armed officer--snowball fight

[Cabin4]

Here is my take on it.
It was on a public street and it included people in the street with traffic.
It did include throwing of snowballs at cars.
It did include throwing of snowballs indiscrimately at people and cars who may not have wanted to be involved.
It did include people NOT obeying a lawful order.
It did include argueing with a policeman and disobeying a lawful order.
It did involve name calling and heckling while officers were trying to gain control of a crowd that was acting innapropiately in public and endangering property and person.
IF--and it didn't--it was in a park, and not on a busy street that was dangerous from the snow, much less from being whacked by a snowball and loosing control of a vehicle--it may have been OK.
I think the officer/officers was/were correct to try and gain control of a very possible dangerous situation.
Those kids were not thinking very well and reacting in a uncontrolled manner.
The gun out was not a big deal. His arresting of one of the crowd was understandable under the circumstances.
OR
I disagree that it was just a casual snowball fight.
Blessings

Sounds like a rally call for new legislation that would make snowballs illegal and it would allow the police to use deadly force in cirtain circumstances. Do you have any recommendations on minimum jail time for those who make snowballs and would they be held in a minimum or maximum security prison?

[Skunk]

I was sort of siding with the young adults (I saw no little kids) at first, at least until they started in with the F%&#ing Pig language. Then my thoughts turned to F%&#ing Punks.

[williamlayton]

There is enough legislation on the books.
If an officer of the law deems a situation to warrant a cease and desist order---and nobody obeys--then it becomes a misdomenor and a ticket---if it causes bodily injury or a wreck it can escalate to a felony.
Yoy got to use sense---your freedom ends where someone elses nose begins-or- a windshield, as the case may be.
I can undestand the exhuberance of the moment and the intent by the young adults to just have fun.
Remember what the cop told you---"If you want to race, go to the race track."
You are not allowed to do whatever you want when it involves the public and public safety. No matter the intent.
Blessings

[Cabin4]

There is enough legislation on the books.
If an officer of the law deems a situation to warrant a cease and desist order---and nobody obeys--then it becomes a misdomenor and a ticket---if it causes bodily injury or a wreck it can escalate to a felony.
Yoy got to use sense---your freedom ends where someone elses nose begins-or- a windshield, as the case may be.
I can undestand the exhuberance of the moment and the intent by the young adults to just have fun.
Remember what the cop told you---"If you want to race, go to the race track."
You are not allowed to do whatever you want when it involves the public and public safety. No matter the intent.
Blessings

Rediculous William. There is nothing deadly about a snowball fight. There's no "freedom" at stake here for anyone due to a snowball fight!

Pulling a gun becasue someone threw a snowball at you is just a plain ol dumb arse move. I'm curiuos how you would feel if you happen to be a viewing by stander or someone you knew was in on the snowball fight? Lets say your son/daughter was there throwing snowballs, this stupid cop shows up and starts shooting based on your described reasons above!

Do you, really, truely beleive that deadly force is warranted and the potential perhipheral casulaties to the surrounding crowd are justified becasue of snowball throwing? Your just fine with people being killed over this? Even if one of them may be yourself or someone you know? All over Snowball Throwing.....

[pmeisel]

Government is the obvious answer to every problem.  It's not just snowballs, it's the snow!

Let's declare a war on snow, just like the war on drugs... we'll hire some former general or political hack to run it, saving him from having to live on his pension....and we'll create a new agency just like ATF to catch snow smugglers. 

Or, we could just burn as much carbon fuel as possible to hasten the warming of the earth....

Some people were having fun, maybe a little too exuberant, and somebody who should know better took himself too seriously.  if he thought there was a hazard there he could have just called it in and let the uniforms handle it....

[Dee]

William I get your point. Cabin does not. He cannot get past the mistake of pulling the gun. It should not have been pulled, but the fact is, it was not used.
A sidewalk and busy intersection "where any and everyone" is a target, is not the place for a large rowdy snowball fight.
In Texas it would be deemed Disorderly Conduct on the participants should someone choose to file.

[Dee]

Some people were having fun, maybe a little too exuberant, and somebody who should know better took himself too seriously.  if he thought there was a hazard there he could have just called it in and let the uniforms handle it....

