8mm vs. 338 federal

[Drilling Man]

Mmmm, sorta difficult to explain but try it like this.
Let's say I have 2 little pipes......one about the diameter of a straw and the other the size of a golfball.
Now, if I take a big deep breath, fill my lungs and then blow it will take much longer to empty them if I blow through the straw than if I blow through the golfball sized hole, right?
Now imagine you then find 2 pieces of wood the same weight than are the diameter of the pipes and sorta lodge them in so you can blow them out.
You'll find you run out of breath far more quickly with the golfball sized one than the straw size.
So lets now increase the mass of the golfball diameter timber so it exits at the same speed as the straw sized piece.
You'll find that a large diameter bore can push heavier projectiles at the same speed as a small bore pushes light ones.
The best way of examining this is to look at the available wildcats in the '06 family.
Start with 30-06 and look at 338-06 and 35 Whelen.
A good common bullet mass is 200gr.
Check out the increased velocity:

• The 30-06 can push a 200gr to 2580fps with 53.7gr of 4350.
• The 338-06 can push it to 2729fps with 62gr of 4350.
• The 35 Whelen can push it to 2807fps with 63gr of BL-C(2).

Now, there are other factors....there ALWAYS are.
Some people here will swear their 338-06 can punch them out over 2800fps which is true but that is using well over 60,000 PSI.
But when it comes down to it a larger hole and same weight pill equals a faster possible MV.
For the record this is why the 8x57 with a smaller case but similar pressure can toe up to the 30-06 with reasonable hope of success.
In the world of ballistics even 15 thou counts.
Same gap between the 8x57 and the 338 Fed.
Ironically it's also 6mm difference in case length between the 338 Fed and the 8x57 and 6mm between then 8x57 and the '06.

  HUH??  Now i'm confused!!   

  In simple english:  Gun powder doesn't all burn up in the case, it's still burning in the bbl., and the gasses are also expanding in that bbl.  When you have a larger bore, you have more room for those gasses to expand before you reach max safe psi.  SO, you can add a bit more powder to take advantage of this.

  For instance, take the .308 Win. case at 30 cal.  When you open the bore up to .338 you can use more powder because the bore is bigger for the gasses to expand in.  Going to .358 allows you to use even more powder...

  The above is a very simple way to put it so it's easily understandable, and yes there's much more to what actually happens...

  DM

[yooper77]

Mmmm, sorta difficult to explain but try it like this.
Let's say I have 2 little pipes......one about the diameter of a straw and the other the size of a golfball.
Now, if I take a big deep breath, fill my lungs and then blow it will take much longer to empty them if I blow through the straw than if I blow through the golfball sized hole, right?
Now imagine you then find 2 pieces of wood the same weight than are the diameter of the pipes and sorta lodge them in so you can blow them out.
You'll find you run out of breath far more quickly with the golfball sized one than the straw size.
So lets now increase the mass of the golfball diameter timber so it exits at the same speed as the straw sized piece.
You'll find that a large diameter bore can push heavier projectiles at the same speed as a small bore pushes light ones.
The best way of examining this is to look at the available wildcats in the '06 family.
Start with 30-06 and look at 338-06 and 35 Whelen.
A good common bullet mass is 200gr.
Check out the increased velocity:

• The 30-06 can push a 200gr to 2580fps with 53.7gr of 4350.
• The 338-06 can push it to 2729fps with 62gr of 4350.
• The 35 Whelen can push it to 2807fps with 63gr of BL-C(2).

Now, there are other factors....there ALWAYS are.
Some people here will swear their 338-06 can punch them out over 2800fps which is true but that is using well over 60,000 PSI.
But when it comes down to it a larger hole and same weight pill equals a faster possible MV.
For the record this is why the 8x57 with a smaller case but similar pressure can toe up to the 30-06 with reasonable hope of success.
In the world of ballistics even 15 thou counts.
Same gap between the 8x57 and the 338 Fed.
Ironically it's also 6mm difference in case length between the 338 Fed and the 8x57 and 6mm between then 8x57 and the '06.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Loads here are using 200 grain bullet and 24” barrels.
30-06 Springfield
   59.0 grains of H4831 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2586 FPS
      Hodgdon doesn’t list BL-C (2), so I picked there fastest load for the 200 grain bullet.

