Searching for "The" elk rifle.... opinions...?

[Swampman]

.30-06 is a step down from the .308???

[mcwoodduck]

I said 30-06 was usually a step up except with the 165 grainers.  I have found a few loads that have the 308 out proforming 06 with 165 grain bullets by 50 FPS in the Nosler book.  It has to do with the internal ballistics and how the 308 case is more efficient.  As for the 200 to 300 FPS I was talking over 06, sorry if I was not clear.  Yes I know some loads will have you maxing out the 300 WM.  I have a friend in Cascade MT that way over loads all of his ammo and is getting huge speeds on the 257WBy, 30-06 and 8mm Rem Mag.  They scare me and I do not count his max + loads as what is normal speeds for those calibers.
Usually you will see factory ammo in the 150 grain loads.  
300 Sav At 2,550 to  2,600 FPS
308 at 2,750 to 2,800 FPS
30-06 at 2,900 to 3,000 FPS
300 H&H 3,000 to 3,150 FPS
300 WM at 3,200 to 3,300 FPS  
300 WSM, 300-338, and 308 Norma are loaded similarly to 300 Win Mag.
300 WBy Mag 3,500 to 3,600 FPS  
They all jump about 100 to 150 Fps as you move up the list.  Some of the older
If I were to have only one rifle it would be a 300 Win Mag especally if I lived in MT.  but 300 Win is a little bit of over kill for the small swamp deer of NC at 60 yards.  Till I went to Mt the longest shot I killed a deer with was 75 yards and that was with a shotgun.  All the rifle shots were under 60 yards with 35 yards being the norm.
Yes hand loading will add 100 to 150 FPS depending on the case and bullet weight.
Game will never know the 200 extra feet per second it will just flatten out your trajectory and allow you to shoot a little farther.
I like that my 308 and my 338 both launch ammo in the 2800 FPS range and bullet drop is about the same for both so I do not have to think.  sight in at 200 yards and hold about 6" high at 300 yards for either.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Now I see what you meant...I haven't cronied any 06 loads for many years..But as far as max. loads none of my .300 loads are at max or over. Most are just under, case life is very long, primer pockets never loosen, I usually loose my cases due to split necks from too many trips though the die... the load I use most with 150's is several grains below max in most books...When I went for sheep in 91 I shot my 300 all summer when I sighted in at 3" high with 150 grain Nosler BTBT, I found I had less that two foot of drop at 500 yards..For the permit of a life time, that was a great comfort...As it turned out, I needed it all...

[Coyote Hunter]

I said 30-06 was usually a step up except with the 165 grainers.  I have found a few loads that have the 308 out proforming 06 with 165 grain bullets by 50 FPS in the Nosler book.  It has to do with the internal ballistics and how the 308 case is more efficient.  As for the 200 to 300 FPS I was talking over 06, sorry if I was not clear.  ...

Powders that are ideal for the .308 Win may be less so in a .30-06 – you need to compare top velocities, not velocities for a given powder.  Doing that the .30-06 comes out on top in Nosler 6th for all bullet weights.  Run a .30-06 at .308 Win pressures and the difference is even more pronounced.

[wareagleguy]

A Tikka in 270 would be a fine elk rifle.  After a day or two walking the mountains you are going to want something light!!!

Watched a friend take elf at around 450 yards with a Browning 270.  Smoked him!

[Swampman]

Watched a friend take elf at around 450 yards with a Browning 270.

elf are small and easy to kill.  For elk I wouldn't choose a .270.

[dukkillr]

A Tikka in 270 would be a fine elk rifle.  After a day or two walking the mountains you are going to want something light!!!

Watched a friend take elf at around 450 yards with a Browning 270.  Smoked him!

I was part of a search party for a bull that had been hit in the lungs with a .270.  We found him the next day, after the meat had a serious funk to it.  It's no different than any other time we have this debate... Can you kill and elk with a .270?  Sure.  Is there a better choice?  Yup.

Now for elf, I'd say a .17 at the most, even a 22-250 would have serious meat damage.

[jcn59]

I use my 6.5 mm for dwarfs, I guess it would be too big for an elf.  Probably waste too much meat.  I think it would work well on trolls and urchins, though.

[Ultra25-06]

Wow this got off track but funny.

[Skunk]

Wow this got off track but funny.

No kidding, but I was LMAO when I read it early this morning.

[usherj]

Tdn,

You could pick up a Tikka T3 lite stainless for less than $600 new. My 338WM with Talley lightweights and a Sightron SII 3-9x42 tips the scales at 7#. Barrel length is 24.5". I was leaning toward 300WM but the twist was 1 in 11". These rifles are light with full length action, so there is no real benefit with the short mags (unless the novelty appeals to you). They are guaranteed to shoot 1MOA, but Beretta customer service is very slow. It really comes down to what feels best, so be sure to handle them first. Good luck

[mauser98us]

Gonna get mangled for this,but....... the 8MM mauser handloaded to the gills with a 200 grain slug kills elk as nicely as anything else,range within reason.

