Author Topic: 454 Casull in 45 Colt BC (Read 3517 times)

JerryKo · « **Reply #30 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:54:44 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 27, 2009, 10:53:45 AM

Quote from: JerryKo link=topic=193223.msg 1098978499#msg 1098978499 date=1261949025
Factory Hornady 300 grain xtp do not fit in my BC carbine. But a reloaded case with 250 grain xtp fits fine. Shorter al...
Never fired it just checking and satisfying curiosity.

Jerry

The fired case came from my BFR.
A 454 factory you mean?

I tried 454's in my 45BC before cambering it and they would not fit...

CW

Ya, 454 factory 300 grain xtp's. That's what I started with, then my reloads were 250 xtp's. They did go thru the Lee fcd with a very deep crimp. Maybe the crimp is acting as if shortening the brass.? They fit.

Jerry.

I just tried some fired brass. Interesting...the hornday almost fits and is .004shorter than virgin starline brass in 454. Found a dummy 275 great xpb that is seated deeply and deep crimp that also fits. It is also in hornady brass???

cwlongshot · « **Reply #31 on:** December 27, 2009, 03:26:11 PM »

Hornady seems to playing to there own piper as far as the brass that they use in there loadings...

Ever since the 45-70 LE rounds came out and I saw that they took it upon them selves to shorten the brass to fit there needs. I have sworn off anything to do with there brass or loaded ammo. I wouldn't take it if it was given to me!!

CW

peternap · « **Reply #32 on:** December 27, 2009, 03:44:39 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 27, 2009, 03:26:11 PM

Hornady seems to playing to there own piper as far as the brass that they use in there loadings...

Ever since the 45-70 LE rounds came out and I saw that they took it upon them selves to shorten the brass to fit there needs. I have sworn off anything to do with there brass or loaded ammo. I wouldn't take it if it was given to me!!

CW

Amen!

maglvr44 · « **Reply #33 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:07:02 PM »

Quote from: frgerald on December 24, 2009, 05:03:31 PM

I have a BC in 45 LC and a 454 Puma lever gun. The 454 rounds can be dropped into the 45 BC and the breech closes with no problem??? Does this mean the 454s would work without reaming the chamber out or just that the 45 chamber is too sloppy? The gun is only 1 year old and has less than 100 rounds through it.

Chamber a round, close action, reopen action, unchamber round, remove it and look for rifling impressions in the bullet, if there are absolutely NONE WHATSOEVER, tie it to a tire with a string on the trigger, stand safely around a corner and let her rip! If no problems arise, do it twice more, if it's still in 1 piece enjoy your new .454, Just remember to check for the rifling marks everytime you try a new load/bullet combo.
In all honesty, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find the factory using reground 454 reamers they found on closeout somewhere to save 3 cents per reaming. If you're afraid to do it send the barrel to me and i'll do it, and even pay the shipping back!

MLN1963 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 28, 2009, 11:13:32 AM »

Something seems wrong that he could even chamber a 454 Casull. There is no justifiable reason to have such loose tolerances on a 45 LC chamber (known to me anyway). Sure there needs to be enough room for the varying bullet shapes/sizes but that is so the bullet doesn't get pushed into the lands and spike the pressure right? The only result from such a long chamber is more bullet deformation and poorer accuracy. Just like shooting 45 LC out of my 3" Taurus Judge.

I've always been under the impression that the only reason the Casull is .10" longer is so you can't chamber it in a 45 LC by mistake. What is the proper chamber length supposed to be for a 45LC? What is is supposed to be for a 454 Casull?

lendar · « **Reply #35 on:** December 28, 2009, 12:02:15 PM »

This kept on bothering me so I tried something. I resized my lone 454 case and then seated a 230 grain lead round nose to the normal depth of a 45 colt. It would not chamber in my 45 colt handi with the bullet. I pulled the bullet and resized the case and it would chamber no problem. So on my handi, it would take a reamer to make it work.

yukondog · « **Reply #36 on:** December 28, 2009, 12:26:01 PM »

My 357 will chamber a loaded 360 with untrimed brass and almost a 357 max but not quite.A quick ream with Tims reamer will take care of that.