338-06
   59.5 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2856 FPS

Yes the load is 62.300 PSI, but it’s a safe load from the manufacture if your work your loads up slowing as with any reloading.

I use 52.0 grains of IMR-4320 with 200 grain bullet in my 338-06 A-Square which is below 2700 FPS, but is perfect medicine for big game.
 
35 Whelen
   63. O grains of H4831 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2807 FPS

yooper77

[Drilling Man]

  And in my Nosler book, it shows the 30-06 with the 200NP over a max charge of RL22 going 2,688fps.  The 200 grain in the .338-06 A-Square goes 2,690 with a max load of IMR4320.  And the Whelen goes 2,525 with the 225NP over a max load of RL15.

  Another load book will show something different again!

  DM

[kombi1976]

My point was that with similar pressures a larger bore can push a projectile of the same mass faster.
I'm not talking about safe loads.

[yooper77]

My point was that with similar pressures a larger bore can push a projectile of the same mass faster.
I'm not talking about safe loads.

Yes, I know what you were trying to do, but it doesn’t hold as a blanket truth.

Another example from the actual powder (Hodgdon) manufacture using 180 grain bullets.

30-06 Springfield
   57.5 grains of H4350 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2798 FPS @ 49,300 CUP
   48.5 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2634 FPS @ 48,100 CUP

338-06
   62.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3012 FPS @ 59,400 PSI

35 Whelen
   65.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2860 FPS @ 48,500 CUP
   63.0 grains of H335 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2870 FPS @ 50,000 CUP

All loads above are operating within the SAAMI standards, which makes an important point being these are all safe loads.

This part is pretty cool and one of the reasons I went with the 338-06 A-Square instead of a magnum.  It gets pretty close, but with a larger diameter bullet.

Loads below are 24" barrels and 180 grain bullets.

300 Winchester Magnum
   81.0 grains of H1000 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3042 FPS @ 52,900 CUP

300 Weatherby Magnum
   81.0 grains of Hybrid 100V (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3171 FPS @ 54,600 CUP

yooper77

[cwlongshot]

My point was that with similar pressures a larger bore can push a projectile of the same mass faster.
I'm not talking about safe loads.

Yes, I know what you were trying to do, but it doesn’t hold as a blanket truth.

Another example from the actual powder (Hodgdon) manufacture using 180 grain bullets.

30-06 Springfield
   57.5 grains of H4350 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2798 FPS @ 49,300 CUP
   48.5 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2634 FPS @ 48,100 CUP

338-06
   62.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3012 FPS @ 59,400 PSI

35 Whelen
   65.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2860 FPS @ 48,500 CUP
   63.0 grains of H335 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2870 FPS @ 50,000 CUP

All loads above are operating within the SAAMI standards, which makes an important point being these are all safe loads.

yooper 77

Yopper,
Even these posted findings are suspect, if you look deep enough...

 What was the barrel length, what was the ambient temperature, what was the altitude, what was the humidity rate....

I dont post this to stir the pot, or to add my argument into the foray. But simply if one wishes, unless one person actually makes up the loads, shoots the rifles and records the data, it will be suspect to at least as many possible variables...

CW

[quickdtoo]

My point was that with similar pressures a larger bore can push a projectile of the same mass faster.
I'm not talking about safe loads.

Yes, I know what you were trying to do, but it doesn’t hold as a blanket truth.

Another example from the actual powder (Hodgdon) manufacture using 180 grain bullets.

30-06 Springfield
   57.5 grains of H4350 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2798 FPS @ 49,300 CUP
   48.5 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2634 FPS @ 48,100 CUP

338-06
   62.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3012 FPS @ 59,400 PSI

35 Whelen
   65.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2860 FPS @ 48,500 CUP
   63.0 grains of H335 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2870 FPS @ 50,000 CUP

All loads above are operating within the SAAMI standards, which makes an important point being these are all safe loads.

yooper 77

Yopper,
Even these posted findings are suspect, if you look deep enough...