[tck]

Congrats on your new home.  Right now I'm trying to sell a savage 300wsm.  I like the caliber but I have a ruger lightweight 270 that I really like.  I'd like to get a ruger M77 in the 300 RCM for elk hunting and I will as soon as I move that savage! Check it out....

[cwlongshot]

Gonna get mangled for this,but....... the 8MM Mauser hand-loaded to the gills with a 200 grain slug kills elk as nicely as anything else, range within reason.

And why wouldn't it??

 Before I pruned the barrel on my 8MM, (Its 20" now) I was getting a chronographed 2800fps with a near max load of IMR 4064 powder and a Sierra 175 SP bullet. Where I to need this for elk duties, I would be looking at a premium bullet. Something like a Nosler 200 Partition, loaded at top accuracy first and top velocity second. Personally, with this load, I would limit my shots to about 300yards.

CW

[Sweetwater]

Gonna get mangled for this,but....... the 8MM Mauser hand-loaded to the gills with a 200 grain slug kills elk as nicely as anything else, range within reason.

And why wouldn't it??

 Before I pruned the barrel on my 8MM, (Its 20" now) I was getting a chronographed 2800fps with a near max load of IMR 4064 powder and a Sierra 175 SP bullet. Where I to need this for elk duties, I would be looking at a premium bullet. Something like a Nosler 200 Partition, loaded at top accuracy first and top velocity second. Personally, with this load, I would limit my shots to about 300yards.

CW

Mauser98us and CW - I read your postings and mostly see something as I would have written! I LOVE YOU GUYS! and I love short barrels. My 18" 8x57 gets 2700fps with a 175gr Sierra and a full load of IMR3031. A 200gr Nosler Partition gets 2450fps with a dose of BallC2. I've never tried to get more fps as when I developed this load in 1984 for a Maine Moose hunt, I didn't find any data to fit this application and I got into the 8mm-06 data for what I ended with. COL is 3.25" the same as for the 8mm-06. Frankly, it has done the job. I use a 3x scope and have never felt either under-scoped or under-gunned. My longest elk shot has been 275 yards and it, what was that word "discombooberated"? Yeah, it did that!! Totally upended a big cow and went the full length of her, ending under the hide at the opposite end! Bullet found fully intact, though nicely mushroomed. Later lost the bullet through stupidity. Other elk taken with this rifle and load reacted the same way - discombooberated.

For short to medium range, your battery has a lot of overlap, from my perspective. I'm building a 35Whelen not because I need more, just because I like 35's and I found a 35Whelen barrel on GBO, and Dies on GBO, and I have a spare Rem 700 in 30-06 that I don't care 2 cents for. The 30-06 is a great rifle, just not my cup of tea.

I think you are looking at a magnum in the 33-37 caliber range to "fill your gap" so to speak as I see your "gap" as an available range concept more than a caliber concept. and they will kick you accordingly. Recoil becomes a big factor very quickly and you learn to control it or leave it in the rack. Again, all choices. Keep us posted as to your choice and the results of your choice. Happy New Year!

One more comment per 308/30-06 - I have both. If all there is amounts to a difference of 50fps, IMHO, that is no difference. If there is one thing the Chrony showed me, it was shot to shot variation. None of my rifles will give me a velocity of 2597fps. They may give me one shot at that velocity or even an average of that velocity, but the next day at the range that same box of shells may be 20fps different. That is still no difference. One thing hunting has shown me is that shot placement is more important than bigger/faster - without getting into extremely exagerated comparisons. (ie 22rf vs 500 thunderthumper) Also, 50 yards of available range is no difference, either. I can't judge the difference between 250 and 300 yards very effectively, but my rifle in my hands doesn't need that differentiated. The game still goes in the freezer.  Game can't read ballistics tables. Our rifles are far more effective than paper ballistics. We owe it to our trophys to put in the practice time that it takes to know our rifles.
Know your rifle and take your shot. Your 308 is very capable.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Swampman]

Yep almost every cartridge is as good as the .30-06, it's the benchmark.

[jcn59]

Started it's civilian life as a VZ, now has 18" tapered military barrel, Weaver k-4 with Post, still 8mm Mauser, but now about 6.5# as you see it.   All anyone really needs to hunt most anything in USA.

[mauser98us]

Yep almost every cartridge is as good as the .30-06, it's the benchmark.

