30-06 with 150 gr. SP ammo. I definitely wouldn't take a shot like that with the 357.


Spanky

[Tallwalker]

One of the problems with using the .357 at 150 yards is knowing that it is in fact 150 yards. As stated above, a few yards will make a big difference in trajectory. Col. Townsend Whelen once said that as long as a bullet will penetrate to the vitals, and have the energy to disrupt vital functions it will do the job on that game. I would use my .357 rifle to 100 yards...... or maybe a bit more. One of my problems is a lack of places to shoot any further than that when sighting in, or practicing.... That limits my range sometimes more than the caliber of the gun I'm shooting.

[mannyrock]

  Well, for goodnes sakes, the man asked whether the .357 Mag has enough power at 150 yards to cleanly take deer.

   Answer: Plainly NO.

   At 100 yards, the regular factory load with 158 grain bullet has fallen to only about 725 foot pounds.  This is about the limit for  having reliable penetration and expansion from the soft nose bullet.  That is why experienced hunters who regularly use the .357 Mag uniformly place the range limit at 100 yards.  AND, they will consistently tell you that they avoid a shoulder bone or shoulder joint shot, trying always for a broadside lung shot.

   At 150 yards, I would guess (haven't calculated) that the bullet has fallen to about 500 foot pounds or less, about Half of what is routinely recommended for reliable and consistent deer kills (1,000 ft pounds.)

  QUESTION: How come when somebody asks about the .357 Magnum, so many folks start chiming in with statistics and data for the .357 Maximum?  Not the same.

Mannyrock

[quickdtoo]

Just read a good article about hunting with the 357 Maximum.

His balisitcs are: Zero 160 yards: 3.6@100 yards & -3.6@200 yards

Where was the article? Did it mention the bullet size, velocity or energy? Thanks

Lonny

See 357 Remington Maximum in Indiana in the FAQs.

   QUESTION: How come when somebody asks about the .357 Magnum, so many folks start chiming in with statistics and data for the .357 Maximum?  Not the same.

Mannyrock

Because a simple hand rechambering to Max will make the 357mag into a 150yd plus deer rifle, yet 357mag can still be used in it, it's probably THE most popular "upgrade" for any Handi. 

Tim

[JW/OK]

I shot a large mature whitetail buck this year at close range with a 357 magnum revolver with good results.
But when talking about hunting with a possible 150 yard shot with a 357 magnum rifle I just keep seeing this picture in my mind of a mature, large bodied buck of a lifetime quartering away at 150 yards and I have to let him walk cause I'm undergunned. Just thinking out loud.

[mannyrock]

 JW,

  You are thinking correctly.  With a regular .357 Mag, at 150 yards, you are gonna have to let him walk.  If you hunt in an area where shots longer than 100 yards are likely, then do the right thing, and use a cartridge with more thump.   If you love the .357 Mag, then follow Tim's advice, and upgrade to the .357 Maximum.  Otherwise, go at least to a .44 Mag.

Manny

[cwlongshot]

CW,
Thanks for the words of wisdom. IMO you are one of the "go to" guys around here for the right answers.
Do you recommend any certain bullet that would work well for my intended purpose?  Spanky

I have shot a couple with the 357, in both handguns and carbines. (Shamefully never a handi 357 Mag) In my Colt Whitetailer, after much testing I arrived at a max load of H110 powder and a Speer 240Gr HP. The 125 HP's proved too violent and lacked enough penetration. the 125 SP where better but wouldn't exit if bones where struck. The 158HP was OK, but I felt a bet more velocity of the 140 might be just the ticket. It has worked well for me. THAT WAS A 8" BARREL>>>

In my 18" barrel of my Marlin, that same load proved again a violent expander and lacked enough penetration. The 158 HP's where better but again,  if major bones where hit it was a crap shoot if you got exit wounds. the 180 IMHO is plainly too heavy for the powder cap available to the little magnum. Sierra makes a nice 170HP. This was pretty good too but I settled on the 158SP bullet.

ALL that was before the excellent XTP or GOLD DOT bullets came on the scene.

Now my hands down favorite from a carbine in 357Mag is Hornady's 158 FP XTP!! This thing ROCKS!!! It acts just like a good rifle bullet. Expands adequately, even on lung shots and smashes thru shoulders and spines always giving me an exit wound. The Gold Dot bullet is newer and is also a HP, which i DO NOT prefer. But its design make this one hold together like a SP, yet expand more initially. NICE combination. I haven't shot but a couple with it in the Mag and MAXI. Its worked well at MAG velocities, too soft for the MAXI on deer.

IMHO the 125's are WAY too fragile for any deer when fired from a carbine. You will hear of lightning bolt like reactions from some guys. Yes its a violent expander and will almost never get you an exit. Remember, its DESIGNED to stay inside of Mr Bad guy when you catch him going thru mommas jewelry drawer in the middle of the night!!  Again, absolutely yes, it will kill a deer. But if you take my advice, save them for Mr bad guy or summertime chucks!!

CW

[briannmilewis]

Just read a good article about hunting with the 357 Maximum.

His balisitcs are: Zero 160 yards: 3.6@100 yards & -3.6@200 yards

Where was the article? Did it mention the bullet size, velocity or energy? Thanks

Lonny

Tim led you in the right direction, here is the actual article link: http://357maximum.com/the-357-maximum-rifle-in-the-field/

He recommends 180gr SSP Hornady.

[Lazermule]

I appreciate the replies guys, negative and positive.