I agree with this much of you thought, with the exception that LOCATION has a lot to do with whether it was fun, or potentially dangerous.

[Sourdough]

I watched the video.  My openion, the cop should have left it to the uniforms, and left.  The fact he did not and after watching him walk into the crowd and threatening the people.  He kept daring them to do something, "throw another snowball", he was trying to escalate the situation.  That was wrong on his part, he not being in uniform should have left the scene

[Dee]

I watched the video.  My openion, the cop should have left it to the uniforms, and left.  The fact he did not and after watching him walk into the crowd and threatening the people.  He kept daring them to do something, "throw another snowball", he was trying to escalate the situation.  That was wrong on his part, he not being in uniform should have left the scene

Soudough, with that I agree entirely. He handled it very badly, and made a not so good situation much worse, and made himself look even worse.

[gypsyman]

My kids were in a snowball fight yesterday. I could care less how many they threw at each other. But you have to understand that they were behind the house, 3 or 4 hundred yards from the road. If they get in the front yard, they better be throwing at each other or a tree. If I ever catch them throwing at a car, any car, their butts will be warm enough to melt snow. It's not uncommon for a person to lose control of a vehicle because of something of this nature. In a situation were the officer was at, somebody losing control and running into people on the sidewalk, would not have been such a neat thing. A little common sense goes along way. Unfortunately, the officer didn't use any either. gypsyman

[Graybeard]

No argument they really shouldn't have thrown one at the car. Can any of you HONESTLY say you NEVER did that? Yeah right. 

The cop was OFF DUTY in his own personal vehicle. He stopped IN THE STREET blocking it for other traffic for an extended period. He should be ticketed for that as a minimum. You or I would have been. He pulled a gun cuz a few youths were tossing snowballs. Had a civilian done so especially in that city he'd be in jail still trying to figure out how to get out. Same should apply to the off duty cop.

I realize some here are cops or former cops but cops aren't GOD and not all are good ones. The actions of some like this thug is why the reputation of cops in generally is dropping like a rock same as that of politicians. In my opinion taking up for the bad ones is no different than what so many here complain that muzlims do by not decrying the actions of the bad actors among them. Yet some here jump on board taking up for any and every cop no matter what they do just cuz they are a cop. Sorry that badge is not a license to break the law they must be bound by the same laws as the rest of us. I've had such rogues try to harrass me as well. He knew he was wrong just as this one knew he was wrong. Luckily for us both he wound up backing off else it could have ended with one or both of us dead. I was armed same as he was. He wanted to be a bully but apparently wasn't brave enough to stand toe to toe with no back up near by. I hate bullies cops or not and I hate folks who think a badge gives them a license to do any damn thing they please with no regard to the law.

If police want respect they must earn it same as anyone else. That badge does not automatically give it to them nor should it.

[Cabin4]

William I get your point. Cabin does not. He cannot get past the mistake of pulling the gun. It should not have been pulled, but the fact is, it was not used.
A sidewalk and busy intersection "where any and everyone" is a target, is not the place for a large rowdy snowball fight.
In Texas it would be deemed Disorderly Conduct on the participants should someone choose to file.

I get his point Dee. It's just that Williams point, to me,  seems to be a significant stretch in this case. I don't recommend anyone throw snowballs at cars (although I did it myself as a young punk). I don't see anything that rises to disorderly conduct in this video. Yes, the event got carried away a bit and I don't even have a problem if the cops would have said enough, everyone leave. But this should be the work of uniformed cops not an off-duty cop or undercover detective. The cop should simply have called the local police and kept driving his Hummer.

[nw_hunter]

I watched the video.  My openion, the cop should have left it to the uniforms, and left.  The fact he did not and after watching him walk into the crowd and threatening the people.  He kept daring them to do something, "throw another snowball", he was trying to escalate the situation.  That was wrong on his part, he not being in uniform should have left the scene

Soudough, with that I agree entirely. He handled it very badly, and made a not so good situation much worse, and made himself look even worse.