 What was the barrel length, what was the ambient temperature, what was the altitude, what was the humidity rate....

I dont post this to stir the pot, or to add my argument into the foray. But simply if one wishes, unless one person actually makes up the loads, shoots the rifles and records the data, it will be suspect to at least as many possible variables...

CW

All of the data on those three chamberings was done in 24" barrels, barrel length isn't listed online, but it is in the Hodgdon Annual which matches the online data. 

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[yooper77]

My point was that with similar pressures a larger bore can push a projectile of the same mass faster.
I'm not talking about safe loads.

Yes, I know what you were trying to do, but it doesn’t hold as a blanket truth.

Another example from the actual powder (Hodgdon) manufacture using 180 grain bullets.

30-06 Springfield
   57.5 grains of H4350 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2798 FPS @ 49,300 CUP
   48.5 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2634 FPS @ 48,100 CUP

338-06
   62.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 3012 FPS @ 59,400 PSI

35 Whelen
   65.0 grains of BL-C (2) (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2860 FPS @ 48,500 CUP
   63.0 grains of H335 (Hodgdon’s MAX LOAD!) delivers 2870 FPS @ 50,000 CUP

All loads above are operating within the SAAMI standards, which makes an important point being these are all safe loads.

yooper 77

Yopper,
Even these posted findings are suspect, if you look deep enough...

 What was the barrel length, what was the ambient temperature, what was the altitude, what was the humidity rate....

I dont post this to stir the pot, or to add my argument into the foray. But simply if one wishes, unless one person actually makes up the loads, shoots the rifles and records the data, it will be suspect to at least as many possible variables...

CW

You are not stirring the pot, this is the reason for forum discussions.  As a long time reloader I know there are lots of possible variables.  I never reload for maximum velocity, but for accuracy only.

People desire variety that’s why there are so many available cartridges.  I like what I like and others can like or dislike them no matter to me.  That’s what makes things great everyone is free to have their own choices.

Yes all 24 inch listed above barrel lengths are available online from http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp just need to select the print version when you have the data on the screen.

As for the ambient temperature, altitude, and humidity rate specifications you requested, please contact Hodgdon since it’s their site and they are the powder manufacture.

yooper77

[Drilling Man]

  Since my first .338-06 i had made up in the 70's by P.O. Ackley, i've had three different .338-06's.  I've fired close to 2,000 rounds in those rifles, and i've NEVER found a load with a 200 grain or heavier bullet that would even approach 3,000 fps over any of the chrono's i've owned.  AND yes i've tried!!

  In fact, i've noticed in all three, that 250 grain bullets are more efficient and give move velocity for powder used, plus the 250's performed better on the bigger game i hunted.

  DM

[kombi1976]

Mmmm, me thinks we have strayed a little from the original question.
Would it not be a reasonable statement to say that the larger bore and the slightly higher pressure that the 338 Fed is loaded too allows it to match 8x57?

[Sweetwater]

Mmmm, me thinks we have strayed a little from the original question.
Would it not be a reasonable statement to say that the larger bore and the slightly higher pressure that the 338 Fed is loaded too allows it to match 8x57?

Fair enough statement. Probably about as much as whatever gets shot with one won't know which one and will still be in the freezer, provided the shot was good; totally regardless of which one is matching which one.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[45-70.gov]

what i was getting at    is i have a hole in the gun battery  between .323 and .458    i think i want someting to fill this gap   i have nothing that will launch a 200-300 gr bullet     i was thinking a 35 of some flavor or a 38  but i have no idea what to look at      and i do not want or need one of those maked out anti-aircraft shoulder cannons with 900 ft lbs of recoil  i just want to fill the hole and if in the future i am lucky enough to hunt something like the big bears     then i will have the right gun   and if it happens to be used on a deer before that   well all the better

375 RUGER.....and  down  load  it  when  you don't need  THAT  much
much like you  down load  the 45-70  from its  full potential

338 win mag  or
35 whellen

or just push  the limits  of  your  8mm  you have

[Graybeard]

Since there is no longer any discussion going on of the subject rounds this thread has obviously run its course. 

[Cheesehead]

You need a 375 Magnum. You can go any place in the world with one of these.

Cheese