Author Topic: Even more confused..... (Read 1310 times)

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **on:** December 21, 2009, 05:16:46 AM »

I broke this post off the "Dismal at Best" post as part of that was resolved with nasty inconsistancies in bullet weight and balance. I shot again yesterday with varying results. For starters, I have been shooting off the bench for 25+ years and have several 1/2MOA groups with my .250GP. Sure don't claim to be an expert but have been around the block a couple times. I am confident that my rest, breathing and trigger pull techniques are not influencing these 3 1/2"/ 60yard groups. Group "B" was 1 1/2" / 5 shot group and proof that something was "right". I posted this to the Cast Boolits forum yesterday as well. I did find a .020 or so windage "play" in the Leatherwood mount last night and am re-machining that today. This is the cheap mount that comes with the Malcolm scope. I have reworked the mount to dramatically reduce play and roughness. The "slop" discovered last night was the difference between screw diameter and the clearance holes for the windage. I doweled the mount to eliminate but have not shot yet. The grouping really does not indicate horizontal stringing so not sure if this will really improve the groups. Is there something I am missing on the rifle that may be unique to these Handi's?
Here is what I posted to the CB forum:
Just got back from a fun afternoon of shooting the Buffalo Classic. 27 degrees and no wind. As noted the loads were Unique and the Lyman 457122 350gr(w/o the hollow point). Halfway thru the session I got my best yet group and thought I was finally onto something! Wrong.......that would have been way to easy. Pic "A" shows my first group. This group and all succeeding groups in the top half of the sheet(with two groups per sheet) were shot with the front rest located exactly under the forend screw. Rear rest was a Caldwell bag. These loads were identical except incrementally increasing powder by 1/2 grain as noted. Notice the cloverleaf just to the right of "E". Those (3) shots were successive shots with the next two 1 o'clock high. Group "B" and all succeeding groups in the lower half of the sheet were shot with the rest under the very front of the receiver with the bag almost touching the front of the trigger bow. I got

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:29:10 AM »

Number 2, 3, 5 and 7.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,116451.msg1098375514.html#msg1098375514

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:34:49 AM »

Tim,
E-mails and forums are impossible to judge context so I will preface this post by saying I ask these questions in an open and inquisitive manner not as a smart a#@. You will have to explain to me how #2 and #7 affect accuracy….short of partial opening during bullet travel in the barrel. I have hundreds of rounds thru my double rifle(45-70) so fully understand the mechanics of the “muzzle rise while bullet is still in the barrel” issue. Folks who have not seen this would be amazed at point of impact changes with different loads either bench or offhand. Little effect on grouping just point of impact.

2) I am making sure the action is locked up. Several closures that may have been suspect were reclosed smartly.

3) As described in the post, this is what I did for the last (4) 5-shot strings(“B” and lower groups on “C”, “D” and “E”.

5) I have the forend shimmed off the bbl via AN960-516 aircraft washers resulting in no bbl contact and have reworked the forend screw hold to just allow light pressure on the hinge faces.

7)Shelf is dry.

I may throw the factory target sights back on tonite and shoot a few group as time allows to eliminate or bring to surface scope/mount issues.

Tallwalker · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2009, 07:06:20 AM »

Though I have not found Unique to be position sensitive, you might try standing each case vertical, and then slowly turning it horizontal for loading. If you take .020 over the length between your scope mounts, and figure that distance at 60 yards it will be impressive. It is strange that the dispersion is vertical instead of horizontal though. If lock up is tight, have you tried shooting it without the forend at all? How about a credit card shim at the forend tip? Some barrels just like to be dampened a bit. I have also found Handi forends that were really tight, but not evenly where the barrel tapers abruptly to the chamber area. Relieving a tight, but off center spot on one Handi there made it group better. Hopefully, you will track this down.

peternap · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2009, 07:13:16 AM »

When I first saw you here and CB, my first thought was that Unique probably wasn't the best choice for that gun. But then...some have had outstanding results. I'd try something a little slower...but first, I'd try to eliminate what you can.

What you can get out of the mix is the forend. Why not remove it and shoot over a thick sandbag under the hinge. That should put that dog to rest.

Then try some different loads if your groups don't stabilize.

If that doesn't help, start looking for the aliens in the gun.

I guess before you do anything else though, shoot as is with the redone mount.

Good Luck!

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2009, 07:31:37 AM »

I think I will load up 50 of the 11gr loads tonite and at least eliminate the variable of different loads. That group "B" shows excellent potential. It's tough not having the background of the other posts but I want to use the Unique only because I have about 5#'s of it. That's a lot of free shoooting. Others have had MOA groupings in their Buffalo Classics with Unique and lighter teeth so I want to try to stick with these(it has nothing to do with having an old Ideal 457122 mold on the way!) I am using toilet paper wadding very lightly tamped over the powder charge. As suggested by others, I do need to try Dacron wadding, but again group "B" indicates my TP is working just fine. If reworking the scope mount makes no difference I will remove the forend for a couple strings. I will also try a little pressure at the forend tip.

