Author Topic: newbie question: why expensive scopes?  (Read 2436 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline toan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« on: October 27, 2003, 08:56:09 AM »
Hi folks,

What's the reason for buying "quality" scopes?

I look through my $30 scope and the images are clear; the resolution on the scope is infinitely clearer than i can shoot. so what is it that makes a good scope worth the money? thanks!

toan

Offline KN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2003, 12:29:36 PM »
I would bet you have never really looked through a quality scope side by side with your $30 scope. Too many cheap scopes have failed when they are needed most. I will agree that a cheap scope on a low powered rifle thats never shot out past 100yds will probanly work ok. But try and use one for varments out to 300-500yds and it will become obvious why you want a better scope.  KN

Offline tominboise

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 320
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2003, 12:37:38 PM »
Well, everybody operates under their own reasons, and what works for you might not work for somebody else.  So, if you are happy with the performance you get with your scope, then more power to you.  As for me, I have found that, ultimately, paying more now equates to paying less in the future.  By that I mean that it is usually worth paying more for a quality product.  For example, a higher quality scope will generally have adjustments that work as advertised, and are repeatable.  This might not matter to a guy who shoots one load all the time, but as a handloader, I find scope adjustments that don't work well very frustrating.  Another example of quality is the "pounding" that a scope will take and still perform.  I have, in my life, occasionally fallen down and landed on my rifle and scope.  I have also knocked a rifle or two over onto the floor.  My scopes have all survived and still work.  They will also withstand the recoil impulse, and continue to perform for years, which is VERY IMPORTANT if you have any money or time at all invested in a hunt.

Please notice that nowhere have I mentioned that the most expensive scopes are the best, nor have I mentioned the quality of the glass.  Higher quality scopes generally have fine optics, certainly good enough for the intent, which is delivering a bullet to the aiming point.  Optically high quality glass is extremely important in binoculars and spotting scopes.

Sorry for the long reply.
Regards,

Tom

Offline Dave in WV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2003, 12:44:02 PM »
When I was younger scopes costing under $100 were great. When I needed glasses things changed. I have found scopes costing $250 and up make a big difference. The higher priced scopes have better clarity and are brighter in dim light. I can see as well with less magnification. I also found I didn't have to refocus my better scopes after I started wearing glasses. Dave
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein

Offline Bullseye

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1879
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2003, 05:12:28 PM »
I have had both.  Would probably still be happy with the $30 ones if I had not tried the good ones.  Get used to the good ones and you will not be happy with the $30 ones.  I took a Tasco off my 22 this summer and put a Leopold on it.  Asked my wife to sight it in at the range one day.  Afterwards she said that it sure was easier to see through that scope than the old one.  I can't believe she noticed, what a lady.

Offline toan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2003, 08:22:36 PM »
Thanks guys for the replies. I guess the reason for a good scope is that it is more user-friendly? When i get a job (I'm a recent graduate) I'll save a little for a good scope.

I'm wondering if you guys get much better groups with better scopes because of improved optics or if you get slightly better groups because the scope is easier to use?

Offline Zachary

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3713
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2003, 02:41:13 AM »
Expensive scopes are not necessarily more "user friendly."  For the most parts, all scopes are basically the same - there is no rocket science here.

The biggest difference between cheap scopes and expensive scopes is quality - both in terms of components and workmanship, and of course research and development is a part of it.

To further answer your question, higher quality scopes definately "group" better.  The reason for this is because, like I said, the quality scopes have quality components and are built better.  I have seen cheap scopes literally have their cross hairs break apart at a gun range - even on relatively light kicking guns like a .270.  On other cheap scopes, the tracking is just awfull.

Granted, the law of diminishing returns applies to optics like just about everything else (i.e. a $1,000 scope is not necessarily 10 times better than a $500 scope).  However, given that the optics market is so competitive, as a very general rule of thumb, try to buy scopes that are over $200.  Yes, this is a very general rule of thumb, and thus not very accurate.  As a model example, take a look - AT A MINIMUM - the Bushnell Elite 3200s and Nikon Buckmasters.  These are around $200 and excellent buys.  Personally, I wouldn't go any cheaper - and you shouldn't either. :wink:

Zachary

Offline Dave in WV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2003, 03:43:49 AM »
IMHO many people starting out buy the low priced optics especially if they are young. They tend to get at least a 3x9 and maybe an even higher magnification scope so they can see the bullet holes when they sight in. (that's what spotting scopes are for) They buy $50 pocket binoculars from Kmart, Wallmart, etc. With their "young" eyes they see quite well through the bargains they got. After all they looked as good in the store.
  In reality the better optics are clearer and usually brighter especially at higher magnification. I had a 2x10 Weaver that was a good scope. I compared it to my 1.5x6 Burris Signature and I could see the metal numbers and letters on a telephone pole 300 yards behind my house just as well with the Burris scope set on 6x as I could with the Weaver on 10x.
  You can get a $300 Savage rifle to drive tacks but a $30 scope is not going to compete with the more expensive scopes on a level playing field. Optics just don't work that way.
  As far as better groups with the better scopes? Many probably don't. Why? Because by the time many of us wised up and bought the good optics we got the "old fart shakes" and can't shoot like we used to. :wink:
  One more recommendation, buy the scope you need where you are going to hunt. Buying a 4.5x14 or 6.5x20 because you may get to hunt "out west" when you are going to hunt in brush so thick you can't see more than 50 yards where you do normally hunt is limiting your optic ability to work for you.  Dave
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein

Offline toan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 4
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2003, 08:22:35 AM »
Zachary,
Thanks for the reply. I think i'll have to stay cheapie till i get a little more $. Bushnell Elite (as you've recommended) seems like a very popular scope and i think I'll look into the bushnell line down the road.

Dave,
Interesting points--I'll be hunting in open fileds in the plains and hillsides of california so I guess a nice scope might be very important. "old fart shakes" lol, it's a good thing then I'm here and learning from the "old farts" :-). You guys sold me on a quality scope. Thanks for the info!

toan

Offline SeanD

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2003, 02:21:00 PM »
I dont think all of us need to buy expensive scopes.  By expensive i mean more than $200.

There are a many things that a lot of us find important in a scope.  These factors determine the price of the scope.  If you want the best quality optics and the brightest scopes, you will pay much much more than $200.  

To me, the most important thing is durability, toughness, dependability, whatever.  Optical quality is secondary to durability for me.  Almost any scope over $100 is bright and clear enough for me to put the crosshairs on a big game animal, but is it dependable?  So i spend $180 and up for a scope and get a lifetime no hassle warranty and the best reliablity record in the business.  You may be able to find a cheaper scope that is brighter and clearer, but its pretty darn rare to find a much cheaper scope that is reliable AT ALL.  Having gone the cheapo route before and breaking multiple tascos and a cheaper bushnell, i think I agree with Zach that the good minimum for a good scope is the elite 3200, or my personal choice, leupold varix2/VX1.
sean

Offline Dave in WV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2003, 02:59:15 PM »
I agree you don't need a high dollar scope to be well equiped. The single scope I've used to take the most deer with was a 3x9 Bushnell Sportview I paid $30 for. I bought it in 1977 and used it for 10 years. The most expensive scope I have cost me $328 (a Pentax on sale). One would probably be better off spending $200 on a scope and $300 for binoculars than $500 for a scope and $100 or less for binoculars.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein

Offline Hound_Dog55

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 95
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2003, 04:16:19 PM »
I try to buy the best I can afford at the time. Sometimes the quality is better than other times. But I have never failed to sell  a cheaper scope when I'm able to upgrade.

Offline SeanD

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2003, 07:51:13 PM »
Id try and sell my cheaper scopes too, but for some strange reason nobody wants to buy scopes that are broken.   :eek:
sean

Offline kc5rkg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
cheap scopes
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2003, 05:22:53 PM »
I was in the same boat.  I had a Tasco World Class on my 30-06 and it actually worked fine for the 3 years I had it on the rifle.  I then replaced it with a Weaver GrandSlam from Opticzone.  I was really surprised at the difference.  The Grand Slam was much clearer and brighter. I highly reccommend them.  I gave the Tasco to my cousin and he put it on a 30-06.  After 10 shots the scope cratered on him, it got all fuzzy and was shooting all over.  I'm glad I switched scopes when I did, I would hate to have a trophy on the other end and not be able to see it!

Offline GillDog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Love my expensive scope
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2003, 12:33:10 PM »
I have a Leupold VariX-III 3.5-10 x 50mm on my rifle. I live in Alaska and this time of year a lot of my shots are in low light situations and the 50 mm objective gathers a lot of light. It was an expensive scope but I have gotten 7 deer and a goat this year and I would buy it again if I had to do it over.