poncaguy · « **Reply #37 on:** December 28, 2009, 01:58:33 PM »

My 45 Colt carbine will not lock up with a 250 or 260 grain Casull round......won't close alll the way.....

gendoc · « **Reply #38 on:** December 28, 2009, 03:00:52 PM »

my 45/410 #2 tractor gun will eat'um up with low pressure lc loads using casull brass and
6grs of 700x with a 185gr swc. and prudy dang accurate for a deep throat chamber.
much better than the lc brass. i think my grandson's benji pump has more report and recoil

got this load from a CAS guy that shoots them in a old colt saa. crony @900fps
amazing how just about 1/4" longer brass makes such a difference in accuracy and you still got a mile
to go to the lands

briannmilewis · « **Reply #39 on:** December 28, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »

Lee Reloading Manual defines the differences between 454 Casull and 45 Colt:

Casull: Rim Thickness - .052; Colt - .060
Casull: Case Diameter - .477; Colt - .480
Casull: Case Length - 1.383; Colt - 1.285
Casull: Bullet Diameter - .452; Colt - .454

Is the case length the only difference worth worrying about?

Just wondering.

P.S. What other forum could have a discussion as vigorous as this one without deteriorating into name calling or worse?

MLN1963 · « **Reply #40 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:15:32 AM »

Quote from: gendoc on December 28, 2009, 03:00:52 PM

amazing how just about 1/4" longer brass makes such a difference in accuracy and you still got a mile
to go to the lands

It's only about .10" longer, not .25" longer, but it does make a difference.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #41 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:44:31 AM »

Quote from: MLN1963 on December 29, 2009, 03:15:32 AM

It's only about .010" longer, not .025" longer, but it does make a difference.

Make that ~.100" longer, 1.383" vs 1.285".

Tim

MLN1963 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 29, 2009, 07:11:40 AM »

Damn! I knew I should have spelled it out.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

About 1/10" not 1/4"

gendoc · « **Reply #43 on:** December 29, 2009, 12:09:32 PM »

i cuda been more percise but.... i did say " just about "

my calibrated eye's been wo-out since tha 70's...

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #44 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:46:14 PM »

My 45colt BC arrived today and it won't accept my heaviest load in 45colt. 340gr HC by JBJ seated out in the second grimp groove.Guess I'll have to find a 454 reamer.

bagdadjoe · « **Reply #45 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:28:24 PM »

Looks like to me that buying a whole new rifle in 454 might be cheaper than your co-pay and definitely less painfull. The up-side would be....you'd have two rifles! Two is better than one!!

By the way, does anyone know what the safe perimeter is for shrapnel avoidance from a handi-grenade?

peternap · « **Reply #46 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:14:34 PM »

Quote from: bagdadjoe on December 29, 2009, 02:28:24 PM

Looks like to me that buying a whole new rifle in 454 might be cheaper than your co-pay and definitely less painfull. The up-side would be....you'd have two rifles! Two is better than one!!

By the way, does anyone know what the safe perimeter is for shrapnel avoidance from a handi-grenade?

I don't believe you can blow it up. The best I could do was spring a frame.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #47 on:** December 30, 2009, 03:06:29 AM »

Quote from: S.E.Ak on December 29, 2009, 01:46:14 PM

My 45colt BC arrived today and it won't accept my heaviest load in 45colt. 340gr HC by JBJ seated out in the second grimp groove.Guess I'll have to find a 454 reamer.

There ya go!!

CW

rex6666 · « **Reply #48 on:** December 30, 2009, 07:05:22 AM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 27, 2009, 03:26:11 PM

Hornady seems to playing to there own piper as far as the brass that they use in there loadings...

Ever since the 45-70 LE rounds came out and I saw that they took it upon them selves to shorten the brass to fit there needs. I have sworn off anything to do with there brass or loaded ammo. I wouldn't take it if it was given to me!!