Well actually altho no difference in the real world, the better bore expansion ratio of the 8 MM Mauser and especially in weights of bullets 175 to 220 grain. These criteria make the 8MM Mauser technically superior to the good old ought six.

[bigswede]

First off I'd like to say Hello, I'm a newbie to the forums here.  Now to get down to business.  Go find a beat-up old rifle in whatever brand you favor, needs to be a magnum caliber.  Take it to your favorite smith and have it rebarreled, a fairly inexspensive thing to do, to the 358NORMA magnum.  With a 24" barrel mine shoots a 250 grain slug around 2900fps, and hits like the hammer of Thor.  This caliber has more energy than a 338wm and is real close to 338 ultra.  Brass can be made from either 338wm or 300wm, although the 338 wil be a little short, it still works great.  35 calibers are easy to load for.  35's also do great destruction with little meat damage.  I am a 35 caliber fan.  A 350 rem mag also makes a great elk cartridge, but not quite the womp-em' of a Norma.  Just my .02 ;

[Sweetwater]

JCN59- pretty rifle!
My 18" is a Persian Carbine military barrel, but not tapered, it's stepped.

Gotta love those short barrels - total convenience!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[Bigeasy]

TDN-

I don't know there is that big of a difference really between a 308 and a 300 WSM for elk at normal ranges.  I would look at something like the 325 win mag, or the new Federal 338, especially if you are a reloader.  The 35 whelen is a fine long action choice.  Whatever caliber you choose, the Kimber is a fine rifle.  I own several.  They have nice triggers, are very accurate and well made, are light weight, and balance well.  Most makers acheive lite carrying weight by shortening the barrel and stock.  Kimber uses a 22 inch barrel in its #84, and scales the action to the caliber, which helps balance.  All 3 of mine shoot under 1 inch with loads they like.  Kimbers use a soft, thick recoil pad, and a straight comb on the stock, which helps reduce recoil.

Larry

[cwlongshot]

jcn59,
 I agree with Sweetwater, that's a beauty of a rifle!!  I am really becoming attracted to blond wood...

Big swede,
 WELCOME!!!  I look hard at the Big Norma when I built my Whelen. The only real detractor for me was getting good reliable feeding thru the Mauser. I have a 7MM mag in a K98 and its problematic feeding. I have seen good ones, but the guy I was using at the time wasn't one of them. His work was first rate otherwise. I didn't want the issues feeding, so decided to keep it std bolt face diameter and just utilize a little longer barrel. Mine is just over 26" and it does make a difference. I am just under 3000fps with a 200Gr bullet with AA2520 powder. I too and a big 35cal fan. It all started for me back in the late 70's with a BLR in 358 Winchester. Now THAT rifle was Thor's hammer on whitetails and Black Bears!!!

If I was to build another, expressly for elk. I would again look hard at the Big Norma or the 358 STW. If I was going to buy one off the shelf, the 338Mag or the 340 Weatherby would be my choice.

CW

[jeepmann1948]

 A very good man and friend of mine , George Hoffman ( the developer of the 416 Hoffman which became the 416 Remington) was a dedicated Elk hunter. He took over 70 Elk during his life span. He hunted in all of the Western States in all terrains. He hunted with numerous well known gun experts and writers, however his favorite hunting partner was his wife.
 Having an extensive collection of firearms to select from, plus the means to use them he tried all of the popular calibers and cartridges on game from whitetails to African game up to and including the elephant and rhino.
 I and others consider him to be an expert on Elk. His personal favorite was a pre-64 Model Winchester in 270 Win. loaded with 150 gr Nosler Partition bullets!George credited it with making the best around, making more one shot kills than even the big magnums.
 Another gun scribe, Layne Simpson did a survey some years back in Alaska from the Big Bear outfitters as to which cartridge made the most one shot kills on the Big Boys, a Surprising 
 result to all was the 270 came in first.
 It has been around a long time and has been praised by many besides Jack O'Conner who in his own right knew how good the old 270 is and was.
 In my opinion I think any legal cartridge that shoots to the right spot and the shooter has confidence in will kill an elk. (there are too many to list!) But when I go Elk Hunting I carry a lite weight 270 Win with George Hoffmann's favotite load
Happy Trails

[cwlongshot]

