Author Topic: Another lost trophy cannon from Span-Am War (Read 2534 times)

Cannoneer · « **on:** December 28, 2009, 11:01:13 PM »

An article on an 18th century Spanish bronze cannon brought back from Cuba as a trophy from the Spanish American War, and which was donated to a WW II scrap metal drive in 1942.

Lost Spanish Cannon

cannonmn · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:11:18 AM »

Thanks for posting. Here are the specs on that particular weapon, from the files we have on the SARA group site. As you can see the name of the gun was "Novarro." At 7,000 lbs, 6.5-inch bore, about 12 feet long, it was certainly a magnificent weapon. The Army folks who wrote down the marks on the gun didn't decipher the royal cipher correctly of course, since it was the cipher of Carlos III, the intertwined letters were C and R.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums52/LincolnNESpanishcannondonated.jpg

Cannoneer · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:27:44 PM »

Thanks, Cannonmn. The photo that accompanied the article isn't of very high quality, but you can see by using the man on the platform as a reference, that the cannon is a rather large specimen.

I've read that the Spanish were still using stone shot for quite some time after Britain, and other European countries had already progressed to using strictly iron shot in their cannons; would the maker of this 6.50-inch gun have intended it to fire stone shot?

cannonmn · « **Reply #3 on:** December 29, 2009, 02:46:42 PM »

Quote

would the maker of this 6.50-inch gun have intended it to fire stone shot?

Absolutely not, not for the big guns of the 18th C. and later.

My knowledge is mostly 18th C. and later. I think the Spanish may have used stone shot in the small wrought-iron Pedrero, which may have been in use as late as the 18th C. I would happily defer to Bob Smith on this question as my knowledge here is spotty. I'll bet Harold Peterson or Albert Manucy addressed this in their books.

The only "nonferrous" type of shot I know was used in Spanish cannon, especially in Mexico, up into the 19th C. is copper. Copper is a biproduct of some silvermines, and there were many such in Mexico, produciing an excess of copper, so the military authorities had copper canister shot cast for their guns. I expect they had copper solid shot and copper grapeshot as well, but copper canister shot has been found on at least one battlefield in So. Texas (formerly Mexico.)

p51 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:52:38 PM »

We’ll never know for sure of the extent of historical treasures that were melted down in wartime scrap drives in the 20th century. The Smithsonian cleaned out a lot of their military collection for scrapping for patriotic measures in WW2. Scrapping historical artillery, bells and such things probably had very little effect to the war efforts other than for the locals to feel good about themselves for a while and make following generation seethe with anger.

Even so, it seems today like there’s still a tube brought back from the Spanish-American war in almost every county in the country. I know of at least a dozen such tubes within a 40 mile circle from my front door. I’d love to read how much ordnance they brought back, as they must have filled entire flotillas with captured Spanish artillery.

Bob Smith · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2009, 12:49:07 AM »

I would guess that Spain was still using perriers-large stone-throwers that is- in the 1620s. In England, the surviving Bronze perriers were melted down to turn into drakes in the 1630s. One of those, cast for the Sovereign of the Seas, has survived in the old Rotunda collection.

Bob Smith

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2009, 01:27:30 AM »

Quote

I know of at least a dozen such tubes within a 40 mile circle from my front door. I’d love to read how much ordnance they brought back, as they must have filled entire flotillas with captured Spanish artillery.

You really should join the SARA group, we're actively listing and studying all of those we can find. It would really be great if you could photograph some and record the marks, and pass those along either here or in the SARA group, doesn't matter, if here I'll transfer them over there.

Thanks for the input.

BTW, I have records on many of the gov't donations of those pieces ca. 1901. The gov't documents, such as the little sliver of one I posted above, recorded all the marks of many such pieces, so if the piece was scrapped, I still know the details of it thanks to those documents.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2009, 09:18:19 AM »

Here is a howitzer that is part of a Sanish American War Memorial located at Buccleuch Park in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
The plaque on the concrete cannon mount reads: Howitzer taken from Cabanas fortress, Havana harbor, Cuba 1898.

Span-Am War Memorial I

Span-Am War Memorial II

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2009, 04:30:40 PM »

Any other way to see those photos? All I could see on the screen when I went to those links, was a Nodam.

cannonmn · « **Reply #9 on:** December 30, 2009, 05:04:32 PM »

OK I can see the pix now, I don't know why tne Nodam kept showing up.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 30, 2009, 05:45:09 PM »

I got these photos from Webshots, and I couldn't save them and post them using my photo hosting account, so I opened properties and copied the ID, then pasted it here. I'm glad you said something, because I wasn't sure if it was working for others.

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2357842820092194034rGndhW

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2010, 10:31:05 AM »

Cannonmn,
Does the SARA group want/need information on bronze Spanish-American trophy cannons that are at different locations across the U.S., even if no markings are given in the article/webpage, or is it unproductive to post these sites?

Is there a U.S. Military master list that is extant, that documents every piece of Spanish ordnance that was taken as a trophy from differing locations of the Spanish-American War?