CW

You would think Hornady would know what they are doing wouldn't you?
wonder how many complaints they have? wonder what their insurance cost
is? wonder how they stay in business? Guess i will just keep on buying it,
never had a problem with their ammo.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #49 on:** December 30, 2009, 07:57:24 AM »

Quote from: rex6666 link=topic=193223.msg 1098981272#msg 1098981272 date=1262196322

You would think Hornady would know what they are doing wouldn't you?
wonder how many complaints they have? wonder what their insurance cost
is? wonder how they stay in business? Guess i will just keep on buying it,
never had a problem with their ammo.

Yes you would think that they knew.. you can bet your life that they do!!
That's my problem. There is a governing body this is the SAMI specifications. These are the "rules" everyone making ammo and firearms must work within. What Hornady did with a couple of the Lever Evolution chamberings did was to shorten the brass to fit there needs. This is NOT CORRECT!! The CHOOSE not to build a new caliber, they choose to alter the existing calibers case length and then thumb there nose at the SAMI specs. I do not support this and will not support a company that feels that they are above the rules.
I realize, not everyone will agree with me, but I'm kinda a stickler for the rules. Even if I don't have to agree with them, but they are there for EVERY-ONE'S safety. If people choose to adhere to only the rules or laws that they like or agree with where would we be??

Now I have bought and shot the FTX bullets, before I knew what Hornady did. Once they are gone from my shelve they will not be replaced with more.

Just my 2cents,
CW

rex6666 · « **Reply #50 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:17:40 AM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 30, 2009, 07:57:24 AM

Quote from: rex6666 link=topic=193223.msg 1098981272#msg 1098981272 date=1262196322
You would think Hornady would know what they are doing wouldn't you?
wonder how many complaints they have? wonder what their insurance cost
is? wonder how they stay in business? Guess i will just keep on buying it,
never had a problem with their ammo.

Yes you would think that they knew.. you can bet your life that they do!!
That's my problem. There is a governing body this is the SAMI specifications. These are the "rules" everyone making ammo and firearms must work within. What Hornady did with a couple of the Lever Evolution chamberings did was to shorten the brass to fit there needs. This is NOT CORRECT!! The CHOOSE not to build a new caliber, they choose to alter the existing calibers case length and then thumb there nose at the SAMI specs. I do not support this and will not support a company that feels that they are above the rules.
I realize, not everyone will agree with me, but I'm kinda a stickler for the rules. Even if I don't have to agree with them, but they are there for EVERY-ONE'S safety. If people choose to adhere to only the rules or laws that they like or agree with where would we be??

Now I have bought and shot the FTX bullets, before I knew what Hornady did. Once they are gone from my shelve they will not be replaced with more.

Just my 2cents,
CW

I guess they are able to do this without anyone except you knowing it our
surly someone would shut them down. or maybe they are within the rules,
and some thinks they are not.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #51 on:** December 30, 2009, 10:46:44 AM »

I think most reloaders know that their brass sucks for reloading due to case lenghts

spooked · « **Reply #52 on:** December 30, 2009, 03:32:05 PM »

Quote from: peternap on December 29, 2009, 03:14:34 PM

Quote from: bagdadjoe on December 29, 2009, 02:28:24 PM
Looks like to me that buying a whole new rifle in 454 might be cheaper than your co-pay and definitely less painfull. The up-side would be....you'd have two rifles! Two is better than one!!

By the way, does anyone know what the safe perimeter is for shrapnel avoidance from a handi-grenade?

I don't believe you can blow it up. The best I could do was spring a frame.

It can be done!Know fer a fact!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #53 on:** December 30, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »

Anyone with any serious knowledge of SB2 rifles knows the underlug will fail long before the frame does, it has a built in relief feature. I call BS on anyone that says they've seen an SB2 frame fail catastrophically. Internal flex, yes, it's common with hot loads in high pressure chamberings, but not frame failures.

A very good example of the strength of the frame itself is a (ex)friend of member here accidentally loaded a 7.62x39 round in his 243 at the range and fired it, it locked the action up, so he contacted H&R, he sent it in, the frame was undamaged, they removed the barrel with the damaged underlug and refitted the frame with a new 204 Ruger barrel and returned it to the owner. I don't know what kind of pressure would be created pushing a .311" bullet down a .243" bore, but it's got to be considerable.