A very good man and friend of mine , George Hoffman ( the developer of the 416 Hoffman which became the 416 Remington) was a dedicated Elk hunter. He took over 70 Elk during his life span. He hunted in all of the Western States in all terrains. He hunted with numerous well known gun experts and writers, however his favorite hunting partner was his wife.
 Having an extensive collection of firearms to select from, plus the means to use them he tried all of the popular calibers and cartridges on game from whitetails to African game up to and including the elephant and rhino.
 I and others consider him to be an expert on Elk. His personal favorite was a pre-64 Model Winchester in 270 Win. loaded with 150 gr Nosler Partition bullets!George credited it with making the best around, making more one shot kills than even the big magnums.
 Another gun scribe, Layne Simpson did a survey some years back in Alaska from the Big Bear outfitters as to which cartridge made the most one shot kills on the Big Boys, a Surprising  
 result to all was the 270 came in first.
 It has been around a long time and has been praised by many besides Jack O'Conner who in his own right knew how good the old 270 is and was.
 In my opinion I think any legal cartridge that shoots to the right spot and the shooter has confidence in will kill an elk. (there are too many to list!) But when I go Elk Hunting I carry a lite weight 270 Win with George Hoffman's favorite load
Happy Trails

I too have read these stories. Not to take away from them one bit, but the biggest reason for there favor has nothing to do with them being any better than the others mentioned.. It's simply that many hunters are not great shooters, and a lighter recoiling caliber is easier to shoot accurately.

Like someone said a couple pages back.. its more WHERE you shoot them than it is WHAT you shoot them with.   THEN we ad in personal favorites into the mix. 

CW

[coyotejoe]

Elmer Keith felt the .338 Win Mag was THE elk rifle. I don't shoot elk in the butt like Elmer was fond of doing so I've had fine results from my 6.5x55, 30/30 and round balls from a .50 caliber muzzleloader. If you place your shots and don't try to stretch your effective range you'll find elk no harder to kill than deer.

[jcn59]

Sweetwater ~  That blond wood is a $35. piece of maple Fagen closeout that I bought about ten years ago.    The tapering deal with the military barrel is to leave the barrel at the diameter of the last step and taper from there to the largest diameter by the action. 

One of the guys we hunt elk with has killed at least 25 elk and he is most recently enamored with the .338 Win mag.

He killed the vast majority of his elk with a 25-06, but he feels it's marginal on elk though he never lost one.  He just had to shoot them a few times.  He wasn't happy with his 45-70 or his .308 Warbird.  We hunt black timber & never shoot much over 100 yards, usually less.   

Another guy in camp uses a .270 Win, and has probably shot more elk than all of us together.  He could shoot a bigger cartridge, and afford a different rifle, but doesn't feel he he needs it.  He bought his son a .270 also.   

These guys live 20 miles from the elk camp.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Elmer was not fond of shooting elk in the butt...He was first and foremost a meat hunter...For many years, if he did not have elk, he might not eat.. He favored the 33's because he hunted heavy timber in Idaho mostly...Often in thick stuff we find the shot is not perfectly broadside and the bullet must drive though at a bad or poor angle...hence his preference for heavy large cal. bullets...Unlike most of the gun scribes like O"Connor, he was normally hunting on his own for meat..It is much easier to have good hunting when some one else is showing you the game, and if you don't connect you don't eat...It has been rumored that Elmer killed over 150 elk in his life time...While I do not subscribe to all he said, he had much experience hunting elk ON HIS OWN..He also hunted in a time when elk were not a numerous as they are today..So one had to make his chances count...Many of the "modern" gun scribes have either free hunts or their way paid by the magazine...Easy to be selective under those conditions...As Elmer hunted other states later in life, he came to favor faster rounds to reach out in more open elk country...Here came the .340 and 338/378 KT....

[Harry Snippe]

One point to remember if going into a lighter rifle . A 6.5 Pound rifle in 300 or 338 Something might be easy to carry , but hurt on both ends when you shoot . So if going in that direction invest in a good reciol pad .
I see on TV the outdoor channel were very long shots are taken with the 7mm Rem and burger bullets , so is there really a need to carry something like a 460 Weatherby to kill an Bull Elk at say 500 yards or so ?
I think maybe I would be looking at the glass on the rifles on hand, to see if they might be better improved apon  .I did this to my model 70 Winchester in 300 Mag and it sure made a big difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

   Harry, you have touch on something very important that many choose to ignore...Look at the posts that say a 3 or 4 power scope is enough for hunting...I suppose  it is enough for most average hunters, but skilled hunters AND skilled rifleman can make use of more power especially in open country..My old .300 has a Leupold 3-9 on it with dots to 600 yards... BUT I have other .300's with much more powerful scope on them...They are useful...When I first started elk hunting here almost 40 years ago, most elk were in the mts. and hunted in dark timber, with some shots coming in clear cuts or parks..Now we have elk all over the plains...During the last winter season that just ended I saw elk everyday, most were at least 1/2 mile away...They could see me and didn't care, they knew they were safe...I guess if I had really wanted to tag that second elk, I could have made a stalk in the cold temps. and gotten in to range with my .300, then the high powered scope would have made the shot easy...

[Graybeard]

Skilled hunters don't need to shoot at 600 yards plus. They go hunting not target shooting on big game animals.