I very much appreciate all your suggestions and will incorporate as many as possible if groups don't tighten by addressing the basics. Keep 'em coming!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2009, 08:06:44 AM »

Quote from: SCHUETZENBOOMER on December 21, 2009, 06:34:49 AM

Tim,
E-mails and forums are impossible to judge context so I will preface this post by saying I ask these questions in an open and inquisitive manner not as a smart a#@. You will have to explain to me how #2 and #7 affect accuracy….short of partial opening during bullet travel in the barrel. I have hundreds of rounds thru my double rifle(45-70) so fully understand the mechanics of the “muzzle rise while bullet is still in the barrel” issue. Folks who have not seen this would be amazed at point of impact changes with different loads either bench or offhand. Little effect on grouping just point of impact.

2) I am making sure the action is locked up. Several closures that may have been suspect were reclosed smartly.

3) As described in the post, this is what I did for the last (4) 5-shot strings(“B” and lower groups on “C”, “D” and “E”.

5) I have the forend shimmed off the bbl via AN960-516 aircraft washers resulting in no bbl contact and have reworked the forend screw hold to just allow light pressure on the hinge faces.

7)Shelf is dry.

I may throw the factory target sights back on tonite and shoot a few group as time allows to eliminate or bring to surface scope/mount issues.

Just making sure those bases are covered.

Since the scope/mounts are not above suspicion, remove it from the equation and remove the traditional scope and use a known good scope and mounts to get the load work done, once the load is worked out, then work with the scope. I don't recollect if you checked the crown, but it's an easy thing to check and fix, there's a link in the FAQs on that, Easy Crown fix or something to that affect.

Best of luck in this quest, last resort is to return the rifle to H&R, the factory standard is 2" or less, 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, if it won't do that, there may be a problem with the barrel fit, but I'd eliminate the other possibilities first.

Tim

dmitch · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2009, 08:16:44 AM »

It appears that you are identifying as many variables in this load development as possible, but have you thought about

the lead bullet itself........the sizing vs bore dia., the lube, the alloy? As, I am sure, you know, lead can be and usually

is more of a challenge in a rifle at 100 yds than lead out of a revolver at 25 yds.......pistol is pretty easy.

You might want to try a proven jacketed bullet for some comparison.

If you have already addressed any of this in a previous post, I apologize for muddying the water.

dmitch

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2009, 09:21:55 AM »

Thanx Dmitch,

Sizing shoud be OK. I did shoot 5 factory 300 grainers with jacketed teeth. Same results. I will try again with some 400's.

Spanky · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:21:07 PM »

For the life of me I can't figure out how you're getting that thing to shoot so bad. I shoot trapdoor loads with 405gr. hardcast out of my 22" 45-70 and it'll shoot circles around that thing. At 60yds. most 45-70 Handi's will shoot cloverleafs. First thing I'd do is take that scope off there and replace it with something decent or put the original sights back on it. Take the washers out of the forend too and see what happens. In other words... start over with it the way it came from the factory. Don't be surprised if it shoots great.

Spanky

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:55:10 PM »

What Spanky said. Too much effort in making a gun work better will net the reverse of what you want, sometimes.

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2009, 03:10:54 PM »

Rule of thumb, if the groups are consistently not round, then there's a fixable problem causing it.

Simplest: Chrono it. Are they leaving the barrel at the same velocity?
Next simplest: Sights. Something loose in scope, vertical play in mount, parallax error if you're moving your eye?
Gun locks up solid with no play, even without the forearm?
Muzzle crowned perfectly?

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2009, 03:09:03 AM »

Part of the problem here is me spltting off the post from the original. If you go back an look at the "Dismal at Best" post, you will get a better idea of my trials. Let's face it, folks get tired of seeing the same post. I posted because I thought it might give others a good history of the troubleshooting process on a particularly difficult rifle. I have been chambering, throating, crowning, and reading chamber casts for over 20 years. I have a rough idea of what makes a target rifle tick and all these concerns are non-issues on this rifle. Rather, I am quite impressed with the apparent out of the box quality of this rifle.

I am not too proud to say that I have very little experience with these H&R singles, which do present their own uniques set of issues. This is where I am relying on you guys to help troubleshoot. I have picked up several EXCELLENT ideas from this forum. After review yesterday, I feel that part of the issue was the adjustable scope mount. A loose mount would certainly contribute to the randomness of the groupings. Note there is not a whole lot of stringing going on. One point several of you keep missing is that this is a 32" Buffalo Classic and I am using 350 grain cast bullets which SHOULD shoot excellent from a 1:20 twist. In a previous post I indicated that I had shot two groups of factory 300's with poor results. I will put the iron sights back on in hopes of getting a chance to shoot some more factory 300's this weekend. I'll let you know how that turns out.

