Paper Patching, can you

[Jacko]

tell me of your experience's with it thanks. I shoot a .357mag Rossi and a .44 mag 1894 Marlin and currently am using hardcast commercial coated bullets. I'm happy with how they shoot in my rifles but I am always looking to add another dimention to my handloading. I have a mould and handles for the .357 but its a semiwadcutter mould , won't feed in the Rossi but I'll buy a mould soon, a casting ladel and a .44 mould to start casting my own and figure while I'm at it may as well look into the correct moulds dies etc for paper patching, seems like a great way to coax a little more velocity and perhaps gain a little accuracy over the hardcasts not to mention learning a lot as I go.

Got the missus convinced I need a Buffalo rifle, a single shot 45.70 seems like a good candidate for paper patching but thats latter in the year so I'd love to hit the ground running on this one with all the info I can gleam from a variety of sources on the Lever actions

regards Jacko

[Nobade]

So far I have only tried paper patching on high velocity smalllbore rifles. (375 and under) I have been able to get good results with bullets as soft as air cooled wheelweights up to mild jacketed bullet levels. I have not been able to equal the accuracy of jacketed bullets, nor properly done grease groove bullet loads but have gotten results plenty good enough to hunt and practice with. It has taken a long time to get there. I've been at it for a little more than a year now, and still have a lot to learn. The equipment you need is minimal - start with normal bullet moulds, and two push through sizers - one a couple thou over bore size, and the other a little over groove size. Cast bullets soft, push through the bore size die, patch, and size to over groove size. Then treat them as jacketed bullets and load 'em up. There are a thousand little details you will need to keep in mind along the way, but that's the simple rundown. The beauty of it is you don't need a lubrisizer or gaschecks, just some simple tools but those tools need to be used properly. Probably the best resource for paper patch bullets and smokeless powder right now is over on cast boolits forum, lots of guys are there. And the techniques of using PP with black powder are very different than smokeless, so you have that to sort out too. Have fun, don't get discouraged if you can't hit the berm with your first attempts, keep at it and you'll learn how to make it work.  BTW, I'm building a 358 win. just for paper patch shooting, soon we'll see how that works.

[jpuke]

All my valuable experience has been with a 45-70 Ruger No. 1.  I cast bullets from an RCBS 405 grain mold using pure lead.  Patched with 9 lb onionskin, lubricated with Paul Matthews' lube and loaded over IMR 3031 I get 2" groups using a 2.5x scope.  I'm sure I'd get better groups with a higher magnified scope, but it's what I use for hunting.  I was telling my wife this year about how "boring" the deer hunting has gotten.  One shot per deer, perfect straightline penetration, expansion to 1" with almost no weight loss (tested in water, I never recovered anything from the deer), dead deer after short runs with no meat damage.  I've shot three deer with this load in the last two years. 

I ran out of 3031 this fall when working up my loads and found that I got horrible groups when I switched to 4198 and used bullets that weren't pure lead.  I imagine the change in pressures screwed things up.  I quickly bought some 3031 and went back to the previous load with no problems.  Components matter for paper patched bullets, same as they do for other reloads.

I've also paper-patched revolver loads for a 45 Colt and for a 30-06.  I didn't make any real record of these, they didn't keep my interest.  I'm thinking of going back to the 30-06 just to mix things up for the 2010 deer season.

[Jacko]

Thanks for the reply's fella's, intriguing business this paper patching. Still in the early stages of getting my casting gear and correct sizing dies. I've tracked down a local mould supplier which will work out a little more expensive than importing moulds. I've slugged the bores of my rifles

.350 bore dia / 357 groove dia for the .357 Rossi - strange? I slugged the bore 3 times as I did not believe the first result, same each time!

.426 bore dia / .429 groove diameter for the Marlin .44 mag - lotsa folks doomsdayed the new Marlin would have an oversize bore, once again triple checked!

I tried my hand at wrapping a handfull of commercial hardcast bullets just to get a feel for it using baking paper. I did not wet the patch and am surprised that after 4 days of sitting on the benchtop the dry rolled patches have not loosened any.

Big ticket item will be a decent bench mounted press as I use a Lee hand press for my reloading just now. I'll keep chipping away untl I got all my gear, looking forward to the challenges

regards Jacko

[jpuke]

I started reloading in 2001 and haven't used anything but my Lee hand press, just can't bring myself to spend the money on a new press rather than more powder/primers/etc. 

