Any way to prevent a Winchester 94 30-30 making a mess of cartridges?

[demented]

 After cycling cartridges through my '94 three of four times, both bullets and cases are really dinged and scratched.  Are there any points that can be polished, etc to prevent this?

[jlchucker]

Sounds to me like you may have some roughness around your loading gate cutout, or the front edge of the loading gate itself.  If that's the situation, your ammo is getting scratched up when you load your rifle.  That's not really uncommon with some leverguns, and you can smooth the roughness up a little, then apply a little cold blue (or not). 

[Dee]

Sounds to me like you are opening the action SLOWLY, with an unfired round in the chamber. The damage that you didn't describe could be a messed up soft NOSE, or a chunk of the rim pulled almost out. Is that the damage your talking about?
If it is, then the rifle's extraction process is doing it's job, but you aren't. Give us a hint at the TYPE of damage to rounds.

[SHOOTALL]

My 7X30 does what Dee says . After a couple loadings the soft lead tip looks like it is a nail head .

[Dee]

Yep! Work the action instead EASIN it open.

[gunnut69]

NOTE_ at the bottom you'll find a link to a parts blow up for clarity.
If the 94 is scratching the cases and bullets on the sides it's likely doing it as they are loaded thru the port in the right side of the action. the broach cut where the shells are inserted can have very sharp burrs..as can the loading gate and its attached spring. The remedy is really fairly easy. Strip the action and remove the screw(56) which retains the loading gate or spring cover(55) as they call it. The edges of the spring cover and the inside edge of the opening it fills are what usually do this sort of damage. I prefer stones to remove these sharp edges but careful use of small needle files will also suffice. The amount of metal removed is and must be negligible.. Any blue damage can be covered with an application of OxphoBlue.. The carrier (30) can also cause such damage and removing its two retaining screws(29) and taking it out of the action allows it's edges a TINY bit of polishing to knock of sharp edges. This is usually not the cause but I have seen it almost always in post 64 actions.. You can usually look at the parts as the action is stripped and see the brass slivers scratched from the cases. Just remove the offending burr. If you can strip the action you can do this kind of work. REMEMBER--change very little..just remove the sharp edges burrs thats all!!! Good luck. Bye the way if the rifle is damaging brass at extraction the usual cause is a rough chamber. The action functions best at speed but slower should not cause brass damage.

http://stevespages.com/ipb-winchester-94.html

[Dee]

The case damage I was talking about is when working the action slowly the combination of the bullet hitting the top of the chamber, and the ejector pushing it up, SOMETIMES causes the extractor to try and pull a piece off the rim, but instead deforms a piece of the rim, usually the width of the extractor itself. This movement will also damage the head of a soft nose bullet, and neither have anything to do with a sticky chamber. It's purely a mechanical event.

[Spanky]

After 50 years shooting a Winchester 30-30 I'd say Dee knows what he's talking about.
Listen to what he has to say.



Spanky

[demented]

Thanks for all the replies!  I'm getting it all...bullet tips gouged, case rims dinged, sides of the cases and bullets severely scratched.  Normally I wouldn't be worried about unloading but to be within the law any time I travel on a public road during hunting season the rifle has to be unloaded.  As hard as ammo is to come by these days, I hate to damage ammo beyond use.  I've had several 94's in the past that didn't do this, figured there HAS to be something that needs a bit of polishing to alleviate the problem.  Thanks for the advice!

[Dee]

Work the action faster when unloading it and see what happens.

[demented]

Will do.  Again, I really appreciate ya'll taking the time to help with this.  Since this rifle is my "working" gun, I think I'm gonna send it to Mac's Shootin' Irons to have one of his Tuff Gun finishes done, kinda wanted to get it lined out beforehand. 

[gunnut69]

I still don't understand.. The round going into the chamber is being pushed, so how does the extractor tear a piece out of the rim? The ejector is spring loaded and should give when it colapses as the round is pushed forward.. The extractor catches the case as it slides up the bolt face.. If the carrier is slow or worn it can let the round attempt to center the chamber from too low. This can cause the denting of the case and I suppose a sticky extractor could damage a rim if slammed shut but not if operated too slow??  This timing issue can occur if the carrier spring is worn or damaged.. I have even seen cartridge noses damaged by a too sharp chamber edge. Deburring usually helps.. I cannot see how a loaded round could be extracted slowly and the rim damaged by the extractor.

[Dee]

Your looking at it backwards gunnut69. I'M saying the damage will occur on EXTRACTION, not chambering. This is when the force is being applied to the case head, and bullet nose. The ejector is trying to push the cartridge up and out, the extractor is pulling it out, and the bullet itself, is hitting the top of the chamber fighting the process of the ejector and extractor. If the round had been fired, the bullet would be absent, and the casing would eject much sooner with less pressure applied to the case head.

[yellowtail3]

The case damage I was talking about is when working the action slowly the combination of the bullet hitting the top of the chamber, and the ejector pushing it up, SOMETIMES causes the extractor to try and pull a piece off the rim, but instead deforms a piece of the rim, usually the width of the extractor itself. This movement will also damage the head of a soft nose bullet, and neither have anything to do with a sticky chamber. It's purely a mechanical event.

THIS GUYS IS RIGHT - and this seems to apply to Marlins too, I've lately figured out. Being a mechanically-sensitive kind of guy... I've cycled the lever on my 336 slowly and gently - wanting to be quiet, too? - and this sometimes results in jams with round angled upward. It NEVER does this, if cycled briskly.

I cycle it briskly, now. No problem, and tip of bullet stays cleaner.

[gunnut69]

Actually Dee is claining the damage is done while extracting a loaded round from the chamber. The ejector providing enough pressure while the bullet is still in the chamber to damage the bullet, tear a chunk from the rim and scratch up(dent) the case.  I still believe this to be hogwash. M94's and Marling 336's are designed to be activated rapidly but the extractor has no where near the force required to damage a case rim and an unfired case should not be sticking enough to damage the rim either.. A round tipping as it's being levered into the chamber is a different dog. It's likely a misalignment of the carrier or an activation problem. The 94 uses a carrier system that's pretty much different in action. The results are the same but how it happens is different.

[dud]

dee is right,lever actions and pumps are meant to work rapidly,if not you will have problem exactly as described. or jammed.

[red alder ranch]

I learned that the hard way on my first lever gun, a Marlin 336. Now that I know to work the action rapidly and with authority, I don't get those problems anymore. I do need to smooth the edge of the loading gate though, since I do get some scratching on the sides of cases. And since I've been using a lot of the Hornady leverevolution ammo with the flex tips, I can't leave the tube loaded or it deforms the tips of the ammo.