Cop handled it badly! He should have got out of the Hummer, and thrown a few himself, and in a light heart ed manner, told the kids to keep it off the street, and keep it safe.

His Cap. should chew him out, tell him to keep his gun in the holster until he needs to shoot a bad guy, and all go eat turkey and dressing.............Merry Christmas all!

[Dee]

William I get your point. Cabin does not. He cannot get past the mistake of pulling the gun. It should not have been pulled, but the fact is, it was not used.
A sidewalk and busy intersection "where any and everyone" is a target, is not the place for a large rowdy snowball fight.
In Texas it would be deemed Disorderly Conduct on the participants should someone choose to file.

I get his point Dee. It's just that Williams point, to me,  seems to be a significant stretch in this case. I don't recommend anyone throw snowballs at cars (although I did it myself as a young punk). I don't see anything that rises to disorderly conduct in this video. Yes, the event got carried away a bit and I don't even have a problem if the cops would have said enough, everyone leave. But this should be the work of uniformed cops not an off-duty cop or undercover detective. The cop should simply have called the local police and kept driving his Hummer.

I think I already said all that, and we are in agreement with the cop's actions. You threw snowballs at cars, we all did. BUT! This was a busy intersection, with lots of cars, and lots of pedestrians. Throwing snowballs at UNKNOWN CARS is a bad idea anywhere, but with that much activity it makes it worse. That's the point whether anyone does or doesn't like cops.

[Dee]

No argument they really shouldn't have thrown one at the car. Can any of you HONESTLY say you NEVER did that? Yeah right. 

The cop was OFF DUTY in his own personal vehicle. He stopped IN THE STREET blocking it for other traffic for an extended period. He should be ticketed for that as a minimum. You or I would have been. He pulled a gun cuz a few youths were tossing snowballs. Had a civilian done so especially in that city he'd be in jail still trying to figure out how to get out. Same should apply to the off duty cop.

I realize some here are cops or former cops but cops aren't GOD and not all are good ones. The actions of some like this thug is why the reputation of cops in generally is dropping like a rock same as that of politicians. In my opinion taking up for the bad ones is no different than what so many here complain that muzlims do by not decrying the actions of the bad actors among them. Yet some here jump on board taking up for any and every cop no matter what they do just cuz they are a cop. Sorry that badge is not a license to break the law they must be bound by the same laws as the rest of us. I've had such rogues try to harrass me as well. He knew he was wrong just as this one knew he was wrong. Luckily for us both he wound up backing off else it could have ended with one or both of us dead. I was armed same as he was. He wanted to be a bully but apparently wasn't brave enough to stand toe to toe with no back up near by. I hate bullies cops or not and I hate folks who think a badge gives them a license to do any damn thing they please with no regard to the law.

If police want respect they must earn it same as anyone else. That badge does not automatically give it to them nor should it.

Bill I don't think many here are defending the cop drawing his gun, and I for one agreed with someone else he should have let the uniforms deal with it. Whether YOU threw snowballs, or "I" threw snowballs at cars when we were kids, or it was YESTERDAY, it shouldn't have been done. IT'S WRONG! to throw snowballs at others whom are NOT IN THE FIGHT, and don't want to PLAY.
With a busy intersection and lots of pedestrians, can you honestly say that it was not dangerous to have a huge snowball fight in such an environment, with anyone, and anything, a target whether they or it wanted to be?
And hating people is not on my agenda regardless of what they do. There are some folks I have little use for, but I don't hate them.
Also if police want respect they must act respectful, and with that we are in full agreement. HOWEVER! If you want the police to respect YOU, then shouldn't YOU act respectful. Wouldn't you agree?

[Graybeard]

I went back and watched it again. The intersection did NOT look all that busy to me and I'm a small town guy. More vehicles that that move thru most intersections in any small town in this areaa in that same amount of time. They appeared to be moving at around 5 mph due to the road having several inches of snow on it.

Sorry I just see no hazard and if the world has gotten to the point a bunch of youths can't throw snowballs without this much hassle then it's time the world changes back again.