Nick,
In your case was it the fact that the bullet did not expand at all? I stick to JHP's in my 44 mag just for that reason. I have never shot a deer with it though so I don't know how it would perform.

I'm currently shooting 125 gr. JSP's out of my 357 and they shoot great. I think you have a valid point I don't know if the 357 would retain enough velocity at 150 yds. to expand. It might end up the same as your 44 with a small wound channel.



Spanky



I too fell in love with 125 gr bullet in my 357 mag.  They shot flat and accurate and had little recoil.  I then worked up a hunting load and headed for the woods.  That year I lost a 180 class buck withj that round.  I hit him with a broadside shot and down he went and thrashed around in front of me.  As I climbed out of my stand he got up and took off......I tracked limited blood for 1/4 to 1/2 mile and lost the trail.  The light bullet transfered a ton of energy but failed to penetrate and mess up the vitals.  This was a big deer probably field dressing in the 250 lb + range if I had to guess.  I now shoot no smaller than 158 gr bullets at white tails but prefer 180 grn and am working up a load with the 200 grn Hornady FTX for the Handi.  From past experience, I'd rather lob a bigger slower bullet in and get some penetration than slap them around with the 125 gr again.  my $.02....

LM

[44 Man]

Some of you guys who feel the .357 is not enough are forgetting that is makes a LOT more velocity and energy from the rifle barrel.  You don't often see the rifle velocities listed.  I do agree completely with Spanky not to use the 125 HP for hunting.  I shot a Michigan whitetail with one at 80 yds from a 6" S&W and it blew up in the lungs.  Put the deer down almost instantly, but what would have happened had I shot him 6" farther forward and hit the shoulder.  No, those bullets are not designed for rifle velocities at all.  Personally, I would shoot a 158 SWC cast bullet over a max load of 296 and never look back.  Most factory bullets for the .357 are designed for maximum destruction at 21' from a 6" barrel.  44 Man

[wreckhog]

Big difference in velocity at 25 yards vs 125 yards. Makes bullet choice problematic.

[kevinsmith5]

I think the best answer to this question is a possible maybe.  There are just to many variables to answer definitvely. Bullet choice, load, size of the deer, how good a shot the shooter is, etc.  Bottom line for me would be if you really think you'll be hunting where you will get a 150 yard shot, take something other than the 357.  My 44 mag is my "heavy woods and swamp gun" and I only take it when that's where I'm headed.  Unless you reamer out to MAximum I'd stick to the same strategy with any pistol caliber for deer.

[xhare]

When fired from rifle length barrels, both the 357 and 44 mag have as much velocity at 100-125 yards as a revolver does at the muzzle.  This is with top loads (H110, W296, etc).  Now, even with the added velocity, the trajectory of the bullet begins to drop off quite rapidly after 100 yards, if not a little sooner. 

So, if you think a 357 mag revolver is adequate at point blank range, then hunt with the carbine.  Practice at 100 yards and you will have confidence.  Pick the right bullet, the XTP and Gold Dots are best and hard cast with a big flat nose would do well also.  Pick your shot placement like you were bow hunting and you will have no problems.  A 357 carbine will be more effective at a 100 yards than an arrow is at 40 yards. 

[wreckhog]

When fired from rifle length barrels, both the 357 and 44 mag have as much velocity at 100-125 yards as a revolver does at the muzzle.  This is with top loads (H110, W296, etc).  Now, even with the added velocity, the trajectory of the bullet begins to drop off quite rapidly after 100 yards, if not a little sooner.  

So, if you think a 357 mag revolver is adequate at point blank range, then hunt with the carbine.  Practice at 100 yards and you will have confidence.  Pick the right bullet, the XTP and Gold Dots are best and hard cast with a big flat nose would do well also.  Pick your shot placement like you were bow hunting and you will have no problems.  A 357 carbine will be more effective at a 100 yards than an arrow is at 40 yards.  

125 and 140 XTP's are proven out of handguns; ie at handgun velocities and ranges, yet different bullets are chosen for carbines. I think that more than in the case of a 30-30, bullet selection is critical for a 0-150 yard .357, regardless if it is a Mag or Max.

[achildofthesky]

My thinking isn't so much about the energy remaining but the velocity to get the bullet to expand rather than pencil through... I shoot ALOT of 44 mag (got my deer this year with a 1894ss & hand rolled 300gr XTP, about a 30 yard somewhat steep downhill shot) and while I have no doubt about the energy remaining on a hard target, but a heart lung area hit may not open up the bullet as much as I would like due to softness of tissue in surrounding areas if the bullets is a little off. For that rifle (with a 2.5x Leupold FXII ultralight), I'd greatly prefer a max of about 125 yards to a super max of 150 or so. If I expect a 100-200 shot is somewhat possible I will go to a 30-30 or 30-06 (along with the 45-70, my world of cartridges I load for) due to much higher impact velocities (or in the case of the 45-70 just a bplain old bigger hole)assuring proper bullet performance.

Just my $.0525
Be safe
Patty

[coues2506]

Hunting big game with a .357mag is just plain irresponsible. It demonstrates a total lack of the understanding of ballistics and remaining energy for humane kills. Too bad those using .357's can't figure this out and choose one of many more appropriate calibers. Even the lowly 30-30 is far better. You need to consider bullet construction, remaining energy and sectional density. Just look at the number of states that the .357 doesn't make minimum energy in. Come on guys, wise up, be a sportsman, give the deer a break! Wishful thinking and self justification never humanly killed anything

[lrs]

Has anyone tried a hard cast 200 grain swc with the carbine?