Ohh the other nice thing about Leupold is there lifetime guarntee.
Ben

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Leupold durability
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2003, 12:39:27 PM »
I try to buy the best for durability.  My Leupold Vari X III 1.5-5 has been on my 300 win mag for over 20 yrs.  Its been bounced around in boats, air planes and snow mobiles.  I've fallen on it -hard- several times.  Its taken close to 2000 rounds of full power 300 win mag - mostly 180 to 220 gr loads.  I've hunted and shot it from about 80 degrees F down to -20F.  Never had a problem.  Every time I think I've messed it up, it turns out the shooter is the problem- or my barrel is fouled.  I'm amazed how tough this scope is.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline akpls

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: Love my expensive scope
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2003, 05:18:07 PM »
Quote from: GillDog
Ohh the other nice thing about Leupold is there lifetime guarntee.


Nikon, Bushnell, Burris and others are also offering lifetime warranties.  I think it would be interesting to see a comparison of how many scopes each manufacturer actually has repaired or replaced under warranty and what the problems or reasons for returning them were.  For instance, was it dropped down the mountain by the user or was it defective, etc.

Offline Robert

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
If you are going out plinking, cheap is fine, but for huntin
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2003, 10:15:23 AM »
A scope has to stand up to some extreme conditions for hunting.  Cold, rain, rough terrain etc......and STILL GET MY MEAT IN THE FREEZER.  Yesterday I slipped climbing an Elk trail.  I carry my rifle through heavy brush sometimes, up hills, through frozen hilltops in the morning, and rainy gullys, get soaked in the rain and hardly see out of my windsheild from my wet clothes in the car....but my Bushnell Elite was always clear.  I used to bring binoculars so I could see when I couldnt see through the scope.  I still carry binocs, but when THEY fail from condensation, I use my scope.
....make it count

Offline Swamp Fox

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 227
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2003, 06:45:04 PM »
I noticed the $200.00 price mentioned several times. I found this interesting because my observation is that reasonably good glass seems to start at that price.

I would suggest that before laying down your hard earned pay you visit a shop where you can look at scopes sid by side, preferably with a view that allows you to compare detail at a distance.
"We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can." —Cullen Hightower

Offline jamie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2003, 01:43:45 AM »
Here is why you don't buy cheap scopes.  On my 15"06 encore I put a NC star 4X,I think I paid $35 for it.  It worked so well that me and a friend had a long conversation about it.  Well about 2 hrs later the side blew off it stripping out 4 screws that held the illumination rheostat.  It worked wonderfully for 280 rounds, but 281 killed it.  Good thing I was at the range instead of a hunt.
AMMO...
LiFe, Liberty and the Pursuit of all those that threaten it!

Offline mbinocularshub

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 1
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 06:10:35 PM »
Yeah Bushnell and others are also offering lifetime warranties.

Offline Wayne123

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2009, 10:01:27 AM »
In my opinion the price point at which quality begins is in the $180-$200.  This includes the lower level Nikons, Leupolds and the Bushnell 3200s.  At this point, glass and coatings are clearly better than the cheapos, durability is greatly improved, tracking is consistently repeatable.  The next tier puts you into the Monarchs, VX-IIs, Zeiss Conquest etc and ranges from $300-$600.  The difference between a $50 scope and a $200 one is tremendous.  Between $200 and $500 not nearly as great.  As someone stated earlier, scopes have diminishing returns.  Moving into some of the pricey top end Leupolds and German glass the differences are minute but noticeable.  Better low light performance, better clarity from edge to edge.
Buy the best you can afford.  If the best you can afford is a cheapo, save until you get to the $200 range and buy with confidence.

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 01:53:28 PM »
Without reading all of everyone esle's responses I will tell you that you generally get what you pay for. 

I'm the kind of guy who likes to crank on my windage and elevation rather than holding over when I'm shooting.  I've never broken any of my Leupold MK4's, Sightron SIII, or Burris XTR (some have had issues with the last one).  On the other hand, I've broken two BSA's, two Bushnell Banners and one Simmons.

If nothing is on the line, then a cheaper scope in the middle of the day should get you by.  I personally wouldn't trust a hunt/match/life or death situation on a $50 scope.