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2010, 12:08:40 PM »

SARA is interested in any and all.

Quote

Is there a U.S. Military master list that is extant, that documents every piece of Spanish ordnance that was taken as a trophy from differing locations of the Spanish-American War?

I've posted that list on the SARA files section, all you'd need to do to access it is join SARA and go to files section, lotsa stuff there.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2010, 08:07:09 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on January 01, 2010, 12:08:40 PM

I've posted that list on the SARA files section, all you'd need to do to access it is join SARA and go to files section, lotsa stuff there.

I'm getting there; I sometimes move with the velocity of a three-toed sloth in low gear.

Photos of a bronze Spanish trophy cannon on a war memorial in Michigan.
"Quick Description: The Dewey Cannon was captured from a Spanish Fort in Manila during the Spanish-American War and is on display along with a Michigan Historical Marker in Dewey Cannon Park in Three Oaks, Michigan."
The Dewey Cannon, Three Oaks, Michigan

A short article (with a small photo) on a Spanish-American War trophy cannon located at Wright Park, Tacoma, Washington.
Spanish Cannon, Tacoma

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2010, 02:00:53 PM »

The first one in MI sure looks exactly like a US bronze 6-pounder pattern 1841. If it had dolphins I'd be more convinced it was really Spanish. Wonder how we can find out the marks on it? Anyone live nearby, or feel like calling the VFW in town?

I took liberty of posting these over on the SARA site, mentioning that they were posted by one of the regulars here.

cannonmn · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2010, 03:21:29 PM »

Here's a better pic of the Tacoma piece. I think this one is listed in the War Dept. list in the SARA files section, so we can find the marks that way.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** January 03, 2010, 09:20:36 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on January 02, 2010, 02:00:53 PM

The first one in MI sure looks exactly like a US bronze 6-pounder pattern 1841. If it had dolphins I'd be more convinced it was really Spanish. Wonder how we can find out the marks on it? Anyone live nearby, or feel like calling the VFW in town?

I was wondering what you'd have to say about this one. I've seen Spanish guns that had similar profiles to those of M1841 6-pdrs, but it's hard to believe that this cannon is of Spanish origin. What's surprising to me, is that the person taking the photos must have gotten this misinformation off of the monument. Like you said, it would be interesting (if some lives near this monument) to find out what markings are on the cannon, and also what information is on the monument that identifies it as a Span-Am War trophy gun.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** January 03, 2010, 09:41:25 AM »

Spanish Mortar memorial - University of Michigan - Ann Arbor, Michigan.
The inscription on the tompion reads: Erected In Honor Of The U. Of M. Men Who Fought In The War With Spain. By The Class Of 99.

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** January 03, 2010, 10:47:52 AM »

John,

Makes you wonder which Class of '99- 18 or 19?

cannonmn · « **Reply #19 on:** January 03, 2010, 11:56:24 AM »

I know this one fairly well, it is a very unusual type, may have a spherical chamber. I think it may have come up on this board before. All the marks on it are given on the War Department list on the SARA files site. As I recall it is at least a 12 in. bore. The founder may have been Franciscus Mir. Anyway, a rare piece. There are one or two more facts and some other pix here:

http://www.plantext.bf.umich.edu/planner/sculpture/central/mortar.htm

Cannoneer · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2010, 07:25:26 AM »

Quote from: Double D on January 03, 2010, 10:47:52 AM

John,

Makes you wonder which Class of '99- 18 or 19?

DD,
I'd bet a couple of bucks that the date refers to 1899; my reasoning being that if it were the class of 1999, there woudn't be any memorial on the university grounds, although there might still be a few news videos around that documented the protest that they staged in order to make known their opposition to the unjust and inhumane war that America had waged against Spain.

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2010, 07:38:04 AM »

Quote from: Boom J on January 04, 2010, 07:25:26 AM

Quote from: Double D on January 03, 2010, 10:47:52 AM
John,

Makes you wonder which Class of '99- 18 or 19?

DD,
I'd bet a couple of bucks that the date refers to 1899; my reasoning being that if it were the class of 1999, there woudn't be any memorial on the university grounds, although there might still be a few news videos around that documented the protest that they staged in order to make known their opposition to the unjust and inhumane war that America had waged against Spain.

John,

You are right of course..the wondering was rhetorical.

p51 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:29:58 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on January 02, 2010, 03:21:29 PM

Here's a better pic of the Tacoma piece. I think this one is listed in the War Dept. list in the SARA files section, so we can find the marks that way.

I live in the area, will try to get out there to get any details I can, hopefully next weekend. I’d never heard of this gun before now. There are plenty of Span-Am guns on Fort Lewis, but my DoD sticker just expired last month and I can’t get another one now that I’m a civilian again…

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2010, 09:52:58 PM »

Quote

There are plenty of Span-Am guns on Fort Lewis,

There are eight 24-pounders. We had a discussion about them on the Company of Military Historians Forum, where many of them are pictured. There was also an article linked in which gave the marks on many of them. Many were cast in Manila, Philippines at the Spanish foundry there.