Modern SB2 frames are proofed at 70kpsi, you may grenade a cast iron frame, but not a modern SB2, comparing any cast iron frame to a heat treated investment cast alloy steel SB2 frame is ignorant.

Tim

MLN1963 · « **Reply #54 on:** December 31, 2009, 09:38:37 AM »

SAAMI shammy

My 1970,1972 and 1974 Model 14 S&Ws were able to safely handle loads from my early 70s vintage Speer and Hornady reloading manuals. Fast forwad 30 years. SAAMI and litigation have turned those previous 38 special loads into 38+P and in some cases .357 Mag loads. The joke is on us fellas.

rex6666 · « **Reply #55 on:** December 31, 2009, 10:20:38 AM »

Quote from: S.E.Ak on December 30, 2009, 10:46:44 AM

I think most reloaders know that their brass sucks for reloading due to case lenghts

their is probably a good reason for that, like Hornady ain't feeding reloaders.

double R · « **Reply #56 on:** January 01, 2010, 05:19:47 AM »

could you not measure the depth of the chamber with a set of dail calipers. to see if it is cut deep enough.

spooked · « **Reply #57 on:** January 01, 2010, 07:00:26 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 30, 2009, 05:21:22 PM

Anyone with any serious knowledge of SB2 rifles knows the underlug will fail long before the frame does, it has a built in relief feature. I call BS on anyone that says they've seen an SB2 frame fail catastrophically. Internal flex, yes, it's common with hot loads in high pressure chamberings, but not frame failures.

A very good example of the strength of the frame itself is a (ex)friend of member here accidentally loaded a 7.62x39 round in his 243 at the range and fired it, it locked the action up, so he contacted H&R, he sent it in, the frame was undamaged, they removed the barrel with the damaged underlug and refitted the frame with a new 204 Ruger barrel and returned it to the owner. I don't know what kind of pressure would be created pushing a .311" bullet down a .243" bore, but it's got to be considerable.

Modern SB2 frames are proofed at 70kpsi, you may grenade a cast iron frame, but not a modern SB2, comparing any cast iron frame to a heat treated investment cast alloy steel SB2 frame is ignorant.

Tim

Wasn't the frame twas the barrel. A local friend got to experimenting with his reloads, Just happened to drop by to visit him that day and he was taping and bandaging his wounds when I arrived..i can go visit again next week and find out which handi it was I suspicion that it was his .223 though..

cwlongshot · « **Reply #58 on:** January 01, 2010, 07:30:21 AM »

Quote from: spooked link=topic=193223.msg 1098983589#msg 1098983589 date=1262368826

Quote from: quickdtoo link=topic=193223.msg 1098981908#msg 1098981908 date=1262233282
Anyone with any serious knowledge of SB2 rifles knows the underlug will fail long before the frame does, it has a built in relief feature. I call BS on anyone that says they've seen an SB2 frame fail catastrophically. Internal flex, yes, it's common with hot loads in high pressure chamberings, but not frame failures.

A very good example of the strength of the frame itself is a (ex)friend of member here accidentally loaded a 7.62x39 round in his 243 at the range and fired it, it locked the action up, so he contacted H&R, he sent it in, the frame was undamaged, they removed the barrel with the damaged underlug and refitted the frame with a new 204 Ruger barrel and returned it to the owner. I don't know what kind of pressure would be created pushing a .311" bullet down a .243" bore, but it's got to be considerable.

Modern SB2 frames are proofed at 70kpsi, you may grenade a cast iron frame, but not a modern SB2, comparing any cast iron frame to a heat treated investment cast alloy steel SB2 frame is ignorant.

Tim
Wasn't the frame twas the barrel. A local friend got to experimenting with his reloads, Just happened to drop by to visit him that day and he was taping and bandaging his wounds when I arrived..i can go visit again next week and find out which handi it was I suspicion that it was his .223 though..

I'm interested to read and see what you find out. PICTURES would be greatly appreciated!!

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #59 on:** January 01, 2010, 07:57:08 AM »

I'd be very interested in seeing some proof of that claim too, usually there's more to the story than just a defective barrel, like an obstructed bore or some other shooter error like leaving a laser bore sighter in the bore!!

Tim