[Jacko]

I'm happy with the hand press for general reloading duty just don't think it's the right tool for resizing pp cast bullets.

regards Jacko

[goofyoldfart]

Jacko : you might want to try a very inexpensive Lee Challenger press for loading ppcboo's. one of the critical things in loading paper patch is to keep it as straight in line as you can to the neck. also a veeerrry light crimp, so as not to tear the patch on firing. Good luck. God Bless,all.

[goofyoldfart]

BUMPITY- BUMP BUMP: well it's been one year and eight days and no one has posted. So I thought I would bump it. So--Jacko, what was your experience on the presses? Maybe I should check back next year . God Bless to all.



                                              Goofyoldfart.

[Nobade]

Since you're going to bump this, I'll add my 2 cents. I have tried paper patching for 357 mag now, and lots of others. In a Browning B92 I can drive pure lead bullets paper patched to very high speeds using Lil' Gun and get very good accuracy. This would be quite effective for hunting, since there is no way you could do this even with a gas check and not lead the barrel. 190gr. bullets at 1800 fps and groups around 4 inches at 200M with the barrel sights. So, my conclusion is paper patching works quite well in 357 rifles!

(Using the Ranch Dog bullet, 9lb. onionskin paper wet wrapped, lubed with paste wax after drying and run through a Lee .359 push through sizer.)

[goofyoldfart]

Nobade: sounds like you have hit the perfect balance. Great for you. now all I have to do is try Offshore44's trick on making push through sizers out of 7/8 x 14 bolts and then get my old girl shooting (yugo M 48). Hey, don't we have to BUMP old threads to keep the interest going? God Bless to all.

[Nobade]

No need to make a sizer for the M48; Lee makes a .323" and a .329" already. For the price they charge it's not worth making one.

[StrawHat]

Paper patching for the 45-70 is fairly easy.  The hard part is figuring out loads, diameters etc.
 
Anyway, here is a place to look for info
 
For Black powder loads
 
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?s=7dae51afa2d30b0f84227cd31ea25d50&f=38
 
For smokeless loads
 
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?s=7dae51afa2d30b0f84227cd31ea25d50&f=62
 
Lots of info to glean from the posts on that site.  These guys and gals know their stuff.  Unfortunately, weeding through all of it is time consuming.
 
There are also a couple of good books available.  "The Paper Jacketed Bullet" by Paul Matthews is one and "Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets by R. Wright is another.  There are more available.
 
I paper patch for a rolling block 45-70 and a trapdoor in 45-70.  Also a 50-70 trapdoor, which is fast becoming my favorite cartridge.  Good luck and let us know what works for you.

[goofyoldfart]

No need to make a sizer for the M48; Lee makes a .323" and a .329" already. For the price they charge it's not worth making one.

Nobade: I was aware that Lee made them. BUT-----I like to tinker (and I am a poor' boy on Social Security ) so I am going to try the system that one of the others on here did (think it was Leadpot--not sure) and use #8 grade 7/8 X 14 bolts and drill with a drill press and hand ream and polish to the proper diameter. I was an "A" rate, precision millwright for 25 years and have cobbled together some interesting toys Plus, I have all the tools. All else fails, there's LEE PRECISION! . God Bless to all.

           goofyoldfart < aka GOF and Godfrey>
 

[Nobade]

OK, that sounds like a good reason to make one! I have a big bag of 7/8-14 bolts I bought for just the same reason, and have used a couple. Here's what I learned.

 They machine like crap. It can be done, but starting with drill rod works way better. You can put a much finer finish on it quicker. 

A taper pin reamer is wonderful for cutting the lead in taper. They're just the right shape.

Make the pusher out of O1, and harden it. You want a razor sharp corner on the pusher, with less than .001" clearance between it and the bore. And relieve the body of it. Just the last .100" or so should be full diameter.

Relieve the bore of the die so you only have an inch or so past the taper for sizing. Don't try to push the bullet through the whole thing. Make sure your pusher is a touch longer than the sizing portion of the die so the bullets go all the way through in one pass.

And of course put the best finish on the hole you can. The smoother the better. Start with a hole .001" less than what you want and test it. You will likely end up with somewhere in the neighborhood of .0005" springback on the bullets. Paper patch bullets give .001" springback or a little more.

Have fun!

[goofyoldfart]

NoBade: thanks for the tips. I may be an "A" rate precision, but I've learned over the years to listen to people and use what I can. thank you for the tips. I figure that I'll start with the 7/8ths X 14 bolt so as to just get some practice . Who knows--- it might work out ok. But, I'm keeping your advice just to be on the safe side and may try it anyway just for the smooth and pretty of it. the tips on the tapers etc., are greatly appreciated . Thank you. God Bless to all.

                                    Goofy.