The off duty cop parking in the middle of the road blocking it was ten times the hazard the kids presented. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Dee]

GB, I don't think we disagree on the cops conduct. I am in full agreement with you he showed his ass. I just got home from checking the service roads on US75 for stranded motorists. We are having one hell of a snow storm with high winds.
It is my practice that in this kind of weather, if I am home every hour or so, I run the service roads. If someone is off in the ditch I pull them out with my Jeep, and charge them NOTHING. I have a very well equipped Jeep and I try to give something back to folks trying to get home.
I saw a couple of patrol cars sitting at the local coffee stop, and went in to tell them if THEY got stuck to call the house and I would come and get them out. They know me, and the one said ok. The SGT. whom takes himself way too seriously told me as long as I didn't tear anything up pulling folks out of the ditch he didn't have a problem with it. LIKE IT MATTERED WHAT HE THOUGHT.
I let it go. He is a full time ass, and if I want to help someone he can't stop me if they want the help. There are good people and asses. REGARDLESS how their dressed.
I think the only thing we disagree on is the location of the snowball fight. If they want to have a free for all snowball fight they should keep among themselves in an area where there won't be any chance of someone getting hit that doesn't want to be hit. A snowball CAN put an eye out if someone isn't looking. Common sense will tell anyone that. One has the right to wave his fist over his head in this country in protest or jubilation, AS LONG AS HE DOESN'T HIT ANYONE WITH IT.

[Skunk]

The gun waving Policeman, Det. Mike Baylor, has been placed on desk duty pending further investigation of the incident.

WASHINGTON - D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier criticized a veteran detective Monday for pulling a gun during a mass snowball fight.

D.C. Police Det. Mike Baylor - a 28-year veteran of the force - has been placed on desk duty while authorities investigate the incident.

Here's the entire report:

http://wtop.com/?nid=596&sid=1845581

[williamlayton]

Well, it is good conversation.
I thought the cop was exhuberant and out of line but the gun was not brandished in a threating manner, IMO.
Yes the snowball fight was in an inappropriate area.
I never threw a snowball at a  car--course there was about 4 times, growing up, that I would have hade the opportunity.
Blessings
 

[beerbelly]

Cops think everything that comes out of their mouth is a lawful order! NOT! They are cops not god! And they wonder why the public has no use fo them.
                                             Beerbelly

[thxmrgarand]

I watched the video.  My first thought was that here is a cop who should not be a cop and possibly would not be a cop but for affirmative action.  That may be an unfair analysis but so long as affirmative action exists it has to be a consideration in every instance where a negro has a position of responsibility.  After all, we all know that police promotions are often based upon racial quota but who among us would like to see that same affirmative action mentality (not to mention law) applied to airline pilots?

My next thought was that better cops would have used the situation as an opportunity to build community support.  What if the cops had instead spent a few minutes exchanging snowballs with the people throwing snowballs, showing that cops are real people?

Instead, the cop in the SUV dared the crowd to throw another snowball while he held a gun! Just the other day I inadvertently walked between two teenagers having a snowball fight and a snowball hit me.  The fellow who threw it started to apologize and I laughed and told him to forget it.  I am sure I likely had a S&W Model 60 in my pocket at the time but pulling it out over a snowball would have been no more likely than having a Martian land in the street.

My final thought is that Washington, DC is enemy territory for rural white people such as myself.  I work there sometimes and I firmly hold that belief.  So I probably do not understand the city, its police force, its crowds or what people will do if their car is hit by a snowball.

[williamlayton]

Watch the video closely---there are two othe uniforms with guns out.
The uniforms were apparentlty notified by the detective--see him on his radio.
The police lost their cool---and they cannot afford to do this.
The crowd was in a heckling mood and taunted the police. The young man in the mask would have been under arrest, if it were me, from moment one--when he would not move out of the street.
It was a pretty scary scene when the police arrived.
Cabin has a point---if it was out in the country---not in a city, no matter his arguement about rights---the crowd had forfieted their rights when they involved the public which did not want to be involved.
I will bet that he would not have been so inclined to be so lenient if he were there and in uniform. JUST imo.
Blessings

[torpedoman]

  The latest disgrace here is one was off duty driving drunk did a hit and run accident and the chief fired him after his court case were he was found guilty now his lawyer is suing because he was fired for a "disability" wonder what disability compels you to drive drunk and not stop after an accident?