Merry Christmas and happy shooting to all!

silver surfer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2009, 04:19:43 AM »

Shuetz I hear ya! I changed out the stocks on mine two years ago and thought I had somehow ruined the gun

. I went back to the original wood and Wallah

she's right back to snuff. Keep at it buddy you'll win sooner or later.

Just to add a little more confusion to your frustration... have you tried putting a dab of RTV black on the threads of the scope adjustments? I had a .303 with the older screw type elevation adjustments, every now and again they would "get sloppy" and bullets would scatter like rats. A mechanic buddy pulled out some RTV black (it doesn't harden it just thickens like tar) and I never had a problem with them again.

Another suggestion, have you tried a fiber cooky under your cast bullets? I tried this with my friends sons rifle and it made all the difference in the world. The base of the bullets he was using were blowing out and giving irratic flight, we slapped a 1/8" fiber wad under them and it was a new gun.

Hope this helps and Merry Christmas everybody.

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2009, 04:43:02 AM »

Silver Surfer,

Interesting suggestions!

The forend fit on my BC was terrible. It was hitting VERY hard on the left tip only which I am sure had a lot to do with my original 14"/60 yard pattern(not group). There was a 3/32-1/8" gap on the right only. It took several pounds of force to remove the forend (yes, I took the screw out) as purchased.

My scope is modern Leatherwood Malcolm replica and as such does not have internal adjustments or turrets. I am very happy with the scope but the stock rear mount is junk as supplied. Leatherwood offers a higher quality replacement mount (about $300) for a good reason. I have completely rebuilt it taking tolerance out wherever I could. I think it will suffice as I only intend on a fixed 300 yard setting providing I can dial it in for 100. If it will group at 100..... the bulk of the burden is on me not the rifle.

I have been reading all that I can on the BPCR shooting and just last night read of a similiar "night & day" improvement by just adding an over powder fiber wad. I will add that to my "to do" list.

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:01:36 AM »

The rifle and the rear mount.

peternap · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:10:36 AM »

I found your problem!

It's your bench. Where are the coffee cups, coke cans full of cigarette butts, pile of freshly cast bullets, assorted files, half finished parts and most important.....metal filings and dirt.

How can you expect to get anything done under those conditions.

Here's a small glimpse of accuracy in the making

blacksan · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2009, 01:52:43 PM »

Quote from: SCHUETZENBOOMER on December 22, 2009, 05:01:36 AM

The rifle and the rear mount.

Ahhhhhhhhh, why did you need to post this so close to CHRISTmas?

?

I can see tuna for breakfast, lunch and dinner for the next month you bad influence you..........

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2009, 04:14:24 PM »

Just a quick update. Shot another 50 rounds off the bench last Sunday. Consistant 2"-3 1/2" round groups at 60 yards. I say round to indicate there was no "stringing" either horizontal or vertical. Shot 10 round groups. .....5 with the forend on, 5 with it off....no difference. All loads were identical with bullets weighed to the 1/2gr. These were all my newly cast 330gr HP's. Shots were roughly 30 seconds apart and the weather was 15 degrees no wind and clear. Taking up the "slop" in the scope mount really made no difference from last session at the range. I have some soft cast 425 grainers coming from BAC to see if they make a difference.

Starting to take a lot closer look at the barrel at this point. I did a chamber ream using my old Clymer 45-70 finisher as I just did not like the look of the nearly non-existant taper from case to throat in the original chamber as supplied. I have attached a pic of chamber casts of the before/after of the re-throating. Look at the before and note the rough transition of case to throat. Note the after now shows a nice .100-.125 lead into the rifling. This will also allow seating a bit further out.

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2009, 04:17:39 PM »

Oops...here is the pic.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2009, 05:33:32 PM »

Short (NO)throats in H&R 45-70s is a well known issue and well documented in archived posts, that's why I throated 3 of mine. I still think you need to loose the scope and mount to eliminate them as the likely cause of the problem, I know of no one that has had the trouble you're having with their 45-70s, short throats or otherwise, until you use a known good sighting system you're just wasting powder, bullets and your time, IMHO.

Tim

SCHUETZENBOOMER · « **Reply #21 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:36:02 AM »

Tim,

Yup...next trip to the bench is with the factory issued sights. I'm getting tired of getting nowhere. I have loaded up 10 more rounds, same recipie as last time out.

Tim, do you think that .001" larger bore at muzzle will make a substancial difference? I have .452" at muzzle and .451" at breech(measured with precision gage pins). The .452" just enters the muzzle and slides nicely down to within 10" of the chamber. The .451" pin slides clear thru with slight resistance within an inch of the chamber.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:54:20 AM »

That would be the land diameter, the groove diameter is likely .0005" larger at the muzzle, at least every one that I've checked has been, none have been .001" bigger, but even so, they still shoot great. That's not unusual, I've dropped a .452" bullet down the bore of 3 of my 45-70s, it dropped straight thru on two of them, the other stopped mid bore. You could always use a lead slug to lap the bore if you really wanted to, it's been brought up before, but I don't recollect anyone ever doing it, they always shoot great without the work.

Tim