Here is a good example of what the more expensive scopes offer, try this with your Tasco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ewpwPTA6Q


Offline bluebayou

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
  • Gender: Male
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2009, 03:47:08 AM »
My 2 cents would be that $30 scopes are not durable and are not consistent.  You ask if they let you shoot better groups?  Yes.  I don't know what you mean about "easier to use". 

If you ever sit down at the bench and waste an hour and a $20 box of ammo trying to figure out why the first shot is 4 inches high, the secon shot 2 inches lower, but you only turned the elevation down 1" then you will understand consistency and tracking.  I had a cheap Simmons that moved up and down when I adjusted the windage left or right........cheap scopes have cheap internal parts.  The cheap scope has mechanical parts that are made with softer, inferior components that are made to looser tolerances.  When you turn the turret then the erector tube moves inside the main scope tube.  The are also springs inside...

I am not bagging on Simmons either, I have 2 old Simmons that are fine.  Most people only sight a rifle in once per year so they rarely get a chance to test the mechanicals of a scope.  Maybe they adjust it and it has to "settle in"  ::) 

I think that you should consider the Bushnell Trophy at $80 to 100.  Even the Banner at about the same price.  This is if you are strapped for cash, but impatient.  Save your spare money, eat peanut butter and pancakes for awhile. 

All things being equal....I agree with the others that the biggest return on your investment is at the $180-200 range.  Bushnell, Leupold VX-1, Nikon Buckmaster or Team Primos, lots or choices.

Offline Drilling Man

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2009, 09:17:06 AM »
  I don't even have a 30 dollar scope on my 22.  Why, well here's an example.  I was at my neighbors out on his deck, and he just doesn't believe in buying anything decent for glass.  He has an on going woodchuck problem, with them digging in his hay barn.  When a chuck was out in the sun, he could shoot at it, but if the chuck was in the darkness of the barn, you couldn't even see to shoot at it.  With my better scope, i had no problem killing a chuck "any place" you could see it, and i did just that.  "That" translates into deer hunting in the late evening, out in the woods, or along a field in the shadows too.

  DM

  BTW, my neighbor now FINALLY thinks he needs a better scope...  lol

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2009, 09:25:22 AM »
Hi folks,

What's the reason for buying "quality" scopes?

I look through my $30 scope and the images are clear; the resolution on the scope is infinitely clearer than i can shoot. so what is it that makes a good scope worth the money? thanks!

toan

There are lots of awesome inexpensive scopes.  I never pay over $200.00.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2009, 01:53:01 AM »
I wish I could get what I wanted in a scope for $200.  However, I like a few extra features, and the scopes in that price range that do offer those features are a joke at best.

There are plenty of good, basic hunting scopes though in the $200 range.

Offline Arier Blut

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2009, 03:15:08 PM »
 A lot of folks are a little snooty with optics. Many are brand loyal and pay a premium for the name. Actually there are better scopes out there for half the price or less. But they don't know enough about optics to discern the difference. So they will spout off if you do not have brand X and spend more than x amount then it is not worth having. Even though your brand Y is 1/3 the price and beats their brand x in every category.

Lately I have been buying only scopes with no fault lifetime warranties. I can care less what the joker who only buys a scope for the name thinks. I buy the best scope I can get for the money. It may be new, used or a closeout model due to changes in options. What this entails is the previous mentioned no fault warranty, superior light transmission, superior clarity and repeatability in adjustment system.


Offline wreckhog

  • Trade Count: (55)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2997
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2009, 02:44:21 PM »
I think that cheap scopes are great for the range. Ie very controlled conditions, with little at stake. Once you go after game, and you have a chance or 2 that you miss, money ceases to be the deciding factor. Guys have no problem spending $200 more so they can get an extra 15 minutes of shooting time, or an extra 25 yards through the trees. I haven't experienced this personally, but to a greater degree, that is why military contractors spend $700 of their own $ on an Aimpoint and a Larue mount, when a $30 red dot from Cabela's does the same thing. When your heart is pounding, who cares what you spent.

Offline beadlescomb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: newbie question: why expensive scopes?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2009, 03:11:30 PM »
i think one of the best deals going is the 4x32 bushnell dusk till dawn for around 70-80 bucks got one on a cva stalker that ive prolly put 300 rounds through its clear and i dont ever plan on shooting it over 100 yards anyway i never turn any of my rifle scopes over 6x because even my heart beat will move the crosshairs off a deers chest at 200 yards if its turned up on 12x