[Cabin4]

Watch the video closely---there are two othe uniforms with guns out.
The uniforms were apparentlty notified by the detective--see him on his radio.

If you  listen to the entire audio with the video, you will learn that the uniform cops had thier guns drawn because the report they were given was there was a man with a gun. They were not 100% certain it was an off duty cop. There guns were drawn for a differant reason than the off duty terd cop. The unifrom cops are on the video critisizing the off-duty terd for drawing his weapon.

[williamlayton]

Cabin
I recognize the failures of the officer.
I also recognize the failures of the public---something you seem to disrerard.
That situation could have gotten out of hand real quickly and seems to me that it was headed that way.
It was loose--loose for the cops. They get crticized for being pro-active or scalded for letting it get out of hand.
Blessings

[beerbelly]

The public is sick and tired of being run over by cops! And cops are getting their heads blown off left and right, I think it will get a lot worse. You can only bulldog the people so long, and they get fed up. We have had one killed and two more shot in this area lately. If they are looking for sympathy from me , forget it.
                                                                  Beerbelly

[williamlayton]

Sympathy??
How about solid thinking?
Blessings

[Dee]

Well William I'll tell ya. I spent 20 years in a job where not many were glad to see ya when ya showed up, unless of course they were on the bottom of the fight, and then they whined about what took ya so long.  I never needed their sympathy, and didn't expect it anyway.
The complainers are the ones that leave the keys in their vehicle and wonder where the cop was when the thief stole it. They don't put good locks on their doors, and put their guns in gun cases on display, and complain why the cops can't find their property.
This public that beerbelly is speaking of, is the public that gets caught DWI, and public drunk, and stuff like that. You aren't going to get anything positive out of anyone, that has ever been arrested for something they DID, or got a ticket for something they DID. Only criticism.
If it weren't for that "thin blue line" there would be chaos in the streets, and it would be anarchy pretty quick. I take it with a grain of salt and let it go. I spent a long time on the streets and it's considerably different than what most believe. I have the luxury now of knowing I don't have to as a general rule deal with those folks anymore.
The detective screwed up, no doubt about it. So for beerbelly their ALL screw ups. I'll bet he's met more than his share of cops. Next time he has trouble he should call one of his drinkin buddies.
Their mind is so narrow on the subject they couldn't begin to imagine anyway. I think all has been said on this thread that can be said from both sides. The rest is redundantry.

 

[Cabin4]

William,

The public fails all the time at all sorts of endeavors and I do recognize their failures in this particular case. The point being debated here, is do those failures (in this case) rise to the level that justifies a cop drawing his weapon? The answer on this point is clearly no. Why the need to expand this from the specific to esoteric comparisons about some other undefined public failures, that could justify a cop drawing his weapon is, perhaps, were I'm getting lost in this thread.

If your point is, there could be a case when drawing a weapon is justified.... I think, based on that broad a scenario, you will find strong consensus, including from me that a cop drawing his weapon is of course justified under certain scenarios. That’s why I agree they should have a gun.

In an earlier post Dee thought I was missing your point. Perhaps I was. Dee also thought that no matter what, some folks just hate cops. Well, I'm not one of those folks but I do think there are a lot of cops that hate the public, have horrible personal interaction skills and that are over baring & egotistical. These cops should not be cops any more than a convicted felon should be reviewing their annual performance......

[beerbelly]

I am 70 years old and it has Been 30 OR 35 years since I have had a cop speak to me in a civil tone! The last time one did they were peace officers, not LEO's. They wore police uniforms, not storm trooper combat uniforms and they had a whole different attitude than they do now.
     Back then they thought they worked for the public, not the lord and master of the public. I got stopped the other day, a little 21 year old state trooper did not like the way I made a left turn. He got out of the car yelling at me. So I yelled back. That is when he tells "you don't yell at me". I said why not , you are yelling at me. No I did not get a ticket. I think he just did not want to waste the time on it, as I told I would appeal it all the way to a jury trial.
   I am suppose to respect that  dude! NO!
                                